BP vs SMOKELESS LUBES

[DON IN VA]

:-)
OK gents, I'm still scratching the surface of this BP loading game but I haven't lost interest even though my work the last few months has not allowed me the time to dive in as quickly as I'd anticipated when I purchased my first Sharps a few months ago.
But here's one fer ye that I haven't quite been able to discern from my limited reading.  
I reload for 45-70 in smokyless and have purchased some cast bullets for same on e-bay.  I bought some in .405 gr. and more recently some in 500 gr. for the Sharps.  OK I'm getting to the question now,  how do I know if the lube on these bullets is for BP or smokeless or is there much difference ?  Is there one type of lube that will work for both and what type is the best for the BP loads  ?  
I'm not into casting my own yet even though I have cast some muzzleloader bullets (maxi-balls) so probably what I'll shoot for the time being is (store bought).

[cooper]

If they didn't tell you what the lube was, I would assume that it's a smokeless lube.  In addition to the lube, bullets made specifically for blackpowder are usually made of soft alloy (20:1 or 30:1 lead to tin, or thereabouts).  So what I'm saying is that a BP bullet will be softer than normal and have a special lube - and if that was the case, you would think the seller would mention it.

If you want to stick with one lube for both BP and smokeless, then it should be a BP lube.  BP lubes will work fine with smokeless, as long as the MV is not too high.  I would say you can use most BP lubes up to a MV of 1800-2000 fps (? - comments welcome on this.  I have never shot a cast lead bullet with BP lubes this fast).  So if you're using the smokeless to duplicate BP loads, and the MV is in the 1100-1400 fps range, a BP lube will work fine.

There are lots of BP lubes, and dozens of recipes for home-made.  SPG was one of the original commercial BP lubes, and it works great.  

Here are 2 simple homemade formulae:  50/50 beeswax and olive oil (use the cheap grade of olive oil.  I would think that any other vegetable oil should work fine also).  

My favorite is 50% beeswax, 40% Crisco (the solid, white stuff in a can), and 10% vegetable oil.  This is know as "Emmerts" formula.

[hiram]

My understanding is that a smokeless lube can have petroleum additives.  A BP lube should be petroleum additive free.  The reason I have read is that if you use a smokeless(petroleum base) lube with BP, the products from firing form a tarry, sticky fouling in the bore.

[JBMauser]

cooper, those formulas are by volume not weight correct?  I am looking for the same thing.  I want to lube some 405hb lee bullets and stuff them with BP and the newfangled grey powders as well.  One lube for both would work well.  Velocities will be modest with the grey stuff.  Are the formulas you mentioned very stiff, Are they best applied with a pan and cutter or can they load into a lube sizer?  Thanks, JB

[JBMauser]

cooper, those formulas are by volume not weight correct?  I am looking for the same thing.  I want to lube some 405hb lee bullets and stuff them with BP and the newfangled grey powders as well.  One lube for both would work well.  Velocities will be modest with the grey stuff.  Are the formulas you mentioned very stiff, Are they best applied with a pan and cutter or can they load into a lube sizer?  Thanks, JB

[Cuts Crooked]

JB,

Yup! By Volume!

BTW, a "net pal" of mine has xperimented with peanut oil in place of the crisco/olive oil and found it to be VERY good! Apparently it stand up to heat better.

[cooper]

JB - good question!  I do mine by weight, although I do think the original recipe was by volume.  But none of the ingredients is significantly heavier than any of the others - so it shouldn't make too much difference one way or the other.

It works GREAT for pan lubing - and you can remelt it as often as you want and it doesn't seem to affect it (and this is not true of all lubes).

As far as its texture - go ahead and vary the proportions of ingredients if it is not as hard or soft as you want.  It's not a "sticky" lube.  In the middle of a real hot summer you may want to kick the beeswax up to 60% and drop the oil (or crisco and oil) down to 40%.

[445supermag]

I am not casting yet to cold out. If you buy bullits from of the average makers that cast cheep bullits, get them un sized and unlubed. That way you can inspect them / weigh them.  Size them to your desire or not. Use a lube that is for black powder (i use spg) that can be used pan or sizer. By useing known products you will keep most of the mestakes out of your loading. I buy ready cast and lubed from bufflo arms that look and shoot good. I have bought none lubed or sized bullits and had about half that were not perfict dent,s , not filed out or the weight was not constint. Most bulk bullits are hard brcause they are shipped bulk and are thrown around by the delivery survice. Bufflo arms are sen,t in a styrafome box, each bullit in it,s own hole/ 50 per box. This way you don,t have to buy a lot of molds to see what the rifle likes. Once you find a bullit ti likes get a factory mold that cast that bullit or i hope you saved at least one of the bullits that shot good and send it to a custom maker to match that bullet as cast.

[The Platte County Kid]

I guess I'll throw my two cents worth in. When I started using BP for my 45/70 Roller, I went with Shavers lube with the moly. My dealings with moly lubricants goes back to the days when I was racing. The moly will eventualy fill all the microscopic pores in the barrel and create such a slick surface, it will be hard for any lead to stick. The stuff is great. When you start lubin your bullets with Shavers lube, your fingers will get so slick it is almoct impossible to pick up one of thos Lyman pointy bullets out of the styrofoam bullet carrier. (I use those cause I don't like my bullets bumpin around)  We then started using Shavers lube on our 8mm Lead for the Mausers. I have yet to have a problem with fouling or leading in the bore. We are using smokeless for them. So in short, I would use Shavers Lube for all of your lead bullet reloading.

The Platte County Kid    

[JBMauser]

what is Shavers lube, store bought or home blend.  Does it keep the fouling soft as SPG & emerits and the others listed do?  I don't understand if this is a great BP lube that can hold up to higher cast smokeless velocity.
I guess the moly is not affected by BP, or is it?  Please expound.  I would like to find one BP based lube that will also hold up for higher velocity cast bullets.  JB

[The Platte County Kid]

The Lube I am talking about is Black Powder Lube Developed by Lee Shaver www.egunsmith.com It is my belief and many others that it out performs SPG lube. I also use it with 8 x 57 Mauser with 190gr Lead Bullets, with Smokeless. The stuff works great. In my BPCR roller I always use a blow tube between shots. Never had a problem. Buffalo Arms also carries it.

The Kid