Author Topic: Steel testing to ID comp (Read 2029 times)

Double D · « **on:** January 27, 2011, 06:19:03 AM »

I have found a piece of steel that is 88 inches long. It is 7 inches in diameter on one end and 8 inch on the other end. The 7 inch end had a tapered section about 16 to 18 inches long that tapers up the 8 inch section. The length has been machined from the taper on. With clean up there should beclose to 78 inch 7 3/4" maybe even slightly more and as much as a clean up pass less than 8 inch.

If I can get the steel type identified I am considering buying it. If this is1018 or something similar, it should make some good popcan mortar material.

Does anyone know where I can send a sample of the steel to have it identified. I am not interested in some field or spark test. How much steel do I need to for such a test.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2011, 06:47:20 AM »

Colorado Metallurgical Services in Denver can do that for you. The cost for Spectroscopic Analysis used to identify materials is about $45 with additional fees for sample prep and set up, etc. With shipping you are talking about 75 to 125 dollars. A sample one inch square and flat and parallel, (they do not specify thickness; you will have to ask them), is required for the testing. Their website is below:

www.cmstestdenver.com

Good luck. Good dimensions and quantity on that round!

Tracy and Mike

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2011, 07:56:06 AM »

Yes the size is to big to ignore.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2011, 09:20:13 AM »

Around here we use the testing lab at Virgina Tech.

I'll check to see about costs.

Knowing the type may be all you need - testing hardness you likely can do locally.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2011, 09:30:15 AM »

May run about $100 at VT.
Just would take a sliver
Uses XRF (xray flourescence) to identify elemental contant

Many steels are VERY similar, but 1018 has minimal add metals.

Looking into who the new guy is at the foundery; might make a connection to be able to slip a sample in the backdoor - nothing yet. They could easily do carbon content and more.

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2011, 10:51:45 AM »

A solid chemical analysis isn't what I needed, just the steel identified, is it 1018 family or 4140 family, that's what I am looking at.

Right now it is just a big piece of metal.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:20:30 PM »

OK, been a while since I've done it, but touch it with the grinder - that will tell you a lot about carbon content and some about alloying metals. Compare look of the sparks (color, shape/size/type of bursts) to the pictures.

Hmmmm what pictures? The search is on....

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:27:39 PM »

Here's a start: http://www.capeforge.com/Spark%20testing.html

http://carbon-steel.health-tips-diseases.com/2010/08/grinding-spark-test-to-metal.html

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=42836

google: steel, spark, testing

Zulu · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:03:46 PM »

It seems to me that this method is subject to individual interpretation. And as such is not as accurate as you need to safely make a cannon barrel.
Send it to an expert.
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:14:23 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on January 27, 2011, 12:20:30 PM

OK, been a while since I've done it, but touch it with the grinder - that will tell you a lot about carbon content and some about alloying metals. Compare look of the sparks (color, shape/size/type of bursts) to the pictures.

Hmmmm what pictures? The search is on....

Tim,

Can you give a hand getting it up to the grinder, it weigh about 800 lbs.

dominick · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:28:04 PM »

The spark test is unreliable for me. I can only tell a difference between very high carbon tool steels and low carbon 1010, 1018 etc. 4140 & 1018 sparks look very similar. For testing metal I used Yeager labs in Lancaster, Pa. It was about 60 dollars a few years ago and it's called a numerical designation by composition test. The results will determine the AISI. They only required an ounce of the metal to work with.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2011, 02:18:29 PM »

Quote from: Double D on January 27, 2011, 01:14:23 PM

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on January 27, 2011, 12:20:30 PM
OK, been a while since I've done it, but touch it with the grinder - that will tell you a lot about carbon content and some about alloying metals. Compare look of the sparks (color, shape/size/type of bursts) to the pictures.

Hmmmm what pictures? The search is on....

Tim,

Can you give a hand getting it up to the grinder, it weigh about 800 lbs.

Glad to. Birng it over and WE'LL grind on it.
(4-1/2" hand grinder).

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2011, 02:24:48 PM »

Quote from: dominick on January 27, 2011, 01:28:04 PM

The spark test is unreliable for me. I can only tell a difference between very high carbon tool steels and low carbon 1010, 1018 etc. 4140 & 1018 sparks look very similar. For testing metal I used Yeager labs in Lancaster, Pa. It was about 60 dollars a few years ago and it's called a numerical designation by composition test. The results will determine the AISI. They only required an ounce of the metal to work with.

Some of the resources suggested using known samples to compare with under same lighting and other conditions. Would I trust it having not thought about it for 40 years? Certainly not, but I would trust it to someone with a good track record. And, of course, you named it - trust a good lab to KNOW.

GGaskill · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2011, 03:56:53 PM »

Doesn't the metals dealer have a ray gun?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:02:36 PM »

Larger metals dealers will have them - costing $30-40k each ....

Gem City, here in Pulaski obviously doesn't!

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2011, 05:08:23 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on January 27, 2011, 03:56:53 PM

Doesn't the metals dealer have a ray gun?

Cut Bank, MT?

GGaskill · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2011, 06:15:28 PM »

Yeah, they aren't cheap. I was offered a rebuilt one for $18K. Unfortunately, that is somewhat above the price I am willing to pay for toys.

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2011, 06:50:26 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on January 27, 2011, 06:15:28 PM

Yeah, they aren't cheap. I was offered a rebuilt one for $18K. Unfortunately, that is somewhat above the price I am willing to pay for toys.

George will those thing be able to identify 1018 or 4140?

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2011, 07:19:39 PM »

My understanding is they give you the elements and their percentages in the sample and that the user would need to know what those numbers meant regarding the particular alloy. But I have never seen one at work.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2011, 12:43:53 AM »

We evaluated one at work a couple of years or so ago.

It bombards the sample with radiation and each element flouresces differently, which are read by the machine. A lising of the elements is presented on the screen (small) and preserved in memory. The ilsting is in order of and lists the percentage of the sample.

PERHAPS the Cut Bank DD Manufacturing & Metals company could get one for evaluation for a week?

smokemjoe · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2011, 03:23:23 AM »

Try looking on the home machinist web site for some place that can test it.

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2011, 04:04:24 AM »

Thanks Joe. That's one of those "oh duh, why didn't I think of that" ideas. I did it, thanks.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2011, 04:30:30 AM »

(another Saturday at work)

Let us know how you test it and what the results are!

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2011, 04:35:50 AM »

There is one test I haven't done yet that will help me decide...the "how much is it?" test.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #24 on:** January 29, 2011, 04:58:57 AM »

Quote from: Double D on January 29, 2011, 04:35:50 AM

There is one test I haven't done yet that will help me decide...the "how much is it?" test.

Ahhh yes, the how much pain does it inflict on the wallet contrasted with the gotta have it!

(Sometimes mitigated with the 'you bought what?')

dan610324 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 29, 2011, 10:41:32 AM »

"you bought what ??" its just a piece of steel rod dear

cw be ready , the martini yard sale comes closer and closer

dominick · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2011, 10:56:45 AM »

Another method is to cut off a piece 1/4" thick and weld it at 90 degrees to a 1/2" or so thick plate with no preheat. Let cool and get out the sledge hammer and then hammer the piece flat. 1100 and 1200 series and high carbon steels will not bend far before breaking near the weld. If it's 1018 or another low carbon steel, you should be able to bend the pieces just about flat against each other with cracking. I would use this this method first before spending money on the lab. If it passes this test, then send the piece out for testing. Just a suggestion.

GGaskill · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2011, 01:08:51 PM »

Another related test is to cut off a small piece and heat treat it. Heat to the transition temperature and quench in water. Then see if it got hard. Maybe try another piece and quench in oil.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2011, 02:04:34 PM »

Quote from: dan610324 on January 29, 2011, 10:41:32 AM

"you bought what ??" its just a piece of steel rod dear

cw be ready , the martini yard sale comes closer and closer

I am READY! I love Martini's -- in all calibers and with green olives!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #29 on:** January 29, 2011, 02:11:28 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on January 29, 2011, 01:08:51 PM

Another related test is to cut off a small piece and heat treat it. Heat to the transition temperature and quench in water. Then see if it got hard. Maybe try another piece and quench in oil.

Cool! Am I not right in thinking that 1018 does not harden? I.e.: it is not the carbon content, but one of the alloying elements that allows one to harden the steel. If it doesn't harden in water, it won't in oil.