Author Topic: The end of H-R? Something to consider! (Read 2668 times)

JimG · « **on:** February 18, 2011, 09:16:08 AM »

Althought the purchase of T/C by Rem is only a rumor right now, it is a very big rumor that no industry insiders have denied. H-R owners need to consider this- Rem has toyed with the single shot rifle and shotguns for awhile now (remember the imported Spartan line for example?) and now H-R. What if H-R is not what Rem really had in mind and T/C's Contender and Encore is? Remember according to the rumor, S/W keeps the modern bolt action rifle design (Icon, etc) and Rem gets the rest. That means this may be the last year for H-R. No more parts, no more accessory barrels, no more factory support. All Rem has to do is claim the H-R line has not met profit expectations and that they are shutting it down in favor of the 'superior' T/C models. Whether H-R is profitable or not is besides the fact. End of story for the H-R lovers. I have no insider info, this is just some common sense reasoning. Until we hear something definate from Rem I feel as though this is something we all should consider in our purchases. Maybe not buying anymore H-R products for now is the answer for some, others may want to stock up as much as possible on parts and models that they have wanted for some time now. Just something to consider!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2011, 09:29:36 AM »

Oh boy, here we go again with more Chicken Little thinking!!

It would make a little sense if the Encore and Contender were priced close to an H&R, but they aren't even in the same ball park! I seriously don't think Remington(Freedom Group) went to the expense of moving H&R(and Marlin) production to Ilion with thoughts of ending the product line a few years later!

Tim

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2011, 10:02:57 AM »

They would still need something to compete with the lower end Optimas and Rossis - and they do offer a pretty good range of calibers (H&R, that is, not Optima). My guess would be that it won't happen any time soon. What I do fear is that we will continue to see the price inflation we have seen in H&Rs over the last couple of years get even worse. After all, they are in business to make money.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2011, 10:06:38 AM »

If they did close it down then people like Tim, my self and some others are sitting on a real whirlwind should we ever decide to sell out!

LONGTOM

Troyboy · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »

If they did go away then they would be vintage and collectible. Then maybe they would get the respect they deserve.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:13:42 AM »

S&W owns T/C don't they

Sourdough · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »

Right S.E.Ak: If memory serve me correctly Smith and Wesson, just bought Thompson Center last month. This distresses me in that what is going to happen to the TCR parts, TC has been holding for years and sending out as needed. I shoot TCRs and Contenders.

The Encore is a piece of crap, not worth messing with. The only way to hit the broad side of a barn, with an Encore, is from the inside. The Encore makes a good muzzleloader. Give me a handi anyday.

JimG · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:10:54 PM »

S.E.A.k- Yes S/W did own T/C, the rumor is that Rem has bought most (not all) of T/C. S/W would continue to hold onto the centerfire bolt action rifle line.

Quickdtoo- Not chicken little thinking at all. The Freedom Group (previously CEREBUS) has been doing some odd things of late. Like I said something to consider. Why would F.G. want multiple model lines of single shot rifles and shotguns? The T/C guys on various forums on the 'net are already thinking that Rem will drop the Contender and just concentrate on the Encore. Who knows what will happen with what's left of T/C's traditional ML's. Rem dropping H-R is NOT, repeat NOT what I want to see happen. I've owned three T/C products and have not been happy with any of them. With the exeption of my .204 I've been at least satisfied with my H-R's. A couple of them have performed extremely well.

guns-o-fun- As for competing with the Spainish guns, well I don't think we as Americans building firearms in America can compete if you look at the whole picture. It's costs too much to build a firearm compared to Spain. Labor, lawyers, lawsuits, taxes, etc. We can build a good firearm but not at the price point of the Spainish guns. Just look at a Scout or an Apex from CVA. Wow do they look good! I hear they shoot darn good too. The Scout is at the same price point as the Handi. I can see Rem saying the heck with it and letting CVA have that portion of the market and concentrate on Encores. Just a thought, although not a nice one.

JimG · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:12:26 PM »

Sourdough- S/W bought T/C a good while ago. I hesitate to state a definate month and year because I really can't remember but I think it was a good two + years ago.

joeyant · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:41:47 PM »

I was looking at a used T/C .223 and the guy wants $600 for it.
He is also selling a T/C .22LR barrel and he wants an additional $220 for barrel alone.
So together, $820 easily.

I just purchased a used Handi .223 that came with a 12 ga Pardner barrel and an NC Star illuminated 1.5-6X40 rangefinder scope------all for $180 bucks!

I doubt that H&R is going away. There are no other like it in the same price range.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:52:34 PM »

So what's the point in worrying about something you have no control over?

If you want a certain rifle or barrel I don't think the fact that "something might happen" would be the end of the world.

Somethings have been happening for a long time now so just take it a day at a time and be thankful for all those past!

Worst thing that could happen is we become the envy of the shooting world because we own Handi's.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2011, 02:34:47 PM »

Quote from: JimG on February 18, 2011, 12:10:54 PM

The Freedom Group (previously CEREBUS) has been doing some odd things of late.

Cerberus owns Freedom Group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Group

Quote from: Sourdough on February 18, 2011, 12:05:20 PM

Right S.E.Ak: If memory serve me correctly Smith and Wesson, just bought Thompson Center last month.

Smith & Wesson bought TC over 4yrs ago, they closed the TC Rochester plant not long ago.

http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=942841&highlight

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101209/GJNEWS_01/712099667

Littlepage · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:28:29 PM »

Remington has bolt actions /Marlin has bolt actions
Remington has pump and semi auto shot guns/ H&R has imported pump and semi auto shot guns.
I think H&R single shots will live on.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2011, 04:25:51 PM »

I have not been into handi's but for the last 3 years, but I can assure anyone that with proper care and feeding a handi lifespan will probably exceed a human;s, I know of well cared for H&R shotguns 60 + years old that still do just fine. I expect my grandchildren to have the most use from mine. I am more concerned about somewhere to shoot and things to shoot at. I must say that the fear factor in the last few years have made for one of the best periods for gun makers since Sam made his first cylinder.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2011, 04:29:50 PM »

There's snow in the forecast, I better go buy some bread and milk!

LONGTOM · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2011, 04:48:27 PM »

Quote

The Encore is a piece of crap, not worth messing with. The only way to hit the broad side of a barn, with an Encore, is from the inside.

I will take exception to this one.
Myself and a couple of buddies have a few that you better have a very good shooting gun if you want to shoot with them.
My best one will do 5 inside a dime at 100 with factory ammo.

Quote

The Encore makes a good muzzleloader.

Again, I will take exception to this also.
I have had three of them and I know of at least six more that won't shoot within 4" at 100.
I can name you at least three TC MZs that will cut under 2" at 100 and with a scope will do 1" if I do my part but the Encore aint one of them.
My Pro Hunter don't do bad but it can't stay with my Traditions or my buddies Lyman Great Plains 54!!!

Now you may have a bad Encore or a very good Encore MZ and if so you are among the few with both!

LONGTOM

zackyholdem · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:25:55 AM »

its highly unlikely that remington would just discontinue h&r, in all likelyhood they would sell it to another manufacturer and get their money back.... and with that being said remington isn't going to get rid of h&r anytime soon

dave29 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:42:56 AM »

If this sale happens (or already happened), I don't see anything changing other than maybe the Contender line being dropped. The Encore can handle big calibers that the Handi cannot.

Flynmoose · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2011, 04:18:57 PM »

+1 on what LONGTOM said about the Encore centerfires. Mine have been very accurate
and are "keepers" in my book.
FM

trotterlg · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2011, 04:45:02 PM »

I say Remington sells H&R to Rossi, Rossi blends the two together, (the Wizzard barrels already fit the H&R frames), Rossi then snarfs H&R and owns the entire dirt cheap rifle segment. Sounds like a plan to me. Larry

Sourdough · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2011, 06:17:20 PM »

LONGTOM & Flynmoose: My T/C Encore Muzzleloader can bust 4" clay targets anywhere from 50 to 250 yards. I can not say what kind of grouping it does because I have never shot it at paper.

Now as for the Encore centerfire rifles, I have owned: 22-250, 1 1/2" at 100 yards was as tight as I could get it. .243 2" group at 100. 30-06 While it shot a 1" group at 100 yards at 300 yards it spread out to over 8 inches. .35 whelen, another 2" group at 100 yrds. .338 Win Mag, 2 3/4" at 100, off the paper at 300 (12X12" targets). My neighbor has a .416 Rigby barrel, we met one day at the range. I put his Rigby barrel on my Encore. One shot was all it took for me to realize I did not want one. While I hit the Bullseye (along the edge) I did not want to duplicate that shot. No the scope did not get me, but it hurt my whole body. About 20 minutes alter I drove Mike to the Hospital on Ft WW for 4 stitches, scope on .416 got him.

Maybe you guys can make the rifle barrels work, but they just did not come in for me. But I will say my buddy has a Knight, and we are not allowed to use a scope on muzzleloaders, here in Alaska. I use a peep site, and I can shoot rings around him. He, nor I can hit our clay targets beyond 150 yards with his Knight, Yet I can bust them every shot with my Encore. He can hit with my Encore at 200 yards, and with a little practice I bet he could hit them at 250, he just lacks the incentive. I use Federal 209 primers, 777 powder, and Power Belt bullets.

pmeisel · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2011, 06:48:51 PM »

I think it's easy to see what Freedom Group is doing. They have accumulated good brands and product lines, while cutting duplicate overhead and administration. Consolidating production in their more modern facilities, and administration at Remington's HQ in NC.

Just good business.

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2011, 04:35:35 AM »

I only own 2 NEF/H&R's, a 12 guage that was my first gun and a 22 WMR Ultra Varmint. The biggest threat to H&R is the retail prices that seem to be creeping upwards. I was looking at a 22 Hornet(and I still am), but at $300 for a basic synthetic/blue rifle they are starting to get into cheap bolt gun territory in 223's, 22-250's, etc. There are some very dedicated Handi people on here, but it takes more of a mass market appeal to keep things going. Imho,when you lose the $$ appeal, the common man looking for a hunting rifle is going to go with the one that goes bang more than once, Stevens, Marlin, Axis, etc.

BTW--My Encore MZ shoots 300grn Shockwaves into an inch and a half with 100 grns of T7 pellets. I'm sure it would do better with loose powder.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2011, 08:04:39 AM »

I would suggest we look at what happened to the muzzleloading rifles in the last 10-15 years.
We went from quite a good selection of traditional looking rifles to inlines. Cheap inlines at first. The bottom kind of fell out on the traditional rifle market except among the hard core. The poor, cheap inlines are gone, now they are much more expensive, but so are good traditional rifles.
Likewise, look at the 'black-gun' market. I like wood and blued steel, revolvers, etc. What is selling? Plastic stocked 'black-guns' and semi-auto pistols.
Dont need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing.........

watkibe · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:42:24 PM »

This type of scenario has occurred to me before now. With so many shooting sports companies being gobbled up by bigger and bigger corporations, fewer and fewer senior managers, CEOs, and CFOs have control of the industry whose products we love. Some of these new owners have many other diverse product lines, aren't philosophically committed to the firearms industry, and may not be shooters or hunters at all. We may see iconic companies disappear overnight, based either on profitability, or simply because the guy(s) at the top are PC liberals who are concerned about being "good corporate citizens" by stopping "the flow of guns killing our children, our police officers, and giving drug cartels more firepower than law enforcement."

Call me "chicken little" if you want to; sometimes I am chicken little, hahaha !!!

Bigeasy · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:38:04 AM »

Remington would not purchase H&R with the intent to put them out of business unless they were in direct competition with similar Remington products. Like any business decision, profit is the motive. As long as Handi's sell well, and turn a profit, they will be in production. I have no idea of sales numbers, but judging from the number of Hand owners out there, they are quite popular.

Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2011, 05:39:48 AM »

Here are the firearms production stats for 2009, H&R made 38,589 rifles and 46,365 shotguns, 84,954 total.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2009-firearms-manufacturers-export-report.pdf

2008 production was 44,484 rifles and 57,345 shotguns for a total of 101,829.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2008-firearms-manufacturers-export-report.pdf

Tim

trotterlg · « **Reply #27 on:** February 21, 2011, 05:47:25 AM »

If that trend continues it will hit Zero in about 4 years. Larry

pmeisel · « **Reply #28 on:** February 21, 2011, 11:27:36 AM »

Tim, thanks for the numbers.

If we just guess at an average wholesale price of $250 each, that would suggest annual revenue in the range of $20 to $25 million.

That's not very big for a manufacturing business. But it's a nice market niche for Freedom Group to have covered with already developed products that have an identity and following, as opposed to the ugly-duckling-no-heritage Rossi.

I think Freedom Group is run by smart businessmen. If you're reading, guys, and need a manufacturing cost expert, I'd like to work for you....

carbineman · « **Reply #29 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:29:01 PM »

I've dealt with the H&R customer service and now the CVA customer service. I'm glad these two companies are still in business, but I don't know how.

Is it just me or as Clark Howard calls it, Customer Nonservice?