Fire-lapped (45 colt) and still have leading issues

[jpuke]

Good Morning Veral,

I posted about this last year and finally have an update and more questions.  I purchased your fire-lapping kit along with push-through slugs and LBT soft lube last year.  I did the fire-lapping on a Ruger Blackhawk convertible (45LC/45ACP) and I think I got it pretty well done.  The initial push-through slug measured .450" and the last one I checked was .451" and the bore felt considerably smoother.  In the end it required about 200 shots, I hope that doesn't sound excessive.  There is still a slight hangup at the forcing cone (very slight) and I might try to get it out depending on what I hear from you. 

I'm still getting  (but less than before) leading, mostly at the forcing cone.  The alloy I use is straight wheelweights that are not water-quenched.  Loads don't exceed 1000 fps with the Long Colt and are around 850 fps in all the ACP loads that I use.  I've tried 2400, W231, Titegroup, Universal, Unique, and Longshot as powders so far.  I've tried bullets unsized, sized at .454" for the Long Colt, and .452" in both ACP and Long Colt.  The only lube I've used in the last year has been the LBT Soft.

I hope you don't think I'm disparaging your products, I have confidence that they'll work.  I just need some more advice. 

I can see that the rifling at the forcing cone is smoother and it also feels that way.  I fear that I might have taken too much metal off but I really don't know.  Help!

Thanks!

[Veral]

  For starters, don't you or anyone else EVER withhold any disparaging reports about my products.  I developed ALL of them to work, and if they don't, there's a problem in procedure, normally, or in the gun.   Laying it all out in the open and working the bugs out is good information for public reading. which is what this forum is all about.  So, thank you very much for posting it on the forum.

  You haven't over lapped at all, though that is far more lapping them most guns require.  You may have needed a lot of rounds because you didn't load the bullets with enough abrasive.  The surface should be almost solid black if you wipe the grease off after rolling the abrasive on.

  Are the cylinder throats a bit larger than the force cone where the rifling starts?  IF not, that could be a problem.  Open them and increase bullet diameter to a close fit.

  Try quenching your bullets, especially if diameters are close, between cylinder throats and groove diameter.  Hard bullets will spring up a little after passing through tight throats, and could stop the problem.

  A slight constriction isn't the cause of throat leading unless the leading occurs PAST the constriction, which doesn't appear to be the problem area for you.

  Do the bullets you are using have very tiny lube grooves?

  Check the diameter of the inside of fired cases and see how much larger they are than your bullet diameter.  The 45 colt standard chamber dimensions is very large, and if so, gasses blasting past the gap between bullet and expanded case can strip the lube off.  If this is the cause ofyour leading, the solution is either a softer bullet or more pressure, as needed to obturate the bullet base out against the case necks before the bullet starts moving. 

  Check out and try this last thing first, then the other things. and let us all know.

[jpuke]

I meant to post this sooner but I did go back and give the barrel a good cleaning after my last post and I do have to say that it's by far the prettiest bore that I own.  Never had a bore that looked so glass smooth and shiny. 

The throats were reamed to .4525" before I started the lapping.

The bullet that I've been using is the RCBS 45-270-SAA and I think the lube groove is pretty big.  This bullet casts at about 280 grains from wheelweights.

I have noticed in the past that if I use different powders I get different amounts of leading.  (I had a Ruger Redhawk that did OK with 4227 but leaded terribly with Titegroup or Unique)  I'll check my fired brass to see if a powder/pressure change is in order.  I've never tried H110 or 296 - would you recommend these for 45 colt around 1000-1100 fps?

Thanks for the suggestions Veral!

[Veral]

  H110 and 296 are good at that speed and may solve the problem, but you can get the speed with quite a bit less powder with something a bit faster burning.  I'm very fond of Accurate 9, as it burns very uniform with lighter loads like that.

  When you get the bullet fit right the leading should go away though, with about any suitable powder.for the velocity.

[Land_Owner]

I am watching this thread closely.  I too have the Blackhawk convertible (45 ACP/Colt).  It leads and spits lead quickly.  I have NOT done the required slugging - yet - or the extensive testing as you have.  Unfortunately, I let that beautiful gun sit in the safe.  Shame on me for that.

I have a large, to me, LBT order and am awaiting availability of funds.  I am reading a lot too.  How were the chamber throats "reamed"?

There is always some fear and trepidation in modifying one's own guns for fear of overdoing it to the ruin of the piece.   It is said that "everything is impossible the first time", so being patient and going slow is a good thing.

[Veral]

  Chamber throats can be reamed with custom reamers, but the price is a bit high for just one gun, and one must have at the least a good drill press to do it, while a milling machine is best. 

  Many gunsmiths do it the way I recommend in my lapping instructions.  It is very inexpensive,  slow and sure, taking an hour or two on average.   The inexpensive and sure part are important to the average gun owner.

  Lead spitting can be from cylinder missalignmen,t and, or, from too much pressure behind soft bullets.

  I think I mentioned above that so called 'standard' 45 colt chamber dimensions are much looser than any of the other revolver chamberings.  It is VERY rare for anyone to complain of these problems about any other caliber, but issues with Colt  chambered revolvers are common, and for most difficult to solve.  And as I recall, it is almost if not always when the shooter wants to shoot low velocity plain base loads.        (I don't remember an issue with anyone shooting gc bullets.  So that is one cure if you don't want to get specialized.)

  The most sure solution that I know of is a bit specific to the gun, but it works with plainbase, and saves that cost plus the extra hassle of applying checks while sizing. ---  Measure the chamber diameter and diameter of a loaded cartridge neck.   Whatever difference there is between them, subtrack .002 for chamber clearance and add to bullet diameter of the particular bullet loaded in the measured case, even though it may be .005 or even .010 over nominal size.  The bullet MUST of coarse be set up so that the nose stays outside the cylinder throats, which will be tighter.  However since the colt case is WAY oversize for light loads anyhow, the entire bullet body can be set inside the case neck, when greatly oversize for the cylinder throats.  Simply crimp lightly  over the ogive or shoulder, as it takes very little to keep deep seated bullets from moving due to recoil when loaded to low velocities.  With such a fit, there isn't space for powder to wipe lube out of the lube grooves before the bullet moves into the cylinder throat and begins getting sized down, which zero's out any gas leakage. 

  I've spelled out some very large oversize numbers above, but .005 will probably be enough for 95% of the Revolvers in use today.  The point is, if your gun needs more, it is the only solution that is sure and easy.  Accuracy will be very good, even with the heavy sizing, because the bullet is held straight as the sizing is done, but accuracy can never be as good as if the chambers were a close fit to standard loads.

  I can make any kind of bullet you want for deep seating, with a crimp groove or without.  In addition to the LFN and WFN, I have what I call a Woods Walker, which has the LFN meplat, and an ogive slightly similar to a SWC, but short.  It puts a lot of lead inside the case which is good for this type load.

  There is a very real plus to deep seating bullets when pleasant to shoot loads are wanted.  The deeper a bullet is seated, the lower muzzle and cylinder gap blast will be at any given velocity level.  Also, it marks your light loads, so you'll never pick up your target/plinking loads and go into a bear fight thinking you are armed with full power!

[jpuke]

I had my cylinders reamed by the gentleman at www.cylindersmith.com.  The guy does a great job, reasonably priced, and good turnaround time. 

[Blackhawker]

Without having anything to do with fire lapping etc, I wonder if the hardness of the bullets is the problem?  Not being a bullet caster myself, I don't know what the general hardness of wheel weights comes to be on a Brinnel Hardness scale.  However, what I do know is that many people are falsely led to believe that the harder the bullet, the less likely one will have leading.  Nothing can be further from the truth.  I've posted a link to an article countless times on this site that has to do with leading and bullet hardness.  If I can find it, I'll post it.  Nonetheless, from the way it has been explained to me by several bullet casters, bullets shouldn't be any harder than 10 or 12 in general.  This can change having to do with velocity etc but overall, if a bullet is too hard, it cannot obturate and fill the barrel grooves.  When that happens, flames can travel around the bullet and actually plate out deposits in the barrel. 

Check your hardness of your bullets.  I wonder if you probably shouldn't go any harder than 10 or 12 for your Blackhawk.  That's generally what I use in a stock Blackhawk and I have minimal leading despite hundreds upon hundreds of rounds being fired at roughly 1150 fps.

[Veral]

  You seem to have a lot of wisdom to pass out for someone who has never done it, and knows nothing about lube, internal dimesions of revolvers etc.

  What you are saying counters what I have written pages about.  Keep reading this forum and you'll find where you are in error.    Normally I would delete your post because you are spreading missleading information.  I don't allow it here.  Only the facts, solidly and scientifically proven and provable every time.

  I did the experimenting to learn everything about cast bullets, and it took a lot of time, expense and effort, plus metal working and machine precision experiance that few people have to start with.   Take advantage of it and save yourself many hours of frustrations and poor accuracy.  Just read tis forum till you are dead sure you have a handle on the facts.  Ask questions if you have them, and I'll bend over backward to give the right answer. but don't give advise you can't proove.

  I have a motto that I live by.  If I don't know the answer I'll tell the questioner instantly.  If I answer, I have proven that answer to be a fact.

[Blackhawker]

WOW!!....that was smokin' HOT!   

Preventing Barrel Leading:

http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/15e296c61415e831fecfe8fddcc1dc92-414.html

Please forgive my sins of reading other articles by blasphemous writers.        I was only trying to offer a suggestion that might help the guy with a leading problem by things that have worked for me in the past.

[Veral]

  I humbly bow, accept your appoligy, and forgive you completely.  All that so you know I harbor no hard feelings at you, or anyone, for what they post on my forum.

  I just have a thing about letting any missinformation go unchecked on my forum.  I've spent 30 years developing solid truths and trying to teach the world the facts so I get a bit grouchy when I see I'm not teaching the whole world immediately!     

  I would like the world to know, that the 4.5 years I did in prison , starting in 1999, was entirely for my knowledge about cast bullets, to stop my business and knowledge from going out.  The government used trumped up charges to lock be up, of coarse, like they do with almost all their targets, but they don't like YOU and EVERYBODY knowing how to make your  home made cast bullets really do the job!   That makes me want the nation to know even more! ---  Moldering in the pen for that long because I run a business giving out information  that the world has a right to know about, has produced a few saddle sores, which haven't begin to heal yet!   Especially with the government now gone completely wild with it's distruction of our freedoms!  In other words, any business you do with LBT is supporting a never quit redneck American.

[Blackhawker]

No problem, we're good!
I don't know if that article is in tune with your research but it seemed to help me in the past as well as others who have read it.  My Blackhawk is stock with no extra work done on the throating etc but I did see a bit of leading drop down when I went to softer bullets.  Same for my rifles.

[Veral]

  Sure it helps sometimes when you are purchasing undersize bullets, or a mold doesn't cast large enough.  But solid technology requires that we understand why it helps, which is because it makes the base of the bullet plug the gap and prevent blowby, which blowby blasts lube off, causing leading.  But it's only a half help, or less because it only partly fixes the base, while knocking it out of square in the process.  The big issue is it does nothing for the front of the bullet.  Therefore it does little for accuracy compared to setting the gun up right, per my specs, and fitting a bullet right.  When done my way, the WORST accuracy you can get with ANY safe pressure load, will be better than the best you can get by that method.

  Hopefully this explains why I'm such a knothead!!!!!!!!
  I have a couple or three customers who believe I'm right!
  Put up with my crochetyness and try my teaching and I'll hook you for life!

[Blackhawker]

What you're saying makes sense.  I'll have to read up a bunch.

[azvaquero]

Hi Veral,

Thanks for the excellent site.  I have had similar forcing cone leading problems in .45 Colt for a long time as well.  The problem seems to consistently happen in just about any .45 Colt revolver I try (upwards of 10 to 12 or so).  In fact, the leading starts in the throats themselves.  I am in complete agreement with you that barrel constriction or not, and a rough barrel condition or not, this would not be the issue, because the leading is happening in front of any constriction (and it happens on firelapped revolvers anyway).

I have long believed (as you allude) that this leading must happen more or less before the bullet starts moving, before it has left the case.  I understand that you believe friction is the problem (when the lube is blown out of the lube grooves), but evidence I have seen seems to show that the lead base must become molten merely due to heat from the gas.  What evidence?  There are consistently tale-tell deposits of lead spray blown back along the sides of the brass, effectively soldered to the brass, where the bullet cannot possibly touch.  I'm sure many others have seen this as well.  Additionally, when viewed under a microscope, the throats appear to have been sprayed with molten lead, and it doesn't appear to be smeared on but rather sprayed on, except where the bullet really bears down and smears over the spray.  This is harder to explain than to show, and I can post pictures, but don't know if that is allowed or possible on this site.  So we will have to go with a mere word description unless somebody tells me differently.  The forcing cone and beyond is leaded and it is impossible to tell whether this is spray or friction deposits, because the bullet is really being sized down here and irons out everything (along the driving sides of the lands you will see minor deposits, and I have little doubt this is due to friction).

If spray is not the problem and the problem is merely friction caused by blown off lube due to a loose chamber fit, what are we to do?  I have measured many .45 colt cylinders and they measure in the .482" - .483" range at the front end of the chamber on most Ruger revolvers I have checked (and I have checked a lot of them).  If anybody else wants to check and report in, feel free.  I am using a small hole gauge and micrometer, but pin gauges would be easier if you have those.  In Starline brass, case wall thickness (on my lot of brass) measures .011", so with a .452" bullet, outside diameter of a loaded round runs around .474".  This leaves us with a good .007" to .009" of "slop" in the chamber.  This is common on .45 Colt revolvers.  I have a custom cylinder by Dave Clements that measures a nice tight .477" at the front of the chamber, so I have a tight fit with a .474" O.D. cartridge.  But on the remainder of the factory guns, we would have to look for a bullet mould casting somewhere in the  .459" range, and get rid of the rest.  In other words, probably 99.9% of .45 Colt moulds are undersized, since most don't cast above .454", and the only remedy would be to shoot .459" bullets.  Am I understanding this correctly?

By the way, to clear up any possible questions, I am using LBT commercial lube (life's too short to use an ugly gun or inferior lube, right?), .452 or .453" bullets, throats which are over groove diameter, Starline brass, and chambers @ .482-.483" as explained above. 

[Veral]

Thank you VERY much AZ cowboy!  (My wife and I still miss our long AZ desert horseback rides, though we've been gone from AZ for 21 years!)

   You have provided the chamber dimensions and detailed information when discribe exactly what I explained above.  And the answer.  Shoot bullets which fill the chambers.  I can make you the molds needed.  For that kind of oversize it is best to have the forward drive band which hangs outside the case made short enough so it doesn't contact the cylinder thrats and close as possible to cylinder throat diameter.  The rest of the bullet body, which inside the case should be cut at whatever diameter the particular gun needs to get a close chamber fit, 459 in your case.

  I believe you'll find that with heavy loads the bullets will obturate and fill the chambers to seal off blowby, thus stopping the problem.  That means bullets will get mushed out to what I would make for a perfect fit, but go out of balance in doing so.  In either case, they are going to get sized back down to barrel diameter.

  When working with any caliber, always keep in mind that lead bullets don't have a clue what caliber they are being shot through.  In other words, fit requirements for all calibers are the same.
It's a dirty shame that the 45 colt specs started out so badly oversize and manufactures don't fix the problem.  In my not too humble opinion, it ruins the caliber, and I will not own one because of it.

[azvaquero]

OK, thanks Veral.  I guess I need to start saving up my pennies to try some new molds.  I have a boatload of others which cast slugs in the .454" or below range, including some of yours (your WFN being one of them), so what a shame.  Point well taken on not wanting to own a .45 Colt because of tolerance issues.  I love the caliber, but the problems all but ruin it.  I'm starting to lean more and more toward the .44 (especially the excellent .44 specials recently offered by Ruger).

By the way, and I am in no way affiliated with LBT nor do I stand to gain anything by saying this, but your molds are hands down the best in the business, and I mean that.  The venting alone puts them heads and tails above the others.  It makes casting a breeze.  Even the sprue plate is scientifically designed for excellent venting (I get bubbles and voids in the base of many of my other molds, probably all of them for that matter) because the air can't get out fast enough.  You even mill a vertical vent between the cavities.  You would think that others would put a little thought and effort into the process of mold design, but good ole' Veral seems to be the only one with his thinking cap turned on, while others seem content to sell an inferior product to an unsuspecting public.

[azvaquero]

.44 Caliber data:Previously, I checked a source of 5 different .44 calibers and these are the chamber measurements I got (front end of chamber): .459 in a SBH OM and also Redhawk; .458 in a S&W M29; .460 in a 50th anniv. Rug. BH Flattop; .459 in a Rug. 44 Spl. flattop.  I had checked many of these before at various places and written them down and just pulled out the data.  Loading a .432" bullet in Starline brass gives us an O.D. of .454 on the loaded round, for up to .006" of slop.  The most common measurement was .459, which (subtracting .002" for chamber clearance) would mean we need a bullet of .435", quite a bit bigger than any normal .44 caliber mold casts (the largest ones usually cast at .433", and many at .432" or less).  So this is another problem, unless shooting hot .44 mag loads, which would bump the bullets up.  But for mild loads, even a slight leak is too much.

One question Veral.  Taking the .45 Colt example above, where we are shooting a .459" diameter bullet, wouldn't this cause all kinds of pressure issues squeezing it down to .452" in the throats, and .451" in the barrel?  Also, what happens to accuracy?  Surely it wouldn't be sized evenly each and every time.  It seems to me the only good solution would be a custom cylinder.  What do you think?

[gcrank1]

Maybe, just to try in a 45 with a big throat, since there are readily available, would be the 45-70 x 300gr. bullet at .458ish?

[azvaquero]

Thanks, good idea.  I had thought of using a .45-70 slug myself, but since I have the Clements tight chambered cylinder, I will do some extensive experimentation on that with normal .45 Colt slugs and will report results on that.  It will take some time, but I'll try to get some good answers.

Veral, I still pose the question though, what happens to accuracy and pressure shooting a .459" slug, squeezing it all the way down to .452" in the throats?  I would think it would be sized unevenly.  Slugs tend to be harder on the side adjacent to other cavities, where heat is higher.  Pressure would surely jump way up there!

[Veral]

  If a bullet obturates till the chamber is full of case and the case neck full of bullet, before it leaves the case, which it does,  and must do to prevent leading, if there is not a seal at the chamber throats when the cartridge is chambered, it will have to be sized exactly the same amount as if it were sized that amount in the beginning.

  That means it is deformed while bumping up, and again sizing down, and each time some imbalance and out of squareness is created.  Better to have only one sizing down and the accompaning unbalance than to go up and down.

  In other words, definately yes, a custom tight chamber is the ultimate, and is in fact the key to Freedom Arms 454 performance, though they traditionally made bores way oversize, but have recently corrected that.   I haven't yet heard to complaints about leading in those revovlers, except with crazy high pressure loads of coarse, which pressure the guns are built to stand.

  The big issue here is price, for a FA revolver or a custom cylinder.  Best for the general public to make an affordable gun shoot.