445 Super Mag

[dannyfro]

I have noticed that this cartridge seems to be fairly popular on the forum. I have an addiction to all things gun related and tend to study up on all odds and ends of different calibers/cartridges but to be honest I am sad to say I know very little about the 445 Super Mag. What are its advantages? Ballistics? Anyone with personal first hand experience? Guns that are out of the norm tend to intrigue me. Any information would be much appreciated.

Dan

[quickdtoo]

I don't have one, but I rechambered a 44mag barrel for Pete, I'll leave it up to him to tell ya about it since he actually shoots it!!   It will push a 300gr XTP close to 2000fps, will shoot other shorter .44 cal cartridges as well just as the 357Max will also shoot 38spl and 357mag. Pete has been waiting for Starline to make some brass for several months, they are the only source,  AA pistol data below.

Tim

[petemi]

Well, Tim brought me up on this one

I certainly love it.  It shoots .44 Special, .44 Russian, .44 Mag and the .445s.  Brass is rare and pricey, but once you find it,  you've got it and it is just a tad more to reload for than the .44 Mag.  Just a bit more powder to load it full.  It is very close to full load, and even above the .45-70s trapdoor levels.  If ya only had one rifle, I think it would do it all.  I haven't shot mine in a bit because I've been wrapped up in my (thank you again, Tim) .38-55 deer hunting and putting new glass on my .357 Maxi.  Today is another nice day, so it may come out for a stroll.

My .44 barrel is one of the older overbored ones and that poses some reloading difficulties.  You have to use oversized bullets and factory crimp die.  It is on a SB2 frame, and I wouldn't put a .445 on anything less.  If ya got questions, just land here or PM me.

I can't tell you much about ballistics, but with a more than a tad holdover I can ring the 300 yard gong with it.  It's it's one of those you have to shoot and learn.  It's not like pointing a .22-250 or a 25-06 point blank at 250 - 300 yards.

Pete

[Ditchdigger]

I was one of the first ones to do the 445 in a handirifle,and there was several on this forum that did'nt believe my chrono at first.After about 10 more were done,the results were the same as mine. With a half a grain off max loads with 296,mine done 1975 fps with the 300 gr. XTP,2166fps with the 265 gr. Hornady,and 2260 with the 240 gr.bullet.
The 180's were near 2500 fps. Its very near 444 in performance and a lot less kick than the 45 70.
Mine had the .432 bore,and the chamber was .006" over in the chamber.I got swelling of the brass from the web forward,with all my loads. They fulleangth rezised easily,and I could get 6 or 8 loadings from them(or more)Its a very worthwhile cartridge. Nearly all loads would group 1 1/2"at  100 Yds.   Hope this helps.  Digger

[petemi]

Hey digger, I want to thank you again.  That was special.   (Private Note).  I agree, I can push a bullet out of my .445 as fast or faster than my .45-70.  In my opinion, it will do all the .45-70 will.  Probably take some flak here on this.

Pete

[cwlongshot]

  Probably take some flak here on this.

Pete

ONLY because your THE loudest proponent of the 45/70 here next to Spanky maybe!!! LOL. At least you WHERE until we convinced you to try the Maximum!

Just face it Pete, you LOVE ALL your calibers best, just like the rest of us!!!

Merry Christmas
CW

[knight0334]

The good thing about rechambering a .44mag Handi to .445 is the gain in velocity to help overcome the rather slow twist rate that they come with.   With the 1:38" twist, slower velocities and/or longer(heavier) bullets tend to have some stabilization issues from my experience.  When rechambered for .445 you can crank them up a bit for more velocity.   You still retain the ability to shoot .44mag, .44spl, and .44Russian out if it.

[6x6 elk]

There will be a wait on the brass, they won't make the 445 brass till they get the back order up to 60,000. They are only up to 20,000.  Just called today.

[gcrank1]

I dont have my CotW handy; can you 'make' these out of .444Marlin?

[quickdtoo]

I tried, broke the carbide insert in my Lee die, I dunno if you could do it with a better die or not, there's almost .010" difference in the case head of the two rounds, that's a lot of solid brass to resize small enough to chamber.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=42

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=191

[petemi]

CW, Merry Christmas to you and yours.  Yeah, you're right, especially on the straight walls.  I just love them all.....that little Maxi shorty is very special.  Happy Holidays to all of you lurking around here.

Pete

[dannyfro]

So the SB1 shotgun frame cannot handle the 445 Super Mag. So you would have to go out buy an action in another caliber just to buy a barrel to rechamber and then hope to find brass. Well for now that puts that to the back burner. Thanks for all your replies. Appreciated as always. Merry Christmas.

Dan

[LONGTOM]

There will be a wait on the brass, they won't make the 445 brass till they get the back order up to 60,000. They are only up to 20,000.  Just called today.

Tim, this has turned out to be a longer reply than I thought it would be so if you feel it should be moved that is fine with me.
Not trying to highjack this thread and not dumping on anyone but just an observation I have made while being a member here and over the years as a hunter/shooter.

When are you all going to learn to pick this stuff up along the way as you find it cheap while there is still plenty to be had.
I was intriged with the 445 many years ago and hoped to one day have one.
Well, that day came about a year ago in the form of a handi barrel from the classifieds.
I don't need to look or wait because I have a few hundred new starline caseings on hand.
I do this with a lot of calibers.
So many of the old calibers are being dropped each year so I tell everyone, even if you don't reload, if you really like the caliber, buy plenty of both ammo and brass.
If they do drop it or it becomes hard to find, you don't have to pay out the nose for it and can weather the storm.
Just like when the powder/primers were hard to get.
I am not saying buy everything in sight like some did with the primers but some here and there along the way.
Some call it hording but I call it a smart hedge for down the road.
If you lose instrest in it you can always sell it.
A pickup couldn't hold all the brass & bullets I have on hand.
Many for calibers I don't even own.
I may one day, who knows.
In the mean time, I don't have to go looking.
When Tim posted some time ago about the 45/120 brass being on sale, I bought a hundred for just a little over the price of 50.
I haven't even done my BC yet, but I will and i'm ready.
I just picked up 50 new 50/70 brass from a friend fo $25.00.
Not sure I will ever have one but I bet I could make a profit on the brass and then some!
Try finding correct head stamped 43 spanish brass cheap.
A few years back I was able to pick up new/correct head stamped BELL brass loaded ammo for $39.00 a box.
I bought 4 boxes, all they had.
Now the brass is twice that much and on basic brass.
Sorry to ramble on so but I think you get where I am comming from.
Even the newer stuff.
Each year they change the ammo or bullets in it.
When you find an ammo that shoots in your gun, don't just buy a box or two, buy all you can afford.
Most of the time you can cut a deal if you take a case or more.
Buy it and you will have it.
You know you are going to need more someday, or you can sell it.

I guess I am done!
I know, thank heavens!!! 



LONGTOM

[wreckhog]

I pick up every mint $5 set of reloading dies I ever see. Regardless of the caliber. If I don't, I will likely trade into something in that caliber within a year.

[phatgemi]

There will be a wait on the brass, they won't make the 445 brass till they get the back order up to 60,000. They are only up to 20,000.  Just called today.

This alone is causing me to be hesitant...........

[LONGTOM]

Go for it.
In the mean time while you are waiting to get some brass you can still enjoy it with 44 mag loads.



LONGTOM

[knight0334]

I dont have my CotW handy; can you 'make' these out of .444Marlin?

No.  .444 Marlin is a tapered case, which starts out at closer to the diameter of a .45 Colt, then tapers down to that of a .44mag.   The .445 is a straight-walled case, a longer version of the .44mag.  When you blow a .444 Marlin case walls straight you end up with a .450 Mongo.

See diagrams below.

.445 Super Magnum


.444 Marlin


.44 Magnum


.45 Colt

[gcrank1]

Ive done a few 'heavily' resized/reformed cases (BTW, thanx for posting those illustrations, very helpful in this) and with the rim dia. closely matching one could resize the .444M down to the webb (which, being solid, doesnt want to compress, as Tim found out), stop there and mount the case on a 'spud' in the lathe (live center in the tailstock into the primer pocket) and turn the unsized remainder to the correct dia. This maintaines the integrity of the case because the webb is solid, so no pressure issues there.
This is a bit more advanced than most do, but not unusual in making obsolete cases from readily available ones.

[gendoc]

There will be a wait on the brass, they won't make the 445 brass till they get the back order up to 60,000. They are only up to 20,000.  Just called today.

with that said... i'm glad i got 500 of them coupla years back when me an tha boy was do'n some testing
on his #1 barrel. now i gotta new #1 barrel in (wasa 44) now itsa 445 !!!! as of last evening 

[MSM]

 I have no investment in the .445...yet, but it seems like a great cartridge for the NEF. On the brass, it looks like Midway has Starline available now for the .445. Maybe I will take some of Longtom's advice...
  What are the current .44 magnum bore and grove dimensions for the H&R rifles? I have seen in this forum where in the past they were a bit over sized, which seems to be a common practice in the arms industry with the .44 mag. Having a barrel that would take a .429 or .430 cast bullet would be nice.
  Merry Christmas,
   MSM

[gcrank1]

I think so too; as much as I like the handling of fat, long cases, my cast bullet loads leave a lot of empty case (though Trail Boss is showing me promise);ie, low load density, so I must make sure I chamber a case, then tip the muzzle up to position the powder back to the primer before firing. If not, the shot to shot variation in velocities is pretty wide.
I must admit that, even with that, I get satisfactory accuracy so factory chambering are not a problem, but I keep thinking that it would be nice to test a .444 against this .445 and see what happens.
Wish List Addition: that I would find a rifle manufacturer that really listened to its customer base, and that for a few dollars more would do 'custom chamberings' like this.

[MSM]

  Hmm. I loaded some .45-70 loads with light charges of 2400 and thought the velocity jumped around a bit on the chronograph. There are a couple things I could try to get it more consistent...I think I'll try the powder positioning technique gcrank1  has tried. I still like the idea of the .445 SM though.
  MSM 

[blind ear]

Would shortening a 444 case work for makeing loads comparatable to 44mag or 44 specl, etc? Or would it be necessary? ear

[gcrank1]

MSM, I dont think 2400 is all that good for reduced loads, anyway it never worked all that well for me. Ive been using IMR4227 for quite a while now, in smaller than 45 cal., and there are a number of powders that consitently get mentioned at cast bullet shoots for certain calibers (and because of the plain base cast bullet limitations it is almost by definition a 'reduced load', well, compared to those high steppin' jacketed loads).
I make pretty civilized loads for my guns, just more pleasant for me, and dont mind a bit of a loopy trajectory. And many of mine are and have been classic big cases, so dealing effectively with that 'empty space' is something I have had to do right. Ive run loads across the C-graph with the powder in different positions to see the effect, and the method I suggested , without a doubt, is the highest average velo with the smallest spread. It isnt a problem to do shooting offhand, but can be a little problematic on the bench (but a Handi is problematic on the bench anyway).

[quickdtoo]

I have no investment in the .445...yet, but it seems like a great cartridge for the NEF. On the brass, it looks like Midway has Starline available now for the .445. 

Midway is still back ordered until Feb....at least, if you don't click the quantities, you'll won't see that, it looks like it's in stock if you don't.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=941109164

 Hmm. I loaded some .45-70 loads with light charges of 2400 and thought the velocity jumped around a bit on the chronograph. There are a couple things I could try to get it more consistent...I think I'll try the powder positioning technique gcrank1  has tried. I still like the idea of the .445 SM though.
  MSM  

28gr of 2400 and the 350gr Hornady(old Alliant data) works great in one of my 45-70s, it's a favorite load for several members here, I know MSP ret likes it, this group was shot from 100yds with a WGRS peep sight, I made windage adjustments after shot #2 (over correction  )and #3, WGRS sight adjustments aren't exactly precise.....neither are my eyes!!  

Tim

[gcrank1]

I really should mention here that I no longer will use any kind of 'powder positioning wad' due to well documented cases of chamber rings from them. I know some guys have used them for years successfully, but once you ring the chamber, and it is always just at the base of the seated bullet, the chamber is, well, less than you want.
Now a 'filler' is not a wad, and can work well in straightwalled cases. By filler I mean the old tried and true carded wool or tuft of cotton, kapok, or even dacron. A small tuft pulled into a wispy cloud of this carefully inserted to fill that air space (NOT wadded in like a packing) between powder and bullet base.
Key here is 'filler' OK,
wad, NOT OK
I just cant stand the thought of discovering I put a ring in my chamber.........

[MSM]

  It seems 2400 powder is some what controversial for use in the .45-70. I have not had any issues...yet. I hear good things about Accurate Arms 5744 powder. I guess it is a bulky powder and fills the case better than 2400. I may buy a pound of it soon.
  My 2400 loads with the Remington 405 JFN bullets seem to be just under 2" at 100 yards. I may have gotten it under 1-1/2" buy seating the bullet further out. Fun stuff.
  MSM

[cwlongshot]

  I am NOT a fan of any fast burning powder is such a cavernous case as the 45-70. I have posted against its use for many years. I have seen firearms blown apart from its use. Feeling the need to adjust the powders position in the case, is a billboard screaming NO, DON'T DO IT, BEWARE! More importantly, there is NOT REASON for it. We have so many powder choices EXPRESSLY MADE for use th this caliber!!  Both XM5744 and Trail Boss are two excellent choices.

 Detonation is a REAL issue and something we as reloads need to be aware of. Anytime the primers spark can travel over the powders charge, you have the possibility of detonation. Anytime powder density's drop below 50% this is possible. Fast burning powders accentuate these possibilities. There is much unknown as well as much to read on the subject.

Here is a couple quick search results:

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/burn.html

I know people use them, but this doesn't make it smart, or safe. It's much like playing russian roulette. Do yourself a favor, research this, read, learn and decide for yourself.

CW

[quickdtoo]

Here's a lot of good data for those that want to use light loads for their rifles using pistol powders, the results of 80,000 rounds down range.   http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Just an FYI, the 2400/350gr Hornady load is 27gr start @1503fps and 29gr max @ 1579fps.  

Tim
 

[Shu]

CW,
This is one time I got to disagree with you. I got my Unique load from a Lyman cast bullet book.
I size and prime all my brass, then set up my seating die. I put powder in one case then seat a bullet on it. No chance of a double charge. Then grab another. I have been using this process for years. Rifle and pistol regardless of powder. When I was competing with the pistol everyone was afraid of Bullseye powder becuase it was easy too double charge. My process takes longer to load up a bunch but it has worked for me for along time.
R,
Shu