Author Topic: 38 spl only handi rifle  (Read 2408 times)

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Offline Steve Gold

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38 spl only handi rifle
« on: June 22, 2011, 04:04:49 PM »
For my next project I will be building a 16 inch Handi for a suppressor host.

I was thinking that in order to avoid the inevitable free bore jump, to have made up a steel cylinder sized insert to fit the front of the  chamber. This would simulate the throats of a revolver and if sized right eliminate leading.

Before I am told off for even thinking of passing lead through a suppressor .22 users do it all the time, the real issue might be bullet lube getting in the can BUT the firm I fancy getting it from say NO PROBLEM their can is user serviceable for cleaning.

Thoughts and suggestions please!

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 04:44:53 PM »
you  will  like  it

mine  is a 357 mag
my carry gun  is a 357

is your  carry gun a 38?  if  not  just leave it a 357  and save the work
just load  up some  heavy [mine are 185WFN]  loads

will your can  be removable?......mine  services  2 guns
it  originally came with  a 9mm subgun

if  i were starting from scratch   i would  go with  44 mag,,,,,cause  thats what  i hunt with
if  not for  my love  of the 44 mag....the    45 LC  might be your  BEST  choice
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Offline Steve Gold

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 05:27:07 PM »
To true about the 44, I have a 44 mag shortie, It has a slow twist barrel which makes it not spin stabilise subsonic. Though I do load up some backwards bullet 2.5gn trailboss loads for plinking with.

I am ok with the 357 chamber it's just that my lead of choice is 50/50 ww/pb and so far in the 44 it has been good.


Thanks
 

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 07:14:47 PM »
a  subsonic  43   has much   more authority than a subsonic 36   [true calibers]

my  can  just  won't handle the  larger slug

i was considering  a 44  fixed can  built to just resemble a bull barrel

its not legal to hunt with  but  my cat sneeze  loads  are
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline petemi

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 06:41:01 AM »
Why don't you just load .357 brass down to .38 levels?  The jump with a .38 in my .357 doesn't effect accuracy enough to be noticed if at all.  I shoot a lot of lead .38s without a leading problem.  Frankly, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 06:48:11 AM »
Use the biggest dia. lead bullet that will fit the fire formed case mouths, and thus fill the throat; no more leading issues. When you resize cases it makes them ready for jacketed, not lead bullets (in most factory chambers).
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 07:24:31 AM »
Suppressor is a nice idea. I too have thought about it for many years...

But I wouldn't bother with 38 only. To much ordeal to gain nothing. I would simply load the magnum with a heavy bullet like a 190+ grain.  The case cap will be reduced and lo velocity loadings with a heavy bullet will be quiet(er) anyway. Then add the suppressor should be very quiet. Plus the ability to load a magnum at anytime.

CW
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 07:50:16 AM »
Steve,

A friend of mine just bought some 240 grain .358 full wad cutters.  These things are long enough to load in a 38 SPC case and still touch the rifling in a 357 Mag chamber.  They wouldn't work in your wheel gun but would keep you from needing to modify the chamber of your Handi.  If you are interested I will find out the what mold these are from.

BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline oic0

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 08:31:47 AM »
Why don't you just load .357 brass down to .38 levels?  The jump with a .38 in my .357 doesn't effect accuracy enough to be noticed if at all.  I shoot a lot of lead .38s without a leading problem.  Frankly, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Pete

This,

Unless you plan to shoot factory ammo, just load to .38 power levels in .357 brass. I shoot a light load of unique behind some soft lead from my 1894C. Accurate and quiet in its own right. You also get to keep the option of more powerful loads of heavy lead as mentioned above.

Offline Airsporter

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 12:36:53 PM »
I was thinking that in order to avoid the inevitable free bore jump, to have made up a steel cylinder sized insert to fit the front of the  chamber. This would simulate the throats of a revolver and if sized right eliminate leading.

I love outside-the-box thinking.  But this, IMHO, is a very questionable solution to a non-existent problem.  The forcing cone in a revolver is to compensate for mis-alignment issues between 6 separate cylinders (typical) and the barrel, a non-issue with a rifle.  If freebore is a concern, and a Handi has plenty, handload with .360 brass.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 12:46:52 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to just load down .357 mag rounds or am I missing something?

Tony

Offline knight0334

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 01:31:09 PM »
The additional length of the chamber between a .38spl and the Handi's throat isn't a freebore - its just more chamber.   

Freebore is the diameter of the bore, which if sized properly and using the proper sized bullets, it really doesn't cause ill effects to accuracy.   The bullet doesn't wobble because it is swaged to the diameter of the bore.  It is used to increase velocity.   Fine rifle builders often implement freebore into their guns, Weatherby being one of them.

Here is example of freebore just past the forcing cone and before the start of the rifling of my Virginian Dragoon Silhouette.

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Offline Steve Gold

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 02:11:49 PM »
OK guys thanks for the reply's, I shall just go ahead and start assembling the parts to make this rifle.

Thank y'all

Steve

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 02:45:55 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to just load down .357 mag rounds or am I missing something?

Tony

Nope, your spot on what a number of us suggested... ;)

CW
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Offline Dinny

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 02:47:38 PM »
BB,
  Can you please find the mold type for those heavy wadcutters? I am interested in some and perhaps others are too.


Steve,
  I have found that a 200gr cast bullet loaded into 38 Spec brass with 2.5gr of Bullseye is accurate and reasonably quite. The heavy bullet also helped eat-up chamber length before I reamed my 357 Mag Handi to the Max.


Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 04:00:26 PM »
I'm interested to know more about those heavy wadcutters too.

  I can see the apeal of a 38 special only carbine as a suppressor host.  I wouldn't start with a Handi.  Given that the Handi is already available in 357 and like everybody has said, that's fine as it is.  If I really wanted a 38 special carbine I'd look at rebarreling something like a Martini or maybe a Rolling block.  I've seen Rolling blocks in 43 caliber going for reasonable money to be used as a 'donor gun'.

  If the goal is quiet Handi, the load is the logical and economical place to start.  If the goal is a 38 special carbine, then stub an old single shot of some kind.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 04:34:14 PM »
Just what I always wanted to be, a wadcutter broker. ;D  I will head over the local candy store tomorrow and ask them what mold they are using.    I will post what I find.

BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 04:50:57 PM »
here is a good video   in  44 mag....read the comments on you-tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMeacFXNZA&feature=related
 

but  if you have to have a 357  get one of these

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine77357/specSheets/7405.html

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DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 04:56:50 PM »
but  if you have to have a 357  get one of these
http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine77357/specSheets/7405.html

1:16" twist, 18.5" stainless barrel and only 5.5lbs!!!  I like it already, hopefully it's a shooter. Too bad magazine length may keep it from being a 357 Maxi repeater.

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 05:12:30 PM »
IMHO the big Martini or Rem. 'Roller' is too big for a project like this, though if it is what ya got........
The small Martini '.310 Cadet' size or the Mdl. 12 or 12/15 action, which is only 1/4ish inch thicker is the right proportions.
As said, since the H&R comes in .357 that is the thing to use and just download the cases or use that long bullet in 38Spl. cases.
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Offline Spanky

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 06:07:26 PM »
I'm going to my dealer tomorrow to see if I can get my hands on one of those Ruger 357's. ;)
Me likey... me likey alot. ;D ;D



Spanky

Offline Dinny

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 06:12:27 PM »
Steve,
  Also......I know of someone who stubs Handi barrels and chambers them for .38 Spec Target. Send me an email, if interested. ;) His barrel will be threaded and crowned. ;) ;)

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline Spanky

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 06:27:54 PM »
Steve,
  Also......I know of someone who stubs Handi barrels and chambers them for .38 Spec Target. Send me an email, if interested. ;) His barrel will be threaded and crowned. ;) ;)

Thanks, Dinny



And the work will be top notch!! ;) I've been saving my pennies for one of his barrels.



Spanky

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 08:14:58 PM »
BB,
  Can you please find the mold type for those heavy wadcutters? I am interested in some and perhaps others are too.


I have a Lyman mold that casts a .358" 170 grain wad cutter.  If you're interested I'll dig it out and get you the mold number.   This bullet shoots well in my revolvers and I shot a few through a friend's 94 Win .357 mag and as I recall, it was a good shooter in  that gun too...

Tony 

Tony

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 02:29:17 AM »
but  if you have to have a 357  get one of these
http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine77357/specSheets/7405.html

1:16" twist, 18.5" stainless barrel and only 5.5lbs!!!  I like it already, hopefully it's a shooter. Too bad magazine length may keep it from being a 357 Maxi repeater.

Thanks, Dinny

  That sure is a neat little item from Ruger.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2011, 09:26:27 AM »
Went to the gun shop and the fellow who casts the bullets was off today.   I talked to the manager and he said he is 99% sure the 240 grain .358 wadcutters are from a custom made mold.  He will find out and let me know. 

BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2011, 07:50:59 PM »


  240?  The standard .358 wadcutters have been 148 grain.

   I used to shoot with a guy that was into knocking down the steel animals back when that was popular. He used a 6" M28 S&W loaded with a 200 grain bullet intended for .35 Remington. I never thought about it before but that would make a good cat sneeze load.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tuff

Offline Dinny

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2011, 07:54:35 PM »
I never thought about it before but that would make a good cat sneeze load.

My thoughts exactly!  ;)


Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2011, 02:14:58 AM »
IMHO the big Martini or Rem. 'Roller' is too big for a project like this, though if it is what ya got........
The small Martini '.310 Cadet' size or the Mdl. 12 or 12/15 action, which is only 1/4ish inch thicker is the right proportions.
As said, since the H&R comes in .357 that is the thing to use and just download the cases or use that long bullet in 38Spl. cases.

  Good point about the 450 Martinis or the #1 Rollers.  Better to pick a 'baby' rolling block or a Cadet for such a small cartridge.  There are bunches of single shot actions out there and not all of them are in 'collectable' pristine condition.  Originals that can be mechanicaly fixed but are too far gone for a real 'resto' or reproductions that have been abused and got rusty or whatever.  I keep my eyes peeled and you can find workable actions for reasonable money from time to time.  In general, these are meant for black powder cartridges, but if you keep the chamber down the 38 special length and never put a magnum into it you could go smokeless with a good solid example of some of the older actions. 

  One way to go if you really want a 38 special only rifle would be to turn back the shank on a 357 Uberti Baby Rolling Block.  I did it to convert a 9mm Largo Spanish Destroyer to 9x19mm.  It's easy.  Just remove the barrel, face the shoulder back enough for the barrel to screw into the receiver one more turn and face the chamber accordingly.  It just screws in that much shorter.  It's important to measure accurately so the sights are back on top when you are done  ;).  Anyway, the chamber is now that much shorter.  You may need to touch it up with a hand reamer.  You'll also need to file the extractor notch or notches back in.  No big deal.

  Neither of those options is as cheap or as easy as getting started on loading.  That is the best dollars for doughnuts way to solve the problem of feeding a suppressed 357 Handi.  I'm just throwing out ideas because you have got me thinking, so I'm sharing my thoughts.

  On another note, I don't think that a chamber spacer will do what you want it to in this case.  I think it may impart distortion to the bullet before it touches the rifling.  Much more so than you'll get by shooting specials through a magnum chamber.  Really, the extra chamber length is less of an issue in a break open rifle than  it is in a revolver where the chamber and the barrel are two pieces.  If there is any accuracy potential loss, I'm unaware of it.  I shoot some specials through my magnum and have never noticed anything that made me want to fix anything.  I load up mild magnums for it because 1) it's cheaper and 2) Full lenght brass will tend to prevent chamber fouling.

  That's another issue, putting a 'forcing cone' in there may create a lead build up point in your barrel.

Offline jedman

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Re: 38 spl only handi rifle
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2011, 02:58:46 AM »
  This is a picture of the 240 gr. wadcutter to the right of a 148 gr. WC. that bikerbeans has mentioned.
  The bullet is .875 long, The shank is .625 long @.357 dia and the nose is about .250 long and .350 dia.
  I tried to push one of these into the bore at the muzzle end of my .357 handi nose first and its a tight fit meaning its a bore rider type bullet.
 I bought them to experiment with and if I could get them to shoot well enough they would make a good med. game bullet with the big meplat this thing has.
  The problem I see in this bullet is not enough lube for a bullet this size, before I shoot them I want to fill the upper two grooves with lube or coat the whole bullet with Alox as the nose section does ride the lands in my rifle.     Jed
Current handi family, 24 ga./ 58 cal ,50-70,  45 smokeless MZ, 44 belted bodeen, 44 mag,.375 H&R (wildcat),375 Win.,357 max, .340 MF ( wildcat ), 8 mm Lebel, 8x57, .303 British, 270 x 57 R,(wildcat) 256 Win Mag, 2 x 243 Win,2 x 223 Rem. 7-30 Waters &20ga.,