445 Super Mag

[MSM]

  Well, I have read things like the ones CW posted before. I have also read that those results can not be duplicated in a lab. On the data, well, it is straight out of the Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition manual, so I am pretty sure it is not just a hap hazard load. CW I respect your position, and I wont ask you to change your stance, but I will respectfully continue to use the 2400. I realize 2400 and other powders are controversial, but if one finds the data in several accountable and published sources I reason it to be of good and sound judgment to proceed with knowledge, caution and care.
  Thanks for the opinion.
  MSM     

[petemi]

Shu, I'm a novice reloader and I bought loading blocks I have never used.  I do the same thing, prepare and prime my cases, charge one at a time and seat the bullet.  No chance for a double loaded or empty case.  Yeah, it takes longer, but I've got time....I'm retired.  Ya can still load em almost as fast as you can shoot em out of a Handi.  A few hours in the gun room keep me shooting for quite a while.

Pete

[Shu]

No disrespect to the guys who don't use the light loads everybody has thier thing. I believe it is a double charge situation and not from detonation. There are a couple of ways to prevent safety issues.
Engineering controls and process controls. Engineering controls would be not using pistol powders in large cases. Process controls are the one case with powder at a time. Both work well.
I use them little Lee scoopers and weigh each powder charge. I am not sure if it gives better accuarcy but it is my process control.  Also I didn't have a fancy powder dropper. I started realoding young and had to scrounge up each piece. At the time I made due with the minimal stuff I could load with. Yes I got some of them Lee Loaders you use with a hammer. That was a life time ago. I saved for a long time to get me a RCBS press. I have worked many years in research and development labs. Repeatability for each experiment was paramount.

Safety is more important than group size. I'll settle for hitting a 6 inch gong every time over a sub moa group. The sub moa group sure does give good bragging rights though.

Now who was it who thought this was a 445 thread. The 445 makes good sense but I am afraid LongTom bought all the brass. 

[gcrank1]

To return to topic:
A .44Mag uses a .429ish bullets, yet called .44
A .444Marlin uses the same, yet is called a .444
A .445 uses the same , yet is called a .445
I know we cant go back to when the .44Mag was derived from the .44Special, but..........
What would have been wrong with calling this .445 a .44Maximum? We already had the precident established.

[Flynmoose]

44 Maximum? Has a nice ring to it! I LIKE it!
FM

[nova71]

does anyone have a reamer to do the 44mag like is available for the 357mag?

I just got a 44mag barrel and thought it might be nice to make a shorty out of it and a 445 

[Slufoot]

If you need 445 brass and don't have any you can make it from either 30-40 Krag or 303 British brass.
Midway has 303 brass instock but they are out of 30-40 brass.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[quickdtoo]

Check with Pete before committing to 30-40 brass, he wasn't very happy with his, this reply on the same subject on another forum pretty much explains why and what to do about it.

Tim

I've made brass from .303 British and .30-40 Krag as mentioned. The .303 worked better. If you go that route, you should know that the rifle brass is thicker and has less capacity than .445 brass. Also because it's thicker, you will need to inside ream each case mouth in order to use bullets longer than about 240 grains. You will need a special expanding plug and will need to fireform if you don't have a complete set of expanders. It's a lot of work to shorten the cases too. I used standard large rifle primers. Also, because the rifle brass rim size is larger (even more so on the .30-40, I believe), it won't fit your .44 speedloaders. Finally, because the rifle brass rims are thicker, you may not have enough headspace for these rounds in your gun without thinning the brass head or making your gun's headspace longer, which in turn could create issues with factory .445 brass.

[petemi]

Check with Pete before committing to 30-40 brass, he wasn't very happy with his, this reply on the same subject on another forum pretty much explains why and what to do about it.

Tim

I've made brass from .303 British and .30-40 Krag as mentioned. The .303 worked better. If you go that route, you should know that the rifle brass is thicker and has less capacity than .445 brass. Also because it's thicker, you will need to inside ream each case mouth in order to use bullets longer than about 240 grains. You will need a special expanding plug and will need to fireform if you don't have a complete set of expanders. It's a lot of work to shorten the cases too. I used standard large rifle primers. Also, because the rifle brass rim size is larger (even more so on the .30-40, I believe), it won't fit your .44 speedloaders. Finally, because the rifle brass rims are thicker, you may not have enough headspace for these rounds in your gun without thinning the brass head or making your gun's headspace longer, which in turn could create issues with factory .445 brass.

Yeah, I went through all of that, and it really isn't worth the work.  The fact of the matter is I loaded about 100 .445s today.  I'd guess perhaps 75 in .445 brass and about 25 in cut down, rim trimmed .30-40.  The other adder is once you load the cut down brass, you have to factory crimp them or they won't chamber.  IMHO, too much work and effort.  I only do it cause dats what I got ta use, "n I'm too cheap ta trow it out.

Pete

[Slufoot]

Great info Tim and Pete!
If you REALLY need the brass it can be done.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[gcrank1]

And to think........at one time I was perfectly happy to only have a muzzleloader. No cases, dies, etc., and with the flintlock I didnt even need primers. Ah, the good ol' days........

[petemi]

And to think........at one time I was perfectly happy to only have a muzzleloader. No cases, dies, etc., and with the flintlock I didnt even need primers. Ah, the good ol' days........

Ya know, I miss that.  I had a couple of nice flinters and a bunch of cap locks, and used them for everything from bunnies to bear.  When my eyes went downhill, I wouldn't put a scope on them and couldn't see the sights and the target and sold them.  The money went into scoped Handis.  The next to the last one we have, a .50 Hawken went to a close friend for Christmas.  Patty's got a .45 Seneca left and two .44 Colt Navys.

Pete

[MSM]

  On the .445 Super Mag, I really think it is a cool idea. Even with the lack of brass availability and the difficulty in making brass from other cases, I think it could be a project some where down the road for me. So I checked th Midway USA sight for dies...whoa! They seem to be available, but they are pricey...and the ones I am looking at are not carbide dies. Am I missing something? Is there a less expensive die set (perhaps carbide?) that I am over looking?
   MSM

[quickdtoo]

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm

Problems surfaced early with the .445 SuperMag revolver and also with the .445 brass. The first guns had oversize cylinders and the brass was not properly annealed. Problems with sizing .445 SuperMag brass has also resulted whether using either .445 or .44 Magnum carbide sizing dies both of which often raise a sharp ring of metal right above the base of the fired shell. Standard non-carbide .44 Magnum sizing dies will give better results. In my reloading of the .445, I use neither .445 nor .44 Magnum sizing dies but instead opt for a custom RCBS .44 Schafer UltraMag sizing die that puts a slight taper on the case from base to mouth, and is much easier on brass. It is somewhat of a nuisance to use as cases must be lubed and virtually hand fed into the very sharp, very flat base of the sizing die, but the results are well worth it. Most sizing dies have a slight funnel shape at the bottom to assist entrance of the case mouth; the .44 UltraMag die does not.

[Ditchdigger]

Of all the guys that did the rechamber job after me( 10 or 12) all of them used the 44 mag dies to full length size there brass and I have never heard of any problems. 445  brass was alway abundant,and there was no shortage until about a year ago.This is one potent rd.,that use's less powder and has less recoil for its power than just about any caliber I have used.The 265 gr. Hornady bullet was made for the 444 and is a very good bullet for pentatration. 
Digger

[bikerbeans]

Help me out here.  I see the 445 SM as being a 444M Lite.  Am I missing something?  If you are going to do the rechamber, why not go to the 444M, which is a lot easier to find ammo and brass for, plus offers more case capacity?  I understand the 445 SM has it's place in states like Indiana with a 1.625" SW cartridge limit for deer hunting.

BB

[petemi]

Tom, it's like the mountain...it's there, ya just gotta do it.  I just slaughtered a jug out back with mine.  A lot of folks are into varmint calibers like  the .17, .204, .218, .222, .223, .22-250 etc, etc.  That is wonderful, to each his own. Some of us just like to punch big slow boolits down range.  Yes, the .444 is on my "To acquire" list along with the 500, but that doesn't mean the .445 or the .45-70 are gonna be traded.  The .445 is a super special round to shoot....ya need to try it.  Come up and shoot mine.

Pete

[gcrank1]

Before I would buy new dies I sure would try my carbide 44Mag set; and those cases might only need the upper end resized to take the bullet, rather than the whole length anyway. I doubt that my loads would reach a high enough pressure to make them sticky on extraction, and typically, if I reach that point in load developement I just back off a tad and all is good.

[petemi]

I have the .44 Mag deluxe carbide Lee four die set with the factory crimp die and it works well with the .445.  The .445 brass doesn't need to be factory crimped, but cut down rifle brass does.

All I can say is the .445 is a hoot to shoot.  I also think it will kill better than the .44, especially on black bear.

Pete

[Shu]

Sorry i am still stuck on the flintlock thing, you guys are much older than I thought.

Most pistol cartridges can be loaded with the same set of dies per its family. 38/357, 45 acp/45 colt, 44spc/44 mag. I would guess the maxi's are the same.

[gcrank1]

We aint old,
We Sages!
Watch yer topknot........

[cwlongshot]

We aint old,
We Sages!
Watch yer topknot........

...Watch urine. 

[Shu]

It was the flintlock and good ol days comment that got me. I am thinking he went west with Lewis and Clark and just decided to stay.

[petemi]

A few years back, I drove through Montana and almost called Patty telling her to hang a "For Sale" sign on our place and meet me there.  We moved "West" from Florida 20 years ago, but if I had seen Montana, I'd be there, not here on Da U.P of Michigan.  Not that it is not wonderful here, it really is.  It's too late now to make any moves.  We're too old, too many close friends and family, it's no time to start over. Were I twenty years younger, I'd be hunting Montana with a flintlock.......and a Handi or twelve. I think next year, I'm going to hunt there.  It's probably my last chance to do it.

Pete

[bikerbeans]

Pete,

You said you were headin' south to hunt next year, Montana ain't exactly south of da U.P.   Least ways not on my map.

BB

[nova71]

turn your map over