Long range 45-70 Handi

[keith44]

I am something of a pack rat when it comes to gun related magazines and books.  I actually pull older magazines out of my stash and re- read things of interest.  An article in Rifle magazine number 209 (from September of 2003) talks about a Trapdoor Springfield Rifle, and military testing conducted in May of 1879.  The testing of a period rifle (with 32 inch barrel) and the military tests prove that the old "battle rifle" would shoot 600 yard groups of 12 inches.  The carbine version of the Springfield had a 22 inch barrel, just as the Handi rifle does.  Has anyone punched paper or other targets at a range beyond normal hunting distances just to see how far a Handi will group?  I'm talking about only the 45-70's here, not a round designed for 300 or 400 yard shooting.

[S.E.Ak]

At the Sandy Hook trials the 45/70 vetted itself at a mile

[ham7777]

A few years back I shot a Buffalo Classic at 600 yards at a highpower rifle target. I was able to keep it in the 9 and 10 ring once I had my zero. I was in the the prone postion and using a Marble peep sight and Lyman front sight with a post.
Today I was shooting with my son and shot one of my Shirkari 45-70 with an old 10X Weaver scope at a metal groundhog at 325 yards off the bench and was having no trouble hitting it.
Both times was using hand loads with 300 gr.half jacketed bullets (Rem.) and 2400 powder 28.0gr.

Later Tom

[keith44]

actually final tests were at 3,500 yards (20 yards short of 2 miles) and 3,680 yards.  At that range though the target was 44 feet wide, 22 feet tall, and angled at 80 degrees so that the now falling bullets would hit the penetration boards squarely instead of at an angle.  The 500 grain service load (launched by black powder ) still penetrated 1 1/2 inches of hardwood boards.

Now that's old school punkin chunkin 

[keith44]

good shootin' Tom.

What is the barrel length on the BC??  Is that close to the 32 inch length of the service rifle? 

Shirkari? is that the H&R built trapdoor clone?? 

[gcrank1]

Search online for BPCR silhouette and target competitions, the 45-70 is the cartridge of choice for most and one is limited only by 'one's enthusiasm'.

[bikerbeans]

keith,

A factory 45-70 BC barrel is 32".

BB

[keith44]

Search online for BPCR silhouette and target competitions, the 45-70 is the cartridge of choice for most and one is limited only by 'one's enthusiasm'.

I am aware of the competitions and the top guns there are 40-65, 45-70, and 45-90's in Sharps and Remington Rolling blocks.  A Handi along side a Sharps at the 1,000 yard shooting line would be a sight!

[quickdtoo]

See the long range sight links and John Boy's 1000yd BC thread in the FAQs for long range H&Rs in action.

Tim

[keith44]

Oh, forgot to look there, thanks Tim.

[knight0334]

I've exploded a few groundhog in the 500yrd to 600yrd range with my Buff Classic 45-70, Buff Classic 45-120, and my Handi 45-70 - does that count?

[keith44]

Yes sir it does!!  500 yards...what bullet ya usin' for that?

[bikerbeans]

Yes sir it does!!  500 yards...what bullet ya usin' for that?

Keith,

Bold text below is from one of knight0334's posts.

BB

The Handi model with it's 22" barrel wont really gain much with a 45-120.   You almost NEED the 32" Buffalo Classic barrel to make it worth rechambering to 45-120.   Heck, the 22" barrel doesn't even take the 45-70 to it's full potential - with a 45-120 it'd just waste powder being burnt in the air outside the barrel with a 22" tube.

BTW, I'm on the list of 45-120 owners here..   I did mine right after Tim did his a few years ago.

I'm pushing hogged out(bored/drilled out) 300gr JHP's weighing 250-265gr to 2800-3000fps with my 45-120.  Pushing full 300gr slugs to 2700-2800fps.   I don't shoot anything heavier because my 45-120 is a groundhog gun.   I wont give out loadings because I use a duplex load to keep the pressure spike low, but retain a sustained pressure throughout the bullet's transit down the tube.

[keith44]

Thanks BB

That explains it.  Typical 45-70 projectiles won't "blow up" much of anything, at the normal velocities.  lightened 300 grain projectiles with the right duplex load could get 3,000 fps which certainly would cause rapid expansion of the projectile.

[ham7777]

K44 the Shirkari is older model H&R made in the 70's it has a 28" barrel.It is a neat looking rifle with a brass cleaning rod under the barrel. There is one on Gunbroker for sell right now it was at 175 last time I looked. Later Tom 

[rdlange]

There's a Shikari 3hrs away from me for $250.  Too far for that price today.

How 'hot' can I load this gun? Or am I 'stuck' with factory loads.  Understand it has the old frame.

Be Well...

[quickdtoo]

The Shikari handles SAAMI 28kpsi (trapdoor) loads only, it has a cast iron frame.

Tim

[zoot686]

Are the frames really just cast iron, or is that just what folks here call them?

[quickdtoo]

Are the frames really just cast iron, or is that just what folks here call them?

H&R Inc only made ductile cast iron frames, similar to H&R 1871 SB1 frames, modern SB2 rifle frames made by H&R 1871 ( '87 and later) are heat treated investment cast alloy steel, spend some time reading the FAQs sticky, all this info and a lot more can be found there. 

Tim

[XD40SC]

I can hit a 8 inch gong every time at 200 yds using the Williams Target Sights. My next move will be 300 yds. Using Rem. 405 gr bullets.

[keith44]

I can hit a 8 inch gong every time at 200 yds using the Williams Target Sights. My next move will be 300 yds. Using Rem. 405 gr bullets.

Now that's in line with the "original" loads performance from a carbine

[bikerbeans]

I can hit a 8 inch gong every time at 200 yds using the Williams Target Sights. My next move will be 300 yds. Using Rem. 405 gr bullets.

Now that's in line with the "original" loads performance from a carbine

I can hit a bowling pin everytime @ 200 yards, but I cheat.  Jacketed bullet, 4 12 40 scope and a rest.

BB

[XD40SC]

I can hit a 8 inch gong every time at 200 yds using the Williams Target Sights. My next move will be 300 yds. Using Rem. 405 gr bullets.

Now that's in line with the "original" loads performance from a carbine

I can hit a bowling pin everytime @ 200 yards, but I cheat.  Jacketed bullet, 4 12 40 scope and a rest.

BB

I can hit a 8 inch gong every time at 200 yds using the Williams Target Sights. My next move will be 300 yds. Using Rem. 405 gr bullets.

Now that's in line with the "original" loads performance from a carbine

Yep- I load them to the orginal load velocity. Lot's of fun and easy on my shoulder. I can lift my head and watch the bullet hit the gong at 200 yds.

[keith44]

BB that ain't cheatin' that's using adaptive devices. (also called tools by the knuckle draggers)

[gcrank1]

Not exactly 'long range', but reaching out there a bit; yesterday I had a chance to trial my SS UH at 100 to 250ish yds. It is scoped, old Weaver 3x, and the loads were 405 Lee HB of WWt and homemade 'stinky lube', powder IMR3031 in 34 and 38 gr. charges (est. 1250-1300ish fps.
The nice thing about this place is it is up a hill, looking down on an open field. Once the ground is worked it is easy to 'pick spots' in the dirt to shoot at without setting or retrieving targets. No, cant measure groups, but if the spots disappear or flip you are on 'em pretty good.
That scope has the old 'Range Finding Reticule' said to have been urged by Elmer Keith (a fine line a given distance under the main crosshair). It was easy to sort elevation out there and the lead was going where it was looking. A woodchuck would have been in serious trouble and a few crows would likely have gone under too, if that had been the hunt.

[zoot686]

K44 the Shirkari is older model H&R made in the 70's it has a 28" barrel.It is a neat looking rifle with a brass cleaning rod under the barrel.

I'm thinking it was offered with a 22" barrel as well.

[quickdtoo]

The model 155 Shikari was offered in 45-70 and 44 Mag, 24" and 28" blued barrel, folding rear sight, case colored frame, walnut stained hardwood straight grip buttstock w/brass cleaning rod, mfrd 1973-1981.

Tim

[zoot686]

I've had two over the years, the first had the 28" barrel and was purchased new.
Got poor and sold it.
Felt so bad about dumping that rifle, that when a local gun shop had one pop up used, I bought it even though the barrel didn't have a speck of the original finish left on it and had been badly cold blued.
And the barrel is not 28"...........no way, no how.
It doesn't have the original cleaning rod, and after 20 years of rain and snow, as I take it to the deer stand when the weather is nasty, it doesn't have much finish on the stock.
But it sure does shoot nice, and I've never had a deer take more than a few steps after getting hit by those 300 grain copper jacketed cannon balls*grin*
Honestly, I like it almost as much as my favorite rolling block.

[quickdtoo]

The model 155 Shikari was offered in 45-70 and 44 Mag, 24" and 28" blued barrel, folding rear sight, case colored frame, walnut stained hardwood straight grip buttstock w/brass cleaning rod, mfrd 1973-1981.

Tim

[Sourdough]

Many years ago a buddy and I found an old trapdoor 45-70, hidden under the floor boards of a cabin in an old abandoned town.  US Springfield, infantry model, complete with bayonet.  It was in near perfect condition.  Folding site on the rear marked in yards out to 800 or 1000 yards.  We took it out and practiced shooting out to 500 yards.  We thought we were doing good just to hit the 4X4 cardboard target frame.  Always wondered if i could have really hit anything out at longer distances with that old gun.

Questions like this brings to mind thoughts of Billy Dixon and his Long Range Shot.  Even if it was not a 45-70, it was still an old Black Powder cartridge that did that shooting.  Many 45-70 cases were found during an modern archeological dig at the site.  This proves the 45-70 was also used for the long range shooting the Buffalo Hunters made to keep the Indians back