Author Topic: Fact or fiction (Read 807 times)

Cottonwood · « **on:** January 01, 2004, 11:41:35 AM »

The .45-90 was virtually identical to the .45-70 with a longer case, and .45-70 ammunition can safely be fired in .45-90 rifles. This was quite useful on the frontier, where .45-70 Government ammunition was widely distributed, and made the Sharps .45-90 a popular buffalo rifle.

This was copied and pasted from http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

I would just like to know if he the writer is missleading readers here or not.

Kenny what is your take on this?

Cottonwood · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2004, 01:32:30 PM »

Obviousely this is a writer who doesn't know crap about ringing a chamber if one uses a 45-70 cartridge in a chamber for a 45-90. Yes this can be done but he fails to mention about ruining a good barrel.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2004, 04:42:45 PM »

Why would it ruin a barrel? What's the difference here between these two and say the .38 Special and .357 Magnum or the .22 S, L, LR say.

GB

Cottonwood · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2004, 04:58:52 PM »

Graybeard I will repost here what Kenny Wasserburger posted to me over at Shiloh's Forum board, I'm sure he won't mind. I should have stated that it would ruin a chamber instead of the barrel.

Good way to ruin a chamber.

Kirk has several 45-110 originals that have had this done to them, and the ruined Chamber is the end result.

I read the article, he says the 45-3.25 cases came out in 1878 or 79 and yet does not cite any reference to this. Odd as the UMC company first made the 3.25 case in 1883-84 time frame. Noted Game hunter William Picket of Wyomng, was one of the major movers and shakers that finaly go the UMC folks to make a 3.25 case similar to the Brits where using in Express rifle loadings and DGR rifles for the Dark contenent.

Sharps Records are pretty clear the 2.875 or 2-7/8ths case was the longest chambering they ever used. Sharps records are even more clear on the fact that the 45 2-7/8ths case could be loaded with 90-120 grs of powder depending on grade and the care used in filling the case. They offered a 120 gr measure for sale also. Plenty of catalog evidence of that fact. In the 1878 catalog they mention the 45-70 and 45-110 as the only two standard calibers, and others were special order only.

I think the guy is full of BS.

Kenny Wasserburger

I trust Kenny's input on this subject as well as other information he gives. He has far more rounds down range than I will ever be able to put.

Kenny Wasserburger · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2004, 05:43:34 PM »

Graybeard,

I have seen several original Chambers ruined with using 45-70 ammo in a longer 45 chamber. Bp loads often have a wad, this will in the large confines fo the chamber act as a bore obstrution and may ring the chamber. However most of the damage is done from errosion of the bumped up to chamber size bullet and the resultant presure spike at that part of the barrel where said bumped up slug was. This would of course take more then a single firing but over the course of many such rounds damage will occur. Btw I have seen more then a few 22 barrels with ringed chambers over the years from shooting shorts in the LR chamber.

As of this posting in 2 Shiloh Sharps rifles I have over 22,600 rounds of BP loads sent down range. At State, regional, national, and world Championship events.

However, thats just my opinion.

Kenny Wasserburger

Cottonwood · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2004, 06:10:55 PM »

Kenny

If I started right now at shooting 619 rounds a day for 365 days I could catch you :-D But then you would have to stop for me to catch up :roll:

I didn't think you would :lol:

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2004, 01:19:16 PM »

I humbly bow to the esteemed Mr. Wasserburger's much greater experience than mine. I have no reason to doubt what he says. But his explanation is ambigous....and confusing

He is talking apples and oranges as if they are the same. He describes two different conditions. Ringing chambers and chamber erosion; they aren't the same.

Chamber erosion is a very real problem shooting the shorter cartridge in the longer chamber. Not as noticeable shooting modern smokeless powder loaded cartridges such as 38 Special in 357. I fired 300 plus rounds of 38Spl ammunition in a Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum 6 days a week for 2 1/2 years. I then carried that gun for another 10 years in Law enforcement. I Still have that gun and it shows no sign of erosion.

I have seen plenty of evidence that erosion occurs just ahead of the case mouth. I have had to set back more than one barrel in my Varmint guns to get rid of that erosion...for a while.

So even though my 357 mag doesn't show the probelm, my varmints guns sure have. If the throat of a barrel can erode then the chamber ahead of short cartridge sure can.

Blackpowder loaded cartridges seem to be in my limited experience no different. They also erode ahead of the case mouth.

Ringed chambers are different. A ringed chamber is the forming of a ringed swollen section in the chamber usually occuring in the area where the base of the bullet lies when a loaded cartridge is in the chamber.

What causes it is theoretical and subject to discussion(argument usually).

I heard Charles Dell has proven how the ringing happens and can duplicate it. I just got his book, but haven't read up on it yet. Maybe I'll know later this week.

Kenny Wasserburger · « **Reply #7 on:** January 22, 2004, 02:36:02 PM »

Double D,

The bp loads work with a very soft bullet, and usually a wad of some sort. Once the much shorter cartridge is fired in the longer chamber then bullet of 20-1 or 30-1 alloy bumps up to the much larger chamber section, along with a wad behind it you get a bullet that stops for a fraction of time and with the wad, ringed chambers. I have seen several original chambers of 45 2-7/8ths length ruined by just that, firing a shorter 45-70 or 45-90 round in them.

Sir you dont have to bow to me,

as for setting bp barrels back to errosion, am not sure how many rounds it takes, have 2 sharps with bp only loads with over 11,000 rounds and no signs of erosion yet with a bore scope. I am sure it can happen but bp loads are at much less presures and less throat heat perhaps after 50,000 or so?

I have shoot this game for 9 years have never seen a barrel wore out due to it being eroded but seen plenty of them damaged from poor cleaning practices. Now my Highpowers yeah I have wore out a few 308 barrels.

BP loads and loading are a world apart from smokless and highpower. Been there shot Camp Perry a couple times and medals too. Along with Raton and a few medals there too.

So no offense but this is not my first Rodeo.

Kenny Wasserburger

Tony Nielson · « **Reply #8 on:** January 22, 2004, 05:44:24 PM »

"We know of Pope Schuetzen rifles that have been in use for thiry years, and from which 25,000 to 30,000 shots have been fired, and that give as fine accuracy today as ever."

Major N.H. Roberts, The Complete Guide to Handloading, second addition supplement, 1941

I cannot find the exact source to quote at this time but Harry Pope made extensive barrel slugs and chamber casts of his personal Schuetzen rifle over his lifetime to check for any changes. He gave up after 125,000 rounds and noticing no appreciable differences.

Tony