500 yards.....!!!!!

[tucoblue]

Acquaintence of mine just bought a new Knight Stainless Steel something or other. Will shoot it with 3 Pyrodex pellets and unknown bullets. Has it mounted with a Swarovski ?? power super scope. Paid over $1700.00 for the rig. Was told it will surely kill a deer at 500 yards. How 'bout that? Any thoughts?

[Ramrod]

Lots of folks have more money than brains nowadays. :roll:

Ramrod

[simonkenton]

A $1200 scope on a muzzleloader so you can make 500 yard shots on deer. Man that is something.

At what range will it kill Bigfoot?

If you got a shot with this rifle at Bigfoot at 500 yards,  would you go for the neck shot or a head shot? I mean, if Bigfoot was standing still, of course.

[RandyWakeman]

Any thoughts?

Very few.

[woodseye]

Lots of folks have more money than brains nowadays.  

Isn't that the truth... :wink:

   woods

[Bob_K]

I've shot a fair number of rounds with match equipment at paper targets at 500 yards and beyond.  Paper is one thing.  500 yard shots on game is another, and is just disrespectful of the game.  I don't know of an ethical hunter who would take such a shot.

[jh45gun]

To be honest with you I have a problem with the "average" guy shooting over 125 yards with most muzzle loaders. The guys that can shoot consistently at 200 also practice and know their loads and their guns and that makes a big difference expeccially where scopes are legal. In WI were you can only use a 1 x a long shot is even hard to see in a 1x scope.  With open sights real hard that is why I say 125 yards. I have seen guys at the range shoot at 50 yards and not shoot at 200 let alone 100 and claim they were good for 200. NOT!! They just do not realize the rainbow trajectory of the projectile is not like a centerfire. I have passed up shots I was not comfortable thinking they were too far and that is probably why I have not shot a deer with my muzzle loader yet but when I do I know it was in range and I made a shot I was sure of just like my bow hunting or rifle and pistol hunting. Jim

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well the statement was true.  It just neglected to highlight the fact that getting the bullet into the deer at that range is extremely difficult.

But with practice and proficiency, this may be reasonable.  

The biggest problem is people thinking that opening your check book is all you need to do to acquire these "abilities".

I used to have a signature comment that said "Modern ballistics is a poor substitute for old fashioned practice."  I believe this is exactly the kind of situation I was referring to.

An old woodsman told me the key to survival skills is "to know that you know, what you know.  And know that you don't know, what you don't know".   In otherwords, be confident in your abilities, but know exactly where they end.

A 500 yard shot?  I'll pass.

[Underclocked]

Isn't this the Inline Muzzleloader's forum??

[Omega]

Isn't this the Inline Muzzleloader's forum??

I know they voted for seperation but still want to tell us how to do things. Kinda like Quebec!

[Underclocked]

That distance for a muzzleloader might have been better directed at some of the ol' boys around in 1850 as discussed in the article at http://www.lrml.org/longrange/history05.htm.

But then, none of us can go back in time - can we? (well, maybe in Quebec)  

[DannoBoone]

Isn't this the Inline Muzzleloader's forum??

He must have meant to place it in the 105-155mm Howitzer
forum, but it must be on another website.



tucoblue - If your friend diligently practices several times this
oncoming year, if he takes the time to find a "honey" load for
his mini-Howitzer, IF he can get good groups at 50, 100, 150,
200yds, IF he is good at judging distances, he MIGHT get a
200yd deer with a good BC spire point bullet placed correctly
in the lung area. I have a friend that topped that this year, but
we do a LOT of practicing. More than likely, your friend will come
across one at 100yds or less, but all that practicing comes in
handy for that, too.

P.S. You could have gotten the Savage ML10-II with a good
Bushnell 3200 and had over $700 left in your pocket.   :oops:

[jh45gun]

That distance for a muzzleloader might have been better directed at some of the ol' boys around in 1850 as discussed in the article at http://www.lrml.org/longrange/history05.htm.

But then, none of us can go back in time - can we? (well, maybe in Quebec)  

We all know or at least I do that the muzzle loader can shoot long distances when used by a good marksman. Back in the old days when they did not use multiple rifles like we do today a rifleman knew how to shoot his rifle what hold over to use ect. AND he had constant use of it it feed him and protected him. Of course like now some were better shooters than others. This guy from the past is a far cry from the guy that goes to the range once a year shoots at 100yards or less and calls it good and goes hunting and figures he can hit at 200 yards or more because he saw some one like Jim Shockley on a TV show or read a magazine article stating it can be done. I am sure with the right bullet and a proper load it can be done but many do not take the time or the steps to do that. Jim

[tucoblue]

This fellow is merely an acquaintenance. He has been hunting for 12 or 15 years. It's amazing what some folks will believe. The merchant that sold him this rig  feels you have to have Browning rifles, Weatherby magnum chamberings and Swarvosky optics to do any sort of hunting at all. If you don't have this stuff you are an amature and really don't know what you are doing. I guess lots of people get hung up on this sort of thing.

[RandyWakeman]

This fellow is merely an acquaintenance. He has been hunting for 12 or 15 years. It's amazing what some folks will believe. The merchant that sold him this rig  feels you have to have Browning rifles, Weatherby magnum chamberings and Swarvosky optics to do any sort of hunting at all. If you don't have this stuff you are an amature and really don't know what you are doing. I guess lots of people get hung up on this sort of thing.

Oh, not all THAT many. Some would rather hunt for game rather than just a second job. With his "hunting" for 12-15 years, you might hope he would have an idea what it takes to make a clean drop at 500 yards?

[woodseye]

I'd rather see the MV and ME figures for the best BC bullet out there in front of a full 150gr load before I decided it was even minimal for trying to drop a deer at a real world 500yds. Punching paper at that distance is one thing but actually hitting and dropping a deer is quite another. Are we even talking 500 fp of energy left? For that matter how fast will a bullet even still be traveling at this point?

     woods

[RandyWakeman]

Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: .45 Cal, PR Bullet sabot / lead, 340 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.376
Bullet Weight: 340
Velocity: 1800
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Range  Elevation  Velocity   Energy     ETA         Drop      Max Y  10mph Wind Deflect
  0 yds   -1.50 in  1800 fps  2446 fpe  0.000 sec    0.00 in  -1.50 in    0.00 in
 25 yds    2.32 in  1755 fps  2325 fpe  0.043 sec    0.35 in  -0.51 in    0.16 in
 50 yds    5.41 in  1711 fps  2210 fpe  0.086 sec    1.41 in  -0.24 in    0.52 in
 75 yds    7.76 in  1668 fps  2099 fpe  0.131 sec    3.23 in   0.23 in    1.07 in
100 yds    9.32 in  1625 fps  1994 fpe  0.177 sec    5.83 in   0.92 in    1.79 in
125 yds   10.07 in  1583 fps  1893 fpe  0.224 sec    9.24 in   1.83 in    2.67 in
150 yds    9.99 in  1542 fps  1796 fpe  0.271 sec   13.49 in   2.97 in    3.72 in
175 yds    9.07 in  1502 fps  1703 fpe  0.320 sec   18.58 in   4.36 in    4.91 in
200 yds    7.07 in  1464 fps  1617 fpe  0.370 sec   24.74 in   6.07 in    6.51 in
225 yds    4.09 in  1426 fps  1535 fpe  0.422 sec   31.88 in   8.06 in    8.30 in
250 yds    0.00 in  1390 fps  1459 fpe  0.476 sec   40.13 in  10.39 in   10.38 in
275 yds   -5.24 in  1356 fps  1387 fpe  0.531 sec   49.54 in  13.08 in   12.71 in
300 yds  -11.67 in  1322 fps  1320 fpe  0.587 sec   60.13 in  16.13 in   15.28 in
325 yds  -19.29 in  1290 fps  1257 fpe  0.644 sec   71.91 in  19.57 in   18.05 in
350 yds  -28.12 in  1259 fps  1197 fpe  0.703 sec   84.91 in  23.40 in   21.01 in
375 yds  -38.41 in  1230 fps  1142 fpe  0.763 sec   99.36 in  27.69 in   24.28 in
400 yds  -50.17 in  1202 fps  1091 fpe  0.825 sec  115.28 in  32.45 in   27.81 in
425 yds  -63.44 in  1177 fps  1045 fpe  0.888 sec  132.72 in  37.71 in   31.59 in
450 yds  -78.24 in  1152 fps  1002 fpe  0.952 sec  151.68 in  43.46 in   35.58 in
475 yds  -94.71 in  1130 fps   963 fpe  1.018 sec  172.31 in  49.76 in   39.82 in
500 yds -112.88 in  1109 fps   928 fpe  1.085 sec  194.65 in  56.61 in   44.29 in

[sheephunterab]

Hmm, up the velocity a bit and we could easily get the drop under 100 inches. Calculating a 100 inch drop at 500 yards should be easy. Not! It's interesting to see that there is still plenty of energy there though.

Ballistic Coeff: 0.376
Bullet Weight: 340
Velocity: 2000
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 30
Altitude: 4

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Range  Elevation  Velocity   Energy     ETA         Drop      Max Y  10mph Wind Deflect
  0 yds   -1.50 in  2000 fps  3020 fpe  0.000 sec    0.00 in  -1.50 in    0.00 in
 25 yds    1.67 in  1946 fps  2860 fpe  0.038 sec    0.27 in  -0.53 in    0.06 in
 50 yds    4.27 in  1893 fps  2706 fpe  0.077 sec    1.11 in  -0.32 in    0.27 in
 75 yds    6.26 in  1842 fps  2560 fpe  0.117 sec    2.56 in   0.06 in    0.74 in
100 yds    7.60 in  1791 fps  2422 fpe  0.158 sec    4.66 in   0.62 in    1.46 in
125 yds    8.24 in  1742 fps  2291 fpe  0.201 sec    7.46 in   1.37 in    2.40 in
150 yds    8.16 in  1694 fps  2165 fpe  0.245 sec   10.99 in   2.32 in    3.56 in
175 yds    7.31 in  1646 fps  2046 fpe  0.290 sec   15.27 in   3.50 in    4.92 in
200 yds    5.68 in  1600 fps  1933 fpe  0.337 sec   20.34 in   4.91 in    6.46 in
225 yds    3.25 in  1555 fps  1824 fpe  0.384 sec   26.21 in   6.57 in    8.18 in
250 yds    0.00 in  1510 fps  1721 fpe  0.432 sec   32.91 in   8.48 in   10.08 in
275 yds   -4.31 in  1467 fps  1625 fpe  0.483 sec   40.66 in  10.72 in   12.35 in
300 yds   -9.60 in  1426 fps  1535 fpe  0.534 sec   49.39 in  13.28 in   14.85 in
325 yds  -16.04 in  1387 fps  1451 fpe  0.588 sec   59.27 in  16.20 in   17.67 in
350 yds  -23.63 in  1349 fps  1373 fpe  0.643 sec   70.30 in  19.50 in   20.78 in
375 yds  -32.40 in  1312 fps  1300 fpe  0.700 sec   82.51 in  23.19 in   24.13 in
400 yds  -42.36 in  1277 fps  1232 fpe  0.757 sec   95.92 in  27.28 in   27.71 in
425 yds  -53.64 in  1244 fps  1168 fpe  0.817 sec  110.63 in  31.82 in   31.55 in
450 yds  -66.38 in  1213 fps  1111 fpe  0.878 sec  126.81 in  36.84 in   35.68 in
475 yds  -80.65 in  1184 fps  1058 fpe  0.940 sec  144.53 in  42.38 in   40.12 in
500 yds  -96.44 in  1157 fps  1010 fpe  1.005 sec  163.76 in  48.44 in   44.79 in

[propredator]

What i find very intresting in these ballistic tables is the 10mph wind.Clearly shows under these conditions that a 125 to 150 yard shot  is pushing the limits on making a shot in the vitals.IMHO

[jh45gun]

Your figures show that the rainbow trajectory of a muzzle loader projectile would take some practice like I said to know how and where to shoot.  The average guy sights in for 50 or 100 and leaves it at that. I am not sure if I am reading the figures right but if I am it is telling me that you are shooting high at all the ranges to keep the drop as low as you can so a gun say dead on at 100 would be different figures right??? My comments about the rainbow trajectory is not only limited to Muzzleloaders lots of the older black powder cartridge loads would act the same way just because of the design of the bullets. I do agree that that big chunk of lead does hold its energy well at long distances so the killing is not the problem just the hitting. Jim

[RandyWakeman]

The closest simple "rule of thumb" that's been mentioned to me is that, in terms of shot difficulty-- a shot with a muzzleloader at a given range is very roughly equivalent to a center-fire rifle shot at twice that range.

[sheephunterab]

45, the ballistic table shown is for a rifle zeroed at 250 yards. There is no way, with all the practice you could imagine that anyone could be consistent at 500 yards with this load zeroed at 250 yards. What the table proves is that a 500 yard shot with a hunting muzzleloader is completely irresponsible unless is was zeroed at 500 yards but then it would be irresponnsible to take a shot at all other ranges in between. That is assuming the shooter was even capable of shooting 500 yards, there was no wind, etc, etc.

[Underclocked]

I think the best shot with the BEST hunting rifle - one that is thoroughly acquainted with his load's behavior - can push 300 yard kills if all other variables are favorable.  

That may be none of us here.  

But 200 is doable, eh boys?  

Glass houses are meant to be broken.  How responsible is it to advocate 500 yards shots at any game with ANY rifle?

[sheephunterab]

What i find very intresting in these ballistic tables is the 10mph wind.Clearly shows under these conditions that a 125 to 150 yard shot is pushing the limits on making a shot in the vitals.IMHO

Times the wind deflection by two or three for 20 or 30mph winds and you'll be amazed how far a bullet can drift off course. Add to the equation, gusting winds and there is no way you can shoot a downrange group with any consistency. Wind varies too much in intensity and the difference at the rifle to the target can mean missing the mark by a foot or more.

[RandyWakeman]

Glass houses are meant to be broken.  How responsible is it to advocate 500 yards shots at any game with ANY rifle?

Quite responsible, the way it is phrased. Several ranchers appreciate the 500 yard "prairie dog game".

[Underclocked]

Then I had better tune up that Contender (and find some prairie dogs within a few hundred miles).

[DannoBoone]

I think the best shot with the BEST hunting rifle - one that is thoroughly acquainted with his load's behavior - can push 300 yard kills if all other variables are favorable.  

That may be none of us here.  

But 200 is doable, eh boys?  

AMEN

[RandyWakeman]

Then I had better tune up that Contender (and find some prairie dogs within a few hundred miles).

I personally find that irresponsible with a Contender G2.

[jh45gun]

I think the best shot with the BEST hunting rifle - one that is thoroughly acquainted with his load's behavior - can push 300 yard kills if all other variables are favorable.  

That may be none of us here.  

But 200 is doable, eh boys?  

Glass houses are meant to be broken.  How responsible is it to advocate 500 yards shots at any game with ANY rifle?

 I suppose it is for guys that shoot and practice for that shot. For me no as WI does not allow scopes over 1x and that is a long shot with irons or a dot or 1x to place a bullet where it should go. I will stick under a 100 with my peep sights. I do a lot of shooting  and since most all my shots at deer would be under a 100 yards that is what I shoot at.  The big thing is this:  If every one shot at only THEY were capable of not what the gun was capable of there would be a lot less animals wounded and more cleanly harvested.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Underclocked,

Yes it's the in-line forum.  Meant for discussion of in-line muzzle loading rifles.  

Was there anything about my post that attempted to steer the direction away from said topic?

Or do you think that "in-line forum" means posters must own an in-line in order to post?   :roll: