Author Topic: The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?  (Read 2666 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« on: December 17, 2003, 06:42:49 PM »
Most of us seem fairly sensitive to the "new rifle only" cost of muzzleloading. Yet, in many cases, by the time the first 50 shots are fired-- we have spent far more than the price of the gun itself. Sometimes, more than double.

What are the "consumables" and other costs that take the biggest annual bite out of your wallet, and what can you suggest to others who wish to combat the relatively high cost of muzzleloading?

Offline big6x6

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2003, 02:09:15 AM »
You know what the  "consumables" are for me, MUZZLELOADERS!  I fugure a new rifle here and there, what the heck!  Maybe throw in a scope or two.
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Offline bukfevr

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2003, 04:52:24 AM »
Those "consumables" for me would be the $1-1.25 a piece bullets and the powder that you go through if you do very much shooting.  But, what's the use to have it if you're not gonna shoot it.

Offline Toby Bridges

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2003, 11:31:58 AM »
:-) Good Topic.

The high cost of shooting today's higher performance muzzleloaders has gotten out of hand.

I was in a local Wal-Mart store just the other day to take a look at what they were offering these days in the way of muzzleloaders.  I was floored when I saw that a box of 100 50-grain-equivalent Triple Seven Pellets now sells for $34.95.  That's 35-cents per pellet...and if a guy is shooting three of them...that's $1.05 per shot just for the powder.  Add to that the cost of a premium saboted bullet...like the Knight "Red Hots" that retail for around $18.00 per pack of 10...and that's another $1.80 per shot.  Add to that the cost of a 209 primer (3-cents) and maybe another 20-cents for a pimrer holder like the Knight plastic dics or jackets...and to tap the full performance of a rifle like the Knight DISC Extreme could cost more than $3.00 every time the trigger is pulled.

That's ridiculous.   I get better performance than what this rifle can produce with one of the smokeless powder Savage Model 10ML II rifles I shoot (with a saboted Hornady SST and load of smokeless) for around 70-cents per shot.  In other words for every shot a Knight DISC Extreme shooter takes, I can shoot my rifle more than 4 times for the same money.
Toby Bridges
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2003, 11:39:52 AM »
Quote from: Toby Bridges
:-) Good Topic.

I was in a local Wal-Mart store just the other day to take a look at what they were offering these days in the way of muzzleloaders.  I was floored when I saw that a box of 100 50-grain-equivalent Triple Seven Pellets now sells for $34.95.  .


Anybody who cares to total that in price per pound would hurl.

Our "friends" at Wally World have been doing that for a long while, even though retail is $10 or so a box less-- still no bargain.

Offline Underclocked

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2003, 01:08:51 PM »
Toby, did you trash my email?  I hate chewin' my cud twice.   :-)
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Offline Toby Bridges

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2003, 01:18:38 PM »
:-) Underclocked...

No buddy...I just need to go back and review it.  I'll get back with you before trhe weekend is over...just been busy punchin paper and deer hide!

Thanks for jogging my memory.
Toby Bridges
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2003, 10:11:20 PM »
Quote from: bukfevr
Those "consumables" for me would be the $1-1.25 a piece bullets and the powder that you go through if you do very much shooting.  But, what's the use to have it if you're not gonna shoot it.


http://prbullet.com/xmas03.htm


If you like PR bullets, you can drop that price a lot right now.

Offline big6x6

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2003, 01:33:21 AM »
" I was floored when I saw that a box of 100 50-grain-equivalent Triple Seven Pellets now sells for $34.95."

For some reason Wal-mart has the need to have the HIGHEST price around for black powder substitutes.

One can quickly cover the $20.00 hazmat charge by ordering from Midsouth.  Save sales tax also.
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Offline TCAS

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2003, 02:51:11 PM »
Buy the loose powder by the case and bullets in bulk- several hundred at a time and the price goes way down.  I try not to put a price on the things that add quality and enjoyment to my life.  Buy it- shoot it -have fun- and buy some more....

TCAS

Offline Omega

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2003, 03:42:18 PM »
Quote from: TCAS
 I try not to put a price on the things that add quality and enjoyment to my life.  Buy it- shoot it -have fun- and buy some more....

TCAS


You sir are a man after my own heart!! I don't live to work, I work to live, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna count pennies until I'm unhappy.
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Offline jh45gun

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2003, 12:43:45 AM »
Just powder now yea I tell folks when they want to start out muzzle loading figure almost as much as a gun just for the stuff to get started expeccially if you cannot find a starter kit.  Some times starter kits in 54 and other calibers other than 50 are hard to come by. After you get all of that then the basics powder, projectiles and caps and or primers. and cleaning stuff ect that need to be refilled.

 I cast my own balls and conicals I refuse to pay big bucks for bullets when my own cast work just as fine and I get the satisfaction of making the projectile. So my biggest cost is powder. I am sold on 777 it is more expensive than black but seems to be sure fire stuff and I like the easy clean up. So I pay a bit more for powder but feel it is worth the extra dough. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Ramrod

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2003, 03:36:25 PM »
Quote from: Omega
Quote from: TCAS
 I try not to put a price on the things that add quality and enjoyment to my life.  Buy it- shoot it -have fun- and buy some more....

TCAS


You sir are a man after my own heart!! I don't live to work, I work to live, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna count pennies until I'm unhappy.


I use real Black and count pennies until I'm happy! Elephant is $8.68 a pound delivered to my door, Swiss about double that. How much again for those 777 pellets? I live to shoot my guns!
Ramrod
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2003, 05:01:04 PM »
Do you feel Swiss is worth it?

Offline Ramrod

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2003, 02:38:55 AM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
Do you feel Swiss is worth it?

It's not worth it to me.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2003, 05:25:53 AM »
I cast my own.  I use Swiss powder.  I get roughly $0.24/shot of hunting loads.  And $0.15/shot of plinking loads.  Swiss has been worth it to me.  100 grains of Swiss FFg will push a 225grain ball 1975fps.  I couldn't get past 1800fps with 120 grains of Elephant FFFG!

You fellas with the .45s might stand a lot to benefit from paper patching.  That way you could cast your own bullet out of pure, soft, lead and race 'em up to 2200 fps.  I realize that's not the 2600+ fps you could get from same gun with sabots, but it's cheaper.

The 2200 fps is roughly the upper limit for a pure lead bullet to travel through the atmosphere.  Beyond that and the rotation and atmosphere start to destroy the bullet.  But a .45, 200+ grain bullet going at 2100 - 2200 fps is a helluva killer.  And all it costs is the mold, lead, and paper.

Pure soft lead impacting game at velocities below 2200 fps also performs well.  No worries about the jacket thickness preventing expansion at low velocities.  No worries about the lead sheering off  from the jacket edge at higher velocities.  The whole bullet seems to stay together really well.
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2003, 06:33:37 AM »
Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac
The 2200 fps is roughly the upper limit for a pure lead bullet to travel through the atmosphere.  Beyond that and the rotation and atmosphere start to destroy the bullet.  But a .45, 200+ grain bullet going at 2100 - 2200 fps is a helluva killer.  And all it costs is the mold, lead, and paper.

Pure soft lead impacting game at velocities below 2200 fps also performs well.  No worries about the jacket thickness preventing expansion at low velocities.  No worries about the lead sheering off  from the jacket edge at higher velocities.  The whole bullet seems to stay together really well.


I sure tend to agree with you, I wonder what the velocity limit really is for pure lead. The fastest (yet accurate) loads I'm aware of are the 175 gr. Dead Centers @ 2400 fps or so with Triple 7. With 300 grain sabots you can't get anywhere near that with Triple 7 or Pyrodex, so speed is of little issue.

The fastest I've pushed 220 grain sabots with loose powder is 2300-- but it has been pointless, as my groups have opened up dramatically past 2100 fps-- and that is a lot of powder. It would be interesting to see some documentation of when soft lead itself becomes a problem-- the issue now appears to be sabots that start to erode / allow blowby past 2350, not the lead at all.

It all trails back to why jackets were employed in the first place: to protect the bullet from the rifling tearing it to pieces, and gas cutting of the lead bases. With sabots, no issue on either count-- so the 2300 fps area seems to be no problem at all, just like round balls. Makes sense, if only to me, as the sabot is to a conical shaped projectile as the patch is to a round ball.

Offline jh45gun

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2003, 12:11:42 PM »
The last person that wanted my advice on getting a muzzle loader was this. I told him first decide what caliber you want and then stay with that caliber. Then buy one thing at a time until you get what you need while you are deciding what you want to get. One or 2 things a pay day is not as tough as buying the gun and all the goodies at once. That way when you have what you need when you buy the gun or at least most of it so the sticker price on the accessories is not as bad if you bought all at once. I know there is starter kits but try to find them other than 50 cal if you want a 54 or a 45 or 58 ect. I sold a buddy a 54 cal traditions sidelock to him cheap as he could not afford  a pricey gun at the time. The gun shot good but I built a side lock so figured he needed it more. He searched all over and could not find a starter kit. SO my advice is one thing or 2 at a time if you are on a budget or just cannot afford it all at once. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2003, 01:04:38 PM »
Quote from: jh45gun
I know there is starter kits but try to find them other than 50 cal if you want a 54 or a 45 or 58 ect.


There's the single biggest rip-off in muzzloading land-- "starter kits," if you ask me-- and, I know you didn't. :oops:

Offline jh45gun

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2003, 07:51:32 PM »
I agree for the simple reason if you get one piece at a time you are buying what YOU want to use. A starter kit may have stuff you do not plan to use or cheaply made compared to the single items you may buy. Considering the cheap packages out there ( gun with kit) what is being sacraficed the gun quality or the kits?  I suppose for some they are ok but for the ones I have seen I would rather buy what I need individually.  I also look around a lot of times after hunting  season is over places like Gander Mountain or some of the discount stores or the local gun shop will put stuff on clearance to get rid of it to make room for merchandise that is not seasonal or that does not sell fast but might be just what you need. It pays to look around. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2003, 05:16:17 AM »
Randy,

I think there's two limits for lead.  One is a rotational problem, the other is plain velocity.

I've read posts from people who noticed lead dust on the bench in front of their gun.  They concluded that the rotational spin from the rifling at that velocity was too much for plain lead.  I don't remember if they tried a slower twist at the same velocity or what.  There won't be a "set limit" for rotation and pure lead because this will depend on the caliber and velocity.

The other problem is the struggle to get soft lead to plow through the atmosphere at such velocities.  If you don't think this is a problem just look into aeronautic research, one of the difficulties they have with jets going Mach 2 and Mach 3 is overheating of the leading surfaces due to air friction.  2200 fps is roughly Mach 2.

I can't imagine there would be a set number for this factor either.  I would guess that bullet shape has something to do with how well it resists air friction.  Perhaps a spitzer point bullet could achieve an extra hundred fps compared to a flat point.  I will also speculate that ballistic coefficient could play in here too.  A bullet with a poor BC will slow down faster.  That bullet won't be subjected to high velocities for as long a bullet with a high BC.  A round ball pushed to 2300 fps might survive better than some conicals at same speed because the rb will drop below 2000 fps in short order.

In short, Randy, I don't think a concrete limit is out there.  At least not a generic one.  You might be able to find a limit for each individual bullet from a specified twist.

Now, more towards the point here and that is trying to bring the cost of muzzle loading down.

I'm not saying that there is something functionally wrong with the sabots.  I'm just agreeing that sabots are a significant part of the muzzle loading cost.

Which do you think costs more?  A pack of sabots or a sheet of paper?

Now, if you can get similar performance using paper jackets - you will save a bundle of $.  

Of interest, I didn't get squat for accuracy with paper patched bullets until I started loading higher.  The reason was the paper jacket needed the hot charge to obturate the bullet and get a better gas seal.  Once I put enough powder in, I immediately noticed larger chunks of paper exiting the muzzle and the groups shrank to something more reasonable.  

I think the biggest hurdle with paper patching a muzzle loader would be caliber.  Paper jackets use bullets that are closer to bore diameter.  That means a .50 will use something like a .495 bullet, not a .45.  That might get a little tough to push up to 2200 fps.  However a .45 muzzle loader has more promise.

And in Wisconsin it's legal to use a .40 caliber muzzle loading rifle.  I would think that it would be reasonable to get a .40 paper patched bullet to reach 2200 fps.

You might want to try paper patching with some really heavy paper.  Then perhaps you could achieve the same effect as a sabot, that is use much smaller bullets.  Say two wraps of heavy construction paper might bring a .45 bullet up to .50.  I don't know.

Or, since you're muzzle loading you could use cross-patching.  Just lay two strips of paper across the muzzle to form an "X".  Then seat the bullet just like you would a patched round ball.
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2003, 07:33:33 AM »
Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac
Which do you think costs more?  A pack of sabots or a sheet of paper?

Now, if you can get similar performance using paper jackets - you will save a bundle of $.  


The problem is that you can't. While sabots in bulk may cost you 7 cents each, you can also add whatever value you might assess to your own time in cutting paper.

Most muzzleloaders don't shoot more than 200 shots a year-- for a full potential savings of $14 annually, it is hard to see the great benefit.

Offline Underclocked

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2003, 07:39:26 AM »
Rolling your own carries its own satisfaction.   It's one thing to shoot another man's boolets that do very well and quite another to shoot the same of your own making.  Maybe a fine difference in most minds or not worth the "bother", but some of us enjoy and take pride in making our own and crafting our own solutions.  

Hmm, I need a fully stocked metal and wood workshop.

I've thought to try the paper patching myself.  That would surely be one big sheet of paper!   :)
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2003, 07:47:22 AM »
No question-- now, if you would just make your own blackpowder, you are set. :eek:

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2003, 08:14:55 AM »
Quote
Most muzzleloaders don't shoot more than 200 shots a year


Well, I hardly see the point of this thread then.

If that's all ya shoot, then the spendy sabots, jacketed bullets, and pellets don't amount to much.  

Quote
The problem is that you can't.


Can't what?  Get good performance?  Or save $?

If you figure in the savings of casting your own bullets, that adds to it.  Of course you could cast your own then put 'em in a sabot.

I would think that getting a .45 to shoot a paper patched slug to 2200 fps would be a realistic possibility.  Like I said, that's not quite 2600 fps, but is the extra 400 fps necessary?
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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2003, 08:42:14 AM »
re-reading the earlier posts and figuring the 200 shots/year, the best thing you can do is to dump the pellets.

You're spending $210/year on pellets alone.

I would seriously ask myself if the extra fps is worth it.

Try Swiss powder.  It might offer something in between pellets and other loose BP.

I get 1975fps using 100 grains of Swiss FFg and a 225 grain roundball.  That's a bit better than Goex FFg.  I would imagine that the better seal a sabot offers, plus maybe 120 grains of powder you'd get more velocity.  

Perhaps someone ingenious will design the breach with a small perforated tube just ahead of the flash channel.  This would allow loose powder to fall around the tube forming a hollow spot in the middle.  Then the loose powder could burn from the inside out, like a pellet.

Or, has anyone played with reaming a chamber into the breach?  You could then pack 120 grains of BP into a shorter but wider space.  This would act just like a shouldered cartridge.  You'd have to have a "stop" of some sort to prevent the bullet from seating into the chamber.
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Offline Underclocked

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2003, 10:57:53 AM »
BJJ, I think you just re-invented Knight's .52 caliber thingy.   :wink:
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2003, 01:47:30 PM »
Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac
Quote
Most muzzleloaders don't shoot more than 200 shots a year


Well, I hardly see the point of this thread then.


Wal*Mart has sold piles of T 7 pellets-- at the cost of $80 + per pound.


Most "special" ML cleaning supplies are not of great value, and you can save a lot of pesos by buying compents in bulk, buying after the seasons, or shopping for close-outs on proven performers like the discontinued PTX.

You can also save a bundle with loose powder, smokeless, buying guns with no consumables (red plastic jackets), etc. You can also get equivalent velocities with lighter charges of FFFg Triple 7 than FFg-- (or "P" vs. RS), etc. You can also buy bullets in bulk: Midway USA .452 / 250 gr. XTP (100 pack) for under $.14 per bullet. With bulk sabots, about 20 cents a shot. Add 12 - 14 cents powder for the Savage + primer, you are under 35 cents for a very high performance (2200 fps area) load. No swabbing, regular cleaning required-- no patches, etc.

We all may want to shoot for free, but this is a far cry from the $2 a shot for Knight Red Hot bullets alone, Hydra-cons, etc.-- and FAR less than the cost of just two Pyrodex or Triple 7 pellets alone. There are extremes in both areas, but there are a lot of $2.50 per shot loads being fired, and it takes very little frugalness to want to enjoy a $2 a shot savings per trigger pull. For an active shooter-- it will buy you a new Savage inside a year.

Offline fast*eddie

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2004, 01:06:15 PM »
I shoot with 90 gr of T7 and 240 gr TC XTP sabots. I don't want to know what it costs me or I would be tempted to stop shooting !  :lol:
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Offline RandyWakeman

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The 'Hidden' costs of muzzleloading?
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2004, 02:20:51 PM »
Quote from: fast*eddie
I don't want to know what it costs me or I would be tempted to stop


Something like marriage or chasing women to you, then? :cry: