GAS CHECKS?

[Merle]

Greetings,

I'm looking for recent experience with gas checks. Years ago I gave up on them for revolvers, after a string of problems. About every third GC would come off, and some stayed in the barrel. I was forced to open the gun after each shot to verify the bore was clear. These were commercial cast, and not my handiwork! I did not notice anything odd while seating the bullets, so had no warning until I spotted the discs laying just at the end of the bench. They barely made it out of the muzzle.

About the same time I lucked into a very large supply of Linotype, so avoided GC's like the plague. At any rate, my supply of Linotype is nearly gone, so I must look at other choices.

I have not had this problem in TC single shots, nor in rifles. I never saw a need for GC's in the 45 ACP due to the velocity, so never tried them in that application.

I'm wondering if this problem is more common in light loads and if the higher pressures of full power loads will eliminate that problem. Or did I just get a batch of bad bullets & am paranoid over nothing?

Thanks.

       

[stimpylu32]

Sounds to me like you just got a bad batch of bullets , I either use my own ( home cast ) or Beartooth and have never had a GC come off in the barrel , the bullets may have had the wrong check or they were just not properly installed .

stimpy

[Merle]

Sounds to me like you just got a bad batch of bullets , I either use my own ( home cast ) or Beartooth and have never had a GC come off in the barrel , the bullets may have had the wrong check or they were just not properly installed .

stimpy

I did have one other thought (after I posted) and that possibly the bases were not completely filled out. That wouldn't give the GC nearly as much to grab onto. At this late date I don't recall if they were Lyman or Hornady (crimp on) gas checks. That could make a difference too, I suppose.

Thanks for the response.

    

[BCB]

Even it the gaschecks did come off during the movement of the boolit out of the barrel, I can't even begin to imagine them staying in the barrel or only landing on the shooting bench...

I have pulled boolits that were gaschecked and the check stayed in the case.  I shot the round with only the check in place and it dang straight left the barrel.  If you would have been hit by it, you would have been hurting.  They flew completely out of sight from the handgun.  The ones I found were ones I shot in the basement and the cement block wall stopped them!!!

Heck, a primer will send them down range as I have done that also as an experiment...

Something doesn't sound right at all...

BCB

[stimpylu32]

BCB

Sounds to me like the GC's were coming off inside of the case's and were coming out sideways , thats about the only way I can see this happening , your right though , if they were to come out flat like the bullet base , those little suckers would fly some . 

stimpy

[Mikey]

Merle:  I've seen gas checks that have remained in their cases after a bullet has dropped out and have shot gas checks by themselves from loaded cases where the bullet had already dropped out and none have stayed in the barrel.  I think you had a poor match twixt slug and check.

I have not encountered this problem is a long while but recall that when it happened we blamed the quality of the cast slug that was used with the gas check, believing it was poorly cast and/or too undersized to effectively hold the gas check.  Bullets that are used with gas checks have a base designed to be covered by the gas check - sometimes people try to gas check bevel based bullets and that doesn't work well and sometimes they try to gas check flat base bullets believing the gas check will prevent leading; sometimes it is a poor quality gas check that simply does not properly grip the bullet.  Never the less, I think you got a bad batch of bullets and thay you now have unnecessary concerns about using them.  I don't blame you but I believe 'quality' is the issue.

I have used gas check recently with Beartooth Bullets (cast, gas checked) in the 444 Marlin and the 44 Magnum; these are quality slugs and you cannot separate the gas check from the bullet when you handle or load them as they are properly set to the bullet.  

I do not think it is a light load/heavy load issue.  

I used to get Linotype from print shops and on ocassion still do.  Good luck.

[Lloyd Smale]

what usually causes the problem is a mold that isnt cut for the proper gas check. differnt manufactures of gas checks have small variations in the size of the checks they sell. Combined with the varitions in the dimentions the mold makers cut the molds to. I stock 3 differnt 44 checks for example. When i cast a particular bullet i check to see which fits the gas check shank the best out of the 3.

[45-70.gov]

Greetings,

I'm looking for recent experience with gas checks. Years ago I gave up on them for revolvers, after a string of problems. About every third GC would come off, and some stayed in the barrel. I was forced to open the gun after each shot to verify the bore was clear. These were commercial cast, and not my handiwork! I did not notice anything odd while seating the bullets, so had no warning until I spotted the discs laying just at the end of the bench. They barely made it out of the muzzle.

About the same time I lucked into a very large supply of Linotype, so avoided GC's like the plague. At any rate, my supply of Linotype is nearly gone, so I must look at other choices.

I have not had this problem in TC single shots, nor in rifles. I never saw a need for GC's in the 45 ACP due to the velocity, so never tried them in that application.

I'm wondering if this problem is more common in light loads and if the higher pressures of full power loads will eliminate that problem. Or did I just get a batch of bad bullets & am paranoid over nothing?

Thanks.

       

what  was you powder charge?

that is  one reason why the loading  have MINIMUM charges
so the bullet  won't ''coast''  and leave the check  behind
as  long as powder is burning...i can't imagine the bullet leaving the check....no matter  how  ill-fitted to together

[Merle]

Even it the gaschecks did come off during the movement of the boolit out of the barrel, I can't even begin to imagine them staying in the barrel or only landing on the shooting bench...

I have pulled boolits that were gaschecked and the check stayed in the case.  I shot the round with only the check in place and it dang straight left the barrel.  If you would have been hit by it, you would have been hurting.  They flew completely out of sight from the handgun.  The ones I found were ones I shot in the basement and the cement block wall stopped them!!!

Heck, a primer will send them down range as I have done that also as an experiment...

Something doesn't sound right at all...

BCB

Yeah, I was pretty sure something wasn't right - that's why I quit using them & have been afraid of them ever since.
The only thing I can add is that those still in the barrel had turned more or less sideways.
I guess that let the gas flow past without pushing them out the barrel.

       

[Merle]

BCB

Sounds to me like the GC's were coming off inside of the case's and were coming out sideways , thats about the only way I can see this happening , your right though , if they were to come out flat like the bullet base , those little suckers would fly some . 

stimpy

Now that makes sense - thanks for the input.

    

[Merle]

Merle:  I've seen gas checks that have remained in their cases after a bullet has dropped out and have shot gas checks by themselves from loaded cases where the bullet had already dropped out and none have stayed in the barrel.  I think you had a poor match twixt slug and check.

I have not encountered this problem is a long while but recall that when it happened we blamed the quality of the cast slug that was used with the gas check, believing it was poorly cast and/or too undersized to effectively hold the gas check.  Bullets that are used with gas checks have a base designed to be covered by the gas check - sometimes people try to gas check bevel based bullets and that doesn't work well and sometimes they try to gas check flat base bullets believing the gas check will prevent leading; sometimes it is a poor quality gas check that simply does not properly grip the bullet.  Never the less, I think you got a bad batch of bullets and thay you now have unnecessary concerns about using them.  I don't blame you but I believe 'quality' is the issue.

I have used gas check recently with Beartooth Bullets (cast, gas checked) in the 444 Marlin and the 44 Magnum; these are quality slugs and you cannot separate the gas check from the bullet when you handle or load them as they are properly set to the bullet.  

I do not think it is a light load/heavy load issue.  

I used to get Linotype from print shops and on ocassion still do.  Good luck.

I believe that this is pretty much likely to be the case. After this episode I bought some moulds & learned to cast my own, that way if there was a problem I knew who to blame. Also, I was able to inspect them before using them, so my confidence level gradually increased. I suppose I got spoiled having about half of a 55 gal drum full of Linotype. I thought it would be a lifetime supply, but somehow all those "free" bullets coaxed me into shooting more, so ....

Thanks for the feedback.


    

[Merle]

what usually causes the problem is a mold that isnt cut for the proper gas check. differnt manufactures of gas checks have small variations in the size of the checks they sell. Combined with the varitions in the dimentions the mold makers cut the molds to. I stock 3 differnt 44 checks for example. When i cast a particular bullet i check to see which fits the gas check shank the best out of the 3.

That makes sense. Guess I need to get up to speed on what is currently available.

Thanks.

    

[Merle]

Greetings,

I'm looking for recent experience with gas checks. Years ago I gave up on them for revolvers, after a string of problems. About every third GC would come off, and some stayed in the barrel. I was forced to open the gun after each shot to verify the bore was clear. These were commercial cast, and not my handiwork! I did not notice anything odd while seating the bullets, so had no warning until I spotted the discs laying just at the end of the bench. They barely made it out of the muzzle.

About the same time I lucked into a very large supply of Linotype, so avoided GC's like the plague. At any rate, my supply of Linotype is nearly gone, so I must look at other choices.

I have not had this problem in TC single shots, nor in rifles. I never saw a need for GC's in the 45 ACP due to the velocity, so never tried them in that application.

I'm wondering if this problem is more common in light loads and if the higher pressures of full power loads will eliminate that problem. Or did I just get a batch of bad bullets & am paranoid over nothing?

Thanks.

       

what  was you powder charge?

that is  one reason why the loading  have MINIMUM charges
so the bullet  won't ''coast''  and leave the check  behind
as  long as powder is burning...i can't imagine the bullet leaving the check....no matter  how  ill-fitted to together

I don't recall the exact charge (it was a long time ago) but it was the minimum charge of bullseye in in 38 SPL cases fired in a 357 Mag. Times were tough and I was on a very low buck budget, so I used the bare minimum that I could find in a reloading manual.

    

[BCB]

Well, not to be a skeptic or someone who doubts all of the time, but there must be more to this story than meets the eye, or the original post!!!

I just came upstairs from my garage and I tried to stick a gas check in the barrel of my SRH…

I used only cases that were primed—NO POWDER AT ALL…

I placed one in the end of the case the way it would be if it was on a boolit.  Dropped the hammer just on a primer and I would not have wanted to be 10 feet away where it hit the wall…

I then place one sideways in a case and dropped the hammer—still, I don’t want to be 10 feet away and get hit with this little piece of copper…

So, to really check things out, I did the above things, but I put 2 checks in this time. (The ones that were in sideways needed a bit of help with a brass hammer!!!)  You don’t want to get hit with them at 10 feet either…

Remember, this was only launched with the force of a primer—and not magnum one either, not that it would really matter…

I don’t know how a check could stay in the barrel or for that matter just exit the end and fall to the ground if front of the barrel.  To overcome the coefficient of friction, the check would have to be moving at a minimal speed and it would move more than a few feet upon exiting the barrel...

Ain’t gonna happen, I don’t think.  And the only way the check would stay in the barrel is if it was still attached to the boolit and it struck in the barrel…

Just my thoughts…

BCB

[Merle]

Well, not to be a skeptic or someone who doubts all of the time, but there must be more to this story than meets the eye, or the original post!!!

I just came upstairs from my garage and I tried to stick a gas check in the barrel of my SRH…

I used only cases that were primed—NO POWDER AT ALL…

I placed one in the end of the case the way it would be if it was on a boolit.  Dropped the hammer just on a primer and I would not have wanted to be 10 feet away where it hit the wall…

I then place one sideways in a case and dropped the hammer—still, I don’t want to be 10 feet away and get hit with this little piece of copper…

So, to really check things out, I did the above things, but I put 2 checks in this time. (The ones that were in sideways needed a bit of help with a brass hammer!!!)  You don’t want to get hit with them at 10 feet either…

Remember, this was only launched with the force of a primer—and not magnum one either, not that it would really matter…

I don’t know how a check could stay in the barrel or for that matter just exit the end and fall to the ground if front of the barrel.  To overcome the coefficient of friction, the check would have to be moving at a minimal speed to move a few feet upon exiting the barrel...

Ain’t gonna happen, I don’t think.  And the only way the check would stay in the barrel is if it was still attached to the boolit and it struck in the barrel…

Just my thoughts…

BCB

I'm usually skeptical myself, so I don't take offense. I have no explanation either, other than something was drastically wrong. I'm going to write it off as a freak occurance, and take another (up to date) look at gas checks.

     

[45-70.gov]

BCB
you  didn't have a slug stopping the gas check  from shooting out

i use minmum charges  of bullseye in 38s  in a 357 mag revolver and rifle....BUT NEVER WITH A CHECK

you can just pull them apart  if you have a lot of them
and put them back together  with out the gas check  if money is still tight
assuming they have enough powder  to RELIABLY kick out the slug

[Mohawk]

Maybe this helps. I later found out that my Buffalo Bore .38 Spl bullet SWC-HP bullet had a gas check. I recovered the bullet and the gas check stayed very much intact. The bullet fully, if not over-expanded, and the brass gas check was impact bent pretty severely. But it did stay very much attached. 

[BCB]

BCB
you  didn't have a slug stopping the gas check  from shooting out

i use minmum charges  of bullseye in 38s  in a 357 mag revolver and rifle....BUT NEVER WITH A CHECK

you can just pull them apart  if you have a lot of them
and put them back together  with out the gas check  if money is still tight
assuming they have enough powder  to RELIABLY kick out the slug

45-70.gov,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying...

My thought is that if the boolit exits the barrel, the check is with it.  At least for considerable distance until it might seperate.  But it won't seperate going down the barrel and drop at the bench or a couple of feet in front of the bench...

Ain't gonna happen as the force on the base of the boolit will not allow the check to fall free.  Not until the resistance by air is too great for the less-mass check to stay in place, but not enough resistance for the boolit to keep moving.  This is true if the check is not seated/crimped tightly...

Still more to this incident than meets the eye or is being told...

BCB

[Merle]

BCB
you  didn't have a slug stopping the gas check  from shooting out

i use minmum charges  of bullseye in 38s  in a 357 mag revolver and rifle....BUT NEVER WITH A CHECK

you can just pull them apart  if you have a lot of them
and put them back together  with out the gas check  if money is still tight
assuming they have enough powder  to RELIABLY kick out the slug

45-70.gov,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying...

My thought is that if the boolit exits the barrel, the check is with it.  At least for considerable distance until it might seperate.  But it won't seperate going down the barrel and drop at the bench or a couple of feet in front of the bench...

Ain't gonna happen as the force on the base of the boolit will not allow the check to fall free.  Not until the resistance by air is too great for the less-mass check to stay in place, but not enough resistance for the boolit to keep moving.  This is true if the check is not seated/crimped tightly...

Still more to this incident than meets the eye or is being told...

BCB

So then, are you trying to say I am a liar?

    

[BCB]

There appears to be some misunderstandings within this thread…

Merle, I don’t care if the checks exit your barrel or not.  I could care less one way or the other…

So far, I haven’t heard anyone explain how a check could drop out of the end of a barrel after it has been fired.  If so, then it should be able to be done anytime someone wants to do it?...

I shot checks from my SRH just using a primer as I explained…

Hell, you could blow in the breech of a weapon and the check would fly probably 10 feet out of the muzzle…

I have shot 10’s of thousands of checked boolits and not one time did a check fall out the end of the barrel after the cartridge was fired.  They have separated from the boolit 40-50 feet down range, but never right at the handgun/rifle muzzle area…

Perhaps you have had an intervention from a divine being…

Don’t know, don’t care…

Still…

Good-luck…BCB

[Graybeard]

I won't try to explain away the incident as quite honestly I have no explanation and no clue how such could happen but I've seen too many strange things in my life time to just say it didn't or couldn't happen.

I will say that I have fired untold thousands of gas checked bullets thru revolvers especially .44 magnum, .357 magnum and even .38 specials but also others such as .454 Casull and .480 Ruger just off the top of my head.

I have never seen one closer than perhaps 15 yards of the end of barrel yet. Seldom ever have I seen one other than at the point the bullet impacted. I'm reasonably sure the few I've seen fall off inside of 25 yards were those bullets I knew failed to fully fill out the base but went ahead and used them anyway.

For sure it is not a normal occurence and I doubt you'll ever see it again with GC bullets not from that lot. I've put them on some basically cull bullets in the past and even those most of the time got to the intended target intact.

I long ago did an experiment for my best friend Billy Doss (deceased). Billy hated the effort of casting bullets so didn't want to waste a single one we cast. I loaded three lots one of visually perfect bullets with all weighing within a couple grains of each other, the second lot was visually perfect bullets but weights varied by well over ten to as much as 20 grains indicating some air pockets or something. The last group were visual culls we'd normally have returned to the pot and the weights varied widely.

Surprisingly the culls shot the best tho the difference was so slight as to be insignificant. Shooting was done at 25 and 50 yards. After that we never dumped a bullet back into the pot to recast. Billy took all those home to load them. I too have been far less strict about what mine look like since tho I still reserve only the best for when it really matters. For competition back when I still shot it only the best of the best was used by me and for hunting I want top quality but for all other shooting those culls have worked fine for many years.

A non checked bullet with a messed up base is NOT the same thing as a GC bullet with messed up base. You will see a difference in accuracy if the non checked bullet has a malformed or incomplete base but won't on GC bullets based on my personal testing.

[45-70.gov]

BCB
you  didn't have a slug stopping the gas check  from shooting out

i use minmum charges  of bullseye in 38s  in a 357 mag revolver and rifle....BUT NEVER WITH A CHECK

you can just pull them apart  if you have a lot of them
and put them back together  with out the gas check  if money is still tight
assuming they have enough powder  to RELIABLY kick out the slug

i am saying the slug helped equalize the preasure on each side of the check
whether through weigh/inertia  or resistance
the slug also slowed the gas velocity

as for the  BUFFALO BORE  bullets
they were not  low powered...i am sure the lead  obturated within the check
and  had preasure behind it through  the length of the barrel

the  light  loads  set the slug  into motion
the burned all the powder before the bullet exited
the bullet then  COASTED   with  much  more momentum than the check due to its weight
the barrel has placed a DRAG / friction  on the slug and the check
that drag  ''over came'' the momentum  of the check.....but  not the slug
so the slug ran off and left  the check behind

it  can and  has  happened to jacketed  bullets too!!

DONT"T USE LIGHT LOADS WITH GAS CHECKS.......or jacketed for that matter

45-70.gov,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying...

My thought is that if the boolit exits the barrel, the check is with it.  At least for considerable distance until it might seperate.  But it won't seperate going down the barrel and drop at the bench or a couple of feet in front of the bench...

Ain't gonna happen as the force on the base of the boolit will not allow the check to fall free.  Not until the resistance by air is too great for the less-mass check to stay in place, but not enough resistance for the boolit to keep moving.  This is true if the check is not seated/crimped tightly...

Still more to this incident than meets the eye or is being told...

BCB

[BCB]

45-70.gov,

You may be correct about the light charge running out of “power” and the boolit coasted, although I doubt that, but I can’t prove it…

My thought and I am sticking to it is the fact that if a checked boolit exits the barrel, the check is still on it, maybe not crimped tightly in place, but it is on it.  The pressure required to get the boolit to exit would be more than sufficient to keep the check with the boolit.  And, if the boolit is only traveling a few hundred feet per second, the check will fly considerable distance.  It will separate once it reaches the atmosphere as then there is no pressure again it at all…

No matter how slow the velocity of the boolit when it starts—say just enough to let it “coast” out the barrel, I bet if you put your finger beside the muzzle of the gun, you will get a dang nice burned finger tip.  And gas has a much less density than a check and it should stop in the bore also.  There should be a little “cloud” in the middle of the barrel—yea right…

‘Bout all I can say, cause what I understand, although in theory it might be possible to shoot a boolit at such a low velocity that I just gets to the end of the muzzle and falls straight down, it is most unlikely as the coefficient of friction that needs to be defeated to get the boolit moving is a greater velocity than it is to stop the boolit at the very end of the barrel and let it drop straight to the ground.  That being said, that is the only way a check will stay in the barrel, if the boolit doesn’t exit, or if the boolit drop straight to the ground, the check will be at the front of the muzzle/bench.  I would enjoy greatly seeing a video of that entire scenario—but I won’t hold my breath…

So, technically, if someone experiments enough, the correct charge, velocity, and whatever physics is involved could be arrived at to do the “gas check drop”…

As I previously mentioned, I tapped 2 checks into a primed case.  The checks were in sideways which makes them block the gas from the primers even less.  They deformed the case mouth enough that I had to tap the case into the cylinder—not much force, but a bit.  You would have dang straight known you were hit with them at 10 feet for sure…

Let me know if anyone gets that “boolit to the end of the barrel and then drops straight down” perfected!!!...

By the way, the half-jacket boolits sticking the jacket in the barrel is completely different as the resistance of the half-jacket would be dozens of times greater than a check.  And still, the situation with velocity would have to be near calculated by great minds and equipment to do it with consistency...

And so it goes...

[45-70.gov]

i  am just speculating  when  i am talking   and it is just my theory also

when  fire lapping  i have had bullets get stuck..
...even had them sticking out of the barrel to  various degrees

i few months ago  i opened  a handi 45-70  with a stuck bullet
they casing bruised my belly as the pressure ejected  it
2 grains bullseye  405 slug....LBT lapping compound
went up to 3 grains  and  no more stuck....but  i can see them  fly

there are so many variables  here  for the the bullet to leave the check in the barrel
and we also  have to wait for  the stars to align....and the same lunar phase
to duplicate this  event

he never  did  say just what charge he used

[BCB]

there are so many variables  here  for the the bullet to leave the check in the barrel
and we also  have to wait for  the stars to align....and the same lunar phase
to duplicate this  event

Now we are sort of seeing eye to eye...

I ain't saying it can't happen, I am just betting money it won't happen...

About the odds of winning the lottery, yet I play daily!...

BCB

[Merle]

There appears to be some misunderstandings within this thread…

Merle, I don’t care if the checks exit your barrel or not.  I could care less one way or the other…

So far, I haven’t heard anyone explain how a check could drop out of the end of a barrel after it has been fired.  If so, then it should be able to be done anytime someone wants to do it?...

I shot checks from my SRH just using a primer as I explained…

Hell, you could blow in the breech of a weapon and the check would fly probably 10 feet out of the muzzle…

I have shot 10’s of thousands of checked boolits and not one time did a check fall out the end of the barrel after the cartridge was fired.  They have separated from the boolit 40-50 feet down range, but never right at the handgun/rifle muzzle area…

Perhaps you have had an intervention from a divine being…

Don’t know, don’t care…

Still…

Good-luck…BCB

When you say "or is being told" that sure don't leave much room for misunderstanding.

I don't doubt that you got the results you reported, but they weren't the same as mine.
I don't know if the bullets and/or the loads were defective, but I am sure that something went wrong.
And if it was intervention I don't think a divine being was at work, except to keep my face & fingers intact.
That's why I have avoided gas checks all these years, which was the subject of the original post.

[Merle]

i  am just speculating  when  i am talking   and it is just my theory also

when  fire lapping  i have had bullets get stuck..
...even had them sticking out of the barrel to  various degrees

i few months ago  i opened  a handi 45-70  with a stuck bullet
they casing bruised my belly as the pressure ejected  it
2 grains bullseye  405 slug....LBT lapping compound
went up to 3 grains  and  no more stuck....but  i can see them  fly

there are so many variables  here  for the the bullet to leave the check in the barrel
and we also  have to wait for  the stars to align....and the same lunar phase
to duplicate this  event

he never  did  say just what charge he used

At that time I was just getting into reloading handguns and the only powders I had were Bullseye & 2400.
I had been reloading rifle & shotgun for about 20 years by then.
I don't recall the exact charge, but it was the lightest charge of BE I could find in a manual.
Economy was my #1 driving force being unemployed or underemployed at the time.
Money was a real problem & choices were few.

    

[S.B.]

Try adding 1-2% pure tin to your mix?  You may want to try beagling out the check area of this mold, too.  Please don't shoot up the walls in your house or garage experimenting.
Steve

[coyotejoe]

Well I have never had that experience but I do recall seeing lots of warnings about light loads with the "half jacketed" bullets that there was danger of a jacket sticking in the bore. I don't see why that could not happen with a gas check and piddly loads as well.

[odoh]

Just doing a little wag'ing here ~ What if the chk wasn't crimped/attached properly? (At one time a long time ago, I know lymans were slip on's w/o a need to crimp). Then to take this guessing a step further ~ the chk slipped completely off the base of the bullet into the powder charge by rough handling during processing or a bumpy ride in a pickup AND skewed/cant'ed/tilted so that when fired the chk wasn't really experiencing a necceary pressure differential as some of the powder was burning in front of it also as it migrated around the cant'ed chk prior to firing?

Now putting my imagination away as I personally never experienced any chk slipping off a bullet as having room to tilt in a properly resized case ~ and in fact actually was found to be tight in the case (as in having to break down a cartride). However, I have had strange/rare things happen before.