Is a Handi right for me?

[JMcDonald]

I joined here a while ago when I first discovered these rifles, but got discouraged at their apparent pickiness after from searching through this site and reading the stickies. But, I want to make sure I am not just focusing on a minority of problems if most are perfectly happy with their rifles.

I am drawn to single-shots for largely romantic reasons ( ), but also for the practicality of being able to easily break it down for backpacking and longer camping trips, or in any case where I wouldn't want a full long gun strapped to my back. I really like the Survivor rifles for the bull barrels and scope mounts, and from what I gather they tend to be more accurate than the standard ones and less prone to stringing with heat. I would probably get the .308 version, but the .223 isn’t out of the question. My plan for the back end would be to add a collapsible stock, mostly so my 5' GF could shoot it, and a Limbsaver recoil pad (for both of us ). Up front, I'd like to have the barrel cut and re-crowned to ~16" for handiness, and add a bipod. Assembled, the OAL would be about 27" with the recoil pad (closer to 26” for .223 since I wouldn’t need the pad), and then it could be broken down to fit into a backpack (1).

This would NOT be a benchrest rifle. Other than acquiring / verifying the scope's zero, most likely I'd only ever plink solid reactive targets (gongs, wood, cans, etc) mostly from 50-200 yards, off hand and from the bipod (2). Sometimes, just for the sport of it, I’m sure I might like to see how quickly I can hit a few targets (3). For optics, I'd be using a smaller, lower-powered scope, probably a fixed 4X, but I'd have to experiment. As an outdoors gun, I don't want it to not function or be off 5MOA if a speck of dust gets into the action before closing, or if I accidentally bump it around a bit getting into a tree (4). Also, because I am not super-concerned about great groups, I will probably only be using cheap steel-cased ammo (5).



Ok, so the questions (see above for context):
1)   The take-down aspect is one of my favorite characteristics of a rifle like this. A friend has one and he said he has experimented with taking his down to carry in his backpack for hunting trips, and when reassembling didn’t see any noticeable change in zero (though I don’t know how intentionally he tested this). However, I’ve read on here that even the tension of the take-down screw can significantly affect both accuracy and precision. How much would it affect accuracy if I try to do this?

2)   I have read these guns don’t shoot well unless you rest the front of the action on a sandbag. As mentioned, that is not the kind of shooting I’d like to do. I can accept a 1-2MOA vertical variance between using the bipod and not, but I don’t want much more than that. I am willing to carefully set up the bipod to aid in accuracy (mounting type, location, etc), as long as it doesn’t affect my ability to take the rifle down.


3)   I know a lot of rounds will heat up any barrel, but I’ve read reports that make it seem like these barrels are for some reason way more sensitive to barrel heat than most. I won’t be trying to Cowboy Action Shoot with this gun or anything, but if my grandpa bets me a dollar I can’t knock down 10 cans in a minute, I wouldn’t want the barrel to bend my shots all over the place in the process. 

4)   If I am out for a week at a time on a trip (or enduring some hypothetical survival situation), there is a good chance the gun won’t remain meticulously clean. Obviously, I’d do my best to keep it out of the mud and wipe off / bore-snake it as necessary, but I don’t want to have to worry about it not latching or cases sticking or whatever, even if it appeared clean.


5)   I could try a few different brands of the cheap stuff to see which ran the best, but steel-cased ammo would be about the only thing I could actually shoot. Otherwise, I’d be too bummed about the cost to enjoy the range time.


I am happily willing and expecting to do some work to help it function well, like polishing the bore and chamber. However, after these things, I want the gun to be able to take care of itself. I don’t want the gun to be off 3MOA simply because I didn’t hold it just so, I don’t want to have to wait 5 minutes between shots so the barrel doesn’t get too warm, and I don’t want the gun to shoot like crap if I put anything through it but its favorite $1/shot ammo (which I’d never discover ).

Really, I just would like a fun gun that will do maybe 3MOA from its bipod with cheap ammo, and be reliable enough to count on.


Am I asking too much of the Handi? 

Thanks, and sorry for the long post. I just wanted to ask everything at once.

[petemi]

You never hear much about the good Handis here.  Folks bring their problems.  All the Handis below my signature line work flawlessly in any weather or dirt situation.  The little 16.5 inch .357 Maximum is a great camp/back pack gun.  All of them shoot well in the field.  I'm not much of a paper puncher except for sighting in, and in the field, if I do my end of it, the Handi does its part.  My opinion is ya get a lot of bang for yer buck.  That's why I only have a couple.

Pete

[PHATINJUN]

This is one of the best posts ever on your ?'s Kurt

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,129400.msg1098473394.html#msg1098473394

[atitagain]

I own 5 Handies and have for several years now. I also own a T/C Encore. ( I am partial to single shots. )
I have yet to have a problem with any of my Handies. EVER.
You take care of them, and they will take care of you.
The only thing I have ever done to any of mine is add a rubber O-ring between the barrel and forearm. To free float the barrel.
I only have the T/C for larger calibers and to use as a handgun.
And let's face it, you can buy a Handi for about the price of one barrel from T/C.

[necchi]

 It look like your going to do alot of tinkering to begin with, so following the simple accurizing tip's in the  faq's should be no big deal for ya.
Ok, so the questions (see above for context):
1)   The take-down aspect is one of my favorite characteristics of a rifle like this. A friend has one and he said he has experimented with taking his down to carry in his backpack for hunting trips, and when reassembling didn’t see any noticeable change in zero (though I don’t know how intentionally he tested this). However, I’ve read on here that even the tension of the take-down screw can significantly affect both accuracy and precision. How much would it affect accuracy if I try to do this?
Simple fix, just place a set screw under the take-down screw and get the same depth and torque each time.

2)   I have read these guns don’t shoot well unless you rest the front of the action on a sandbag. As mentioned, that is not the kind of shooting I’d like to do. I can accept a 1-2MOA vertical variance between using the bipod and not, but I don’t want much more than that. I am willing to carefully set up the bipod to aid in accuracy (mounting type, location, etc), as long as it doesn’t affect my ability to take the rifle down.
With Proper and simple bedding of the forearm it's a non issue. Bagging is a bench technique that's for sight in and load development if you load to remove variables.


3)   I know a lot of rounds will heat up any barrel, but I’ve read reports that make it seem like these barrels are for some reason way more sensitive to barrel heat than most. I won’t be trying to Cowboy Action Shoot with this gun or anything, but if my grandpa bets me a dollar I can’t knock down 10 cans in a minute, I wouldn’t want the barrel to bend my shots all over the place in the process.
They don't string any more than other guns. The string is usually straight up, so just hold lower for each shot when you take grandpas money.

4)   If I am out for a week at a time on a trip (or enduring some hypothetical survival situation), there is a good chance the gun won’t remain meticulously clean. Obviously, I’d do my best to keep it out of the mud and wipe off / bore-snake it as necessary, but I don’t want to have to worry about it not latching or cases sticking or whatever, even if it appeared clean.
Don't worry about cleaning the Handi, wipe the mud off and shoot.


5)   I could try a few different brands of the cheap stuff to see which ran the best, but steel-cased ammo would be about the only thing I could actually shoot. Otherwise, I’d be too bummed about the cost to enjoy the range time.
Can't really help ya here, cost is cost no matter what you shoot. Start loading and never look back, but 3" groups at 100 isn't hard to get even with rocks.

(or enduring some hypothetical survival situation),

It's always tuff to offer advise when you see this, the paranoid mind of a psuedo-survivalist never seem's satisfied, just buy some extra dry beans an rice each week and stash the stuff in a waterproof bucket. Your NOT going to be able to "Live off the land", unless your already with people that have the land and your invited to share. In a firefight a Handi with 3moa is going to leave you with a severe "Handi-cap".

[spikehorn]

also I wouldn't put a collapsable stock on a heavy recoiling gun somewhere on here there is a picture of a guy who did and it ain't pretty

[Shu]

Yes the handi is a great rifle as is from the box. The great thing is you can modify it to suit whatever you want. The handi is reasonably priced and on par with accuarcy rifles costing 3 times as much.
For a basic rifle you can do anything with and still stay way under a $500 dollar bill there is nothing better. The take down handi guys have it there way, the shorty guys have it theres, the right out of the box guys have theres and the I have to tinker with everything guys have theres. Name a rifle for the cost that can compete. You can't. I would put a 223 heavy barreled handi in just about any target shooting match with a thousand dollar rifle.

The only thing the handi doesn't do is burn ammo fast.

[JMcDonald]

Necchi, that was very encouraging advice. All of that info is in the stickies, correct? And please, don't look too far into the survival comment . It was only to say I want to be able to count on the gun even if I can't baby it every moment.

Spike, that is a good point for sure. I am a 12g guy also and lots of people have them on those, but I will look into that. If nothing else, though, it would be another reason to consider the .223 instead. But, the collapsable stock is a necessity if I want to be able to comfortably shoot it in the same range session as my GF.

Shu, your last point is definitely something I've told myself .

[reclusej]

I own 4 handi's old and new and never had any trouble with them.
They all shoot better then me. I think that is the fun part of the Handi's
that they are inexpensive and you can experiment with them where as you wouldn't
with a more costly one. Best fun gun ever made in my book.
                                              reclusej

[petemi]

I shot against multi-thousand dollar rifles a couple of years ago with my Handi's.  I didn't beat them, but we earned their respect.  I'm vision impaired....cataract surgery on the 10th.  I don't shoot as well as I did years ago, but the Handis stood up against some severe competition.  A lot of the shooters came by to look and fire a round or two.  They were surprised you could hit anything with a 250 dollar rifle.  Within my personal limitations, my Handis work for me......very well.

Pete

[mcwoodduck]

I only own one handy a 22 Mag and it is a great shooter.
I did work for the H&R rep here in Ca for a while and at the time could not see the advantages of the single shot rifle that looked like the mule kicking 20 ga I had as a kid, the guys that came up and wanted to shoot them loved them.  We had a 30-06 and a 223 rifle for people to shoot at the fair and I did shoot them and found them to be fun and bought the 22 Mag when I saw one in a local shop I deal with.
I have been playing here thinking of a second Handi and from what I can gather most of the time it is either a caliber issue like the 243 Win or it is an opperator error in taking the rifle apart and not putting it back together with the screws to the same torque.
And many like all rifles have a certain twist rate that like heavy, light  or middle weight bullets for the caliber and now matter what you do you will not e able to make heavy bullets shoot out of a light bullet twist in a 223.
I also answered this as I too am a McDonald.  Brian McDonald Nice to meet you.

[gcrank1]

Give your ideas a go, if you dont like it after, you can sell it here in whole or bits and get your money back. What other gun can you do that with?

[cwlongshot]

I joined here a while ago when I first discovered these rifles, but got discouraged at their apparent pickiness after from searching through this site and reading the stickies. But, I want to make sure I am not just focusing on a minority of problems if most are perfectly happy with their rifles.

I am drawn to single-shots for largely romantic reasons ( ), but also for the practicality of being able to easily break it down for backpacking and longer camping trips, or in any case where I wouldn't want a full long gun strapped to my back. I really like the Survivor rifles for the bull barrels and scope mounts, and from what I gather they tend to be more accurate than the standard ones and less prone to stringing with heat. I would probably get the .308 version, but the .223 isn’t out of the question. My plan for the back end would be to add a collapsible stock, mostly so my 5' GF could shoot it, and a Limbsaver recoil pad (for both of us ). Up front, I'd like to have the barrel cut and re-crowned to ~16" for handiness, and add a bipod. Assembled, the OAL would be about 27" with the recoil pad (closer to 26” for .223 since I wouldn’t need the pad), and then it could be broken down to fit into a backpack (1).

This would NOT be a benchrest rifle. Other than acquiring / verifying the scope's zero, most likely I'd only ever plink solid reactive targets (gongs, wood, cans, etc) mostly from 50-200 yards, off hand and from the bipod (2). Sometimes, just for the sport of it, I’m sure I might like to see how quickly I can hit a few targets (3). For optics, I'd be using a smaller, lower-powered scope, probably a fixed 4X, but I'd have to experiment. As an outdoors gun, I don't want it to not function or be off 5MOA if a speck of dust gets into the action before closing, or if I accidentally bump it around a bit getting into a tree (4). Also, because I am not super-concerned about great groups, I will probably only be using cheap steel-cased ammo (5).

Ok, so the questions (see above for context):
1)   The take-down aspect is one of my favorite characteristics of a rifle like this. A friend has one and he said he has experimented with taking his down to carry in his backpack for hunting trips, and when reassembling didn’t see any noticeable change in zero (though I don’t know how intentionally he tested this). However, I’ve read on here that even the tension of the take-down screw can significantly affect both accuracy and precision. How much would it affect accuracy if I try to do this?

2)   I have read these guns don’t shoot well unless you rest the front of the action on a sandbag. As mentioned, that is not the kind of shooting I’d like to do. I can accept a 1-2MOA vertical variance between using the bipod and not, but I don’t want much more than that. I am willing to carefully set up the bipod to aid in accuracy (mounting type, location, etc), as long as it doesn’t affect my ability to take the rifle down.

3)   I know a lot of rounds will heat up any barrel, but I’ve read reports that make it seem like these barrels are for some reason way more sensitive to barrel heat than most. I won’t be trying to Cowboy Action Shoot with this gun or anything, but if my grandpa bets me a dollar I can’t knock down 10 cans in a minute, I wouldn’t want the barrel to bend my shots all over the place in the process.  

4)   If I am out for a week at a time on a trip (or enduring some hypothetical survival situation), there is a good chance the gun won’t remain meticulously clean. Obviously, I’d do my best to keep it out of the mud and wipe off / bore-snake it as necessary, but I don’t want to have to worry about it not latching or cases sticking or whatever, even if it appeared clean.

5)   I could try a few different brands of the cheap stuff to see which ran the best, but steel-cased ammo would be about the only thing I could actually shoot. Otherwise, I’d be too bummed about the cost to enjoy the range time.


I am happily willing and expecting to do some work to help it function well, like polishing the bore and chamber. However, after these things, I want the gun to be able to take care of itself. I don’t want the gun to be off 3MOA simply because I didn’t hold it just so, I don’t want to have to wait 5 minutes between shots so the barrel doesn’t get too warm, and I don’t want the gun to shoot like crap if I put anything through it but its favorite $1/shot ammo (which I’d never discover ).

Really, I just would like a fun gun that will do maybe 3MOA from its bipod with cheap ammo, and be reliable enough to count on.

Am I asking too much of the Handi?  

Thanks, and sorry for the long post. I just wanted to ask everything at once.

Mr. McDonald,
 I could be wrong here, but I read a negative tone to your post. You seem to have made up your mind.

For safeties sake, forget about a collapsible stock for anything with any recoil. Until someone makes a real quality piece, the cheapie ATI brands are not so good. They are known to collapse under recoil, effectively introducing your eyeball to the ocular lenses of your scope…

Nicchi has given an excellent bunch of answers. I completely agree with all and will only add a bit to two of his responses..

#3    These barrels are no more prone to heat POI shifts than any barrel made. POI shifts are a direct result of poor bedding. None of my handis are afflicted with POI changes as they get hot. But truth be told, they never really get what I consider hot. ANY BARREL, that gets too hot to allow you to hold your hand on it is too hot to shoot!

#4   They are also no more or less prone to dirty barrels than any firearm. Clean them as your conscience dictates, they are your firearms. The latch needs to be clean and dry to shoot consistently, but its fairly well protected and aside from very bad and NOT NORMAL powder fouling shouldn’t get dirty.

Your closing comment leads me to believe your mind in set. I KNOW the handi will do all your asking, nothing I say is going to convince you so let my and others actions do our talking. There are MANY of us here owning DOZENS of handis. Do you think we would own so many substandard firearms? I mean our owning that many handi's, $$ is not the only thing driving our purchases…


Handis like all things have their weaknesses, the biggest of which are easily conquered, properly fit the forend, clean and keep clean the latch, replace the main spring with a Wolff extra power spring and fully pull the trigger to the rear. You like the rest of us will enjoy a long life shooting handis.

CW

[JMcDonald]

I was skeptical, yes, but I wasnt set on anything. Ive done hours and hours of research about these rifles, trying to validate my desire for one, and I kept running into more and more reasons I might not enjoy one. However, because I really DO want one, I still wanted to directly determine the validity of the aforementioned negatives (by starting this thread) before deciding on my own to skip on this rifle. 

I will check into the stickies to see if these fixes might work for me.  can apply to my needs.

That really sucks that the collapsable stocks apparently dont work well. :/ 

[Shu]

If you were to actually poll how many on these forums were happy with the Handi, or how many own multiple you would see a very high satifaction rate.

If you want a great gun to carry while knocking about the woods, target shooting, bringing home the bacon etc. You can't go wrong.

If you think all the posts here are negative, I honestly believe you would be mistaken. The Handi has its warts but name a firearm that don't.

Bottom line it is your money to do with as you please. So please purchase one and find out for yourself.  You will be pleasantly suprised.

[gendoc]

hey man, just get you one of them .223 heavy survivors.... and forget the bore/chamber polish and paste.
you ain't gotta do that. but if you want too, like many here do....it's all gud
and as far as the bore snake goes or bore cleaning, only do that before you plan on going to
the range and getting it dirty again. the majority of the 28 handi's i have do better with a fouled bore.
 just make sure you don't have pressure on the barrel from the forend.
and put you a lil' o-ring on the barrel lug... you can shoot that "cheap steel cased ammo" if you want, but it does
not perform like winchester white box ammo for just a few dollars more a box, since your not a handloader.
thats mostly the secret to the handi's shooting fine. but there are alot of guy's here that believe in store-bought ammo. and like its performance.

heck, i'll tell-ya anathang !!! jus look at my avatar

good luck to ya, and i hope you make the right choice.  

[JMcDonald]

I know there are lots of people happy with their rifles, but a lot of the reasons people give are because they want a rifle that requires tinkering to work, and regular care to keep it shooting well, and that is not something I want. Also, that there are stickies on the forum about all the things one might need to do to make it work right, is another reason. The only other gun ive bought that came with a sticky on how to make it work was my PF9, and it has turned out to be a pretty big disappointment from a function standpoint.

In any case, most of my concerns have been largely quelled by responses here.

I do want to clarify, 3MOA shouldnt be hard to do with cheap .308 or .223, and from a bipod?

Thanks.

[trotterlg]

If you don't have other Handi's I would go with a Savage Edge or Stevens 200, you may even find a package rifle with a scope on it for very near the price of the H&R.  If you really need to tkae it apart to carry, you could go with a Rossi for a lot less money, have about the same chance of having it shoot well and if it doesn't suit you you can dump it without being out much money.  Where H&R's really shine is if you love to tinker, modify guns, swap barrels and stocks and try out different configurations of all the parts they have, sort of like a leggo set you can shoot. Larry

[gcrank1]

'Typical' old mil-surps usually do 3moa and some even better (sights are the real issue), and most Handi's will do well better than that as new; though most seem to get even better with time and shots fired.
They can be tinkered with, and parts easily swapped around to make your own 'custom', but as to 'require' tinkering, most dont.
Every company makes some lemons.
My H&Rs have been user friendly, Im satisfied, what more can I say?

[JMcDonald]

That is good to hear, that 3MOA isnt a big stretch. And really, there is so much I like about the idea of the Handi Rifle setup over anything else, that I probably wouldn't even buy a rifle at all if it turns out the Handi might not do what I want.

[Dirty Bob]

I say go for it, but I would encourage you to consider reloading. I just picked up a .357 for $250 out the door. It's the basis of my shorty project. I have the NDS-38 ghost ring and will make a front sight as time permits. I have a wood-and-kydex front on the barrel for the moment, as I couldn't resist trying it out.

To address the length issue, I went with a youth synthetic stock from a shotgun. When I cut the barrel to 16.5" the gun should be at 30.5". That's the same length as the Cricket and Chipmunk rimfire rifles for kids. I may lop one or two inches off the stock to get down to 28-29 inches, but I think that's as short as I could go and still be able to shoot it well. My petite sister-in-law tried it with .38 wadcutters and the youth stock and liked it.

The pistol cartridges -- .357, .44 and .45 Colt -- seem to me to be the best choices for a shorty. The .38/.357 was my choice because I can shoot it cheaper than almost any other cartridge (with my reloads) and can load anything from practice and small game loads to full-power .357 rounds that are useful for deer and some pigs.

A simple Lee C-press and a set of dies is a cheap way to get started and could keep your ammo costs low. It would pay for itself in almost no time at all.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[JMcDonald]

I actually have most all the stuff to reload. I did .410 shotshells for a while a couple years ago, but unfortunately I got bored with it. Loading for a single shot, of course, might not be so bad since I might only have to do like 20 rounds for a session, but even still I would load like 15 shells and feel like I'd been sitting there forever, heh. Before I gave it up, though, I had put together everything to reload 9mm, and had it all except primers (this was right after Obama got elected..............) and then never got around to it. Funny enough, at one point I was quite set on getting a .45-70 Handi rifle (with .357 in 2nd place) and reloading for it after reading how well they shoot and falling in love with the cartridge, but this was about the time I realized I might not have the patience for reloading, heh.

[petemi]

I have always tended to be an impatient person.  When I was a kid I built model airplanes and had them crashed and burned before I got paint and decals on them.  I only started reloading last April, and I love it.  I think it is relaxing and an escape for a few hours.  I find a load I think I might like and load up a half dozen.  I run them through the chrony and also see where they're hitting, and if I like it I go load a hundred or so.  I think my buddy M.J. at Dukes Sporting Goods believes I've died.  I haven't been in to buy ammo in months.  To me, reloading beats watching T.V. any day.

Pete

[Dirty Bob]

You can also make a simple table-top reloading stand and be able to reload at the range. I can't think of a more enjoyable way to spend half a day than making custom rifle rounds and trying them out immediately, then trying a little more or a little less powder...

I'm one of those who finds casting and reloading fun. My next big step will be trying paper-patched bullets. I think a .357 Mag Handi is an ideal platform for using paper-patched bullets.

Even someone who will never reload would be well served by a .357 Mag Handi-Rifle. They can buy wadcutter .38s or plain-jane .38s for inexpensive practice and/or small game, and magnum rounds (like the 158 JSP .357 Mags I bought at Wal-Mart last week) for deer, all for less than the cost of most rifle cartridges.

Regards,
Dirty Bob