Reloading 45-70 for SB2 handi?

[onthefarm]

They list trapdoor, lever and modern load tables.  Which should I use?

Anyone have favorite loads for this.
 

[onthefarm]

Disregard.  I saw the answer just a couple posts below in "BC pressures"

[sabbatus]

factory will tell you that the lever gun loads are safe.  some people on here will load to the modern or ruger #1 levels.  its been my experience that lever gun loads will do anything that you need from a 45/70 anything more than that you are risking your own safety, recoil become difficult to manage for most and in my rifle accuracy suffers terribly.   as far as loads are concerned i am having great success with imr 3031 and imr 4198, not always in that order and my hunting bullet is cast of wheel weight using lee 340 gr mold seated to touch the rifling. Another favorite is 70 gr of ffg goex a ox-yoke wonder wad and lymans 457677.  you will find that your handi probably has a appetite of its own and everyone will have their own favorite load and all work great. A  bit of trigger time and yours will tell you what it likes best

[BBF]

........ my hunting bullet is cast of wheel weight using lee 340 gr mold seated to touch the rifling.

 How is that bullet working out for you and what sort of MV are you getting?

[bikerbeans]

If you haven't shot a unmodified 45/70 Handi before you might try a box of the Remington 405 SPs (trapdoor load) and a box of the Hornady Leverrolution 325s (Levergun load) and see what you think.  Both of these rounds usually perform well in a Handi and you can compare the recoil difference and see what you think.  My best handload uses the Remington 405 SP bullet, H4198 in a upper range lever gun load, load data is from hodgdon's website.  You can reload the the brass but the Hornady brass is a bit short.

BB

[quickdtoo]

If you haven't shot a unmodified 45/70 Handi before you might try a box of the Remington 405 SPs (trapdoor load) and a box of the Hornady Leverrolution 325s (Levergun load) and see what you think. 

Actually the LE ammo is a trapdoor load too or it wouldn't be safe all 45-70 firearms.

Tim

Hornady LEVERevolution™ ammunition is loaded to SAAMI specifications so it’s
safe to use in the 1873 Trapdoors, 1886 Winchesters and rifles of similar strength.
This data is specifically developed for use in these rifles and is safe for ANY other
modern 45-70 that is in good shape.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ftx_load_data/45-70_trapdoor_ftx.pdf

[petemi]

First, the Handi is listed by Buffalo Bore as a firearm that will handle their ".45-70 Magnum" ammo.  Secondly, there are still parts of a couple of deer in my freezer you can question about the effectiveness of the Hornady LE in a Handi.  It's my opinion that the Handi .45-70 will handle any commercial load you can find.  Just now, I'm pushing a .405 gr. bullet at very close to 2000 fps with no sign of pressure.  Furthermore, as previously stated here and other places, it is doubtful you could buy .45-70 ammo over the counter that wasn't trap door level safe.

Pete

[BBF]

  ...........Just now, I'm pushing a .405 gr. bullet at very close to 2000 fps with no sign of pressure.  ............

Pete

   You like a bit of pain in your life every so often!

[sabbatus]

scatterbrain,    pushing the 340 lee with 50.0 gr of imr 3031 gave me 1712 fps out of the 22 in. barrel  and at 100 yds gave me a 1" wide by 1.5" vertical group for 5 rds.   anything over 50 gr and accuracy fell of very quickly and less powder didnt seem to change group much, maybe just a gnats ass tighter. Going to play more with the bullet trying different lube and alloy to see if there will be much in change.

as far as the leverevolution ammo is concerned,  i have not shot factory loads but have loaded my own with the bullets. Last deer season that was my hunting bullet and it never will be again.  With handloads in the 1900 fps range i found in two deer the fragments of the bullets and the carnage that goes with a polymer tipped bullet that expands to quickly.  the one that turned me away from the bullet completely was a neck shot that hit no bone yet the first copper petal was found at the entrance wound.  Now i cant argue that those bullets shoot very well,  right at a inch at a hundred, but i use my 45/70 for everything that walks and i am not convinced that id be happy with that bullet on a big bear or a elk if it comes unglued at the entrance site on a whitetail. Not trying to pick arguments with those that love the thing, just stating my experiences.

[BBF]

I've never used that gummy tip bullet and see no application for it by me.
Have you ever tried a faster powder then 3031? I dislike unburned powder in the barrel and have switched to RX-7 for "painful" loads, !MR 4891 for a bit less pain and 2400& Blue Dot for pleasant.
Did you shoot anything with that Lee bullet?

[bikerbeans]

Hornady does some strange stuff, like making a load specifically for a level gun and then leaving 12K C.U.P on the table.   That would be almost as bad as marketing "light magnum" rounds, oh wait they do that too.  

BB

[sabbatus]

havent shot anything other than paper yet with that bullet, have used the lyman 457122 330 gr. bullet in the past for dear and black bear and it worked out very well.  i just dont have that mold and the bullets were given to me when i first bought the rifle.  the lee bullet should do well as it has the features i like in a cast bullet for hunting, the main on being a big flat nose.

i have tried other powders in my rifle but for some reason keep going back to the 3031,  i started loading for the 45/70 about 15 years ago and that powder was what i was first recommended and it has never let me down. kind of a aint broke dont fix it thing.  I have used some imr 4198 to good success and will continue to do so but i seem to get tighter groups with the 3031.  My other true favorite is shooting black powder with this cartridge and rifle, am currently working with the same lee bullet, cast of 20-1 a home made lube and different charges of ffg and cartrudge grade goex.  this project is still in its infancy though.

[onthefarm]

I thought about shooting black powder in my 45-70.  I am a BP shooter also.  Can I just load 70gr from my powder measure into the cartridge and seat the bullet?

I'm new to reloading, so please take that into account if the questions are basic.  I received a RCBS press and a couple other items that I salvaged and cleaned up, and now I'm waiting for my 45-70 dies, some odds and ends, and powder/primer bullets. I have H4198 coming, CCI200 primers, and some 300gr Rem flat point bullets coming.  I expect to be using load data from a Lee book, and the Hogden web page, and start out slow and safe.

[BBF]

If you use a 405 bullet or close to that weight I would suggest 55 gr(volume not scale). That was the cavalry load and has plenty of shove backwards as it is. The 70 gr load is macho

FYI
A load of 65 gr GOEX FFg will push a 405 gr Rem bullet from a Marlin 1895 at approx 1200+ ft/sec

[sabbatus]

before diving into loading black powder cartridges i recommend doing some research. There are many great books and articles that get into the intricacies of loading with BP. one of the handiest is spg lubricants BP Cartridge reloading primer.  The biggest thing to make sure of though is that there is no space between the bullet and the powder when using BP.

[D Garfield]

You might want to get a Lyman book, and some IMR SR4759 and try it.

 It shoots very good and is reasonably clean.

[rsl]

My BC likes a 300 grain lead bullet and 35 grains of 3031.. Mild and accurate..

[quickdtoo]

Here's one of the best black powder articles you'll find and it's on a Handi, the author is GBO member Junior1942.

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

[Squib]

I had tim help me a bit on loading 500gr hornady into my handi (it has a short throat, can't seat the real long bullets to the correct length).  I ended up putting the bullets just a half turn of the seating die deeper than what I needed to- to get the rifle/action to snap shut without difficulty.  what that is from rifle to rifle I do NOT know.  I'd go measure some but I shot them all up.  I used 40grs varget and the brass was good, the primers looked slightly flattened though.  Recoil isn't too bad.  I used starline brass and only use starline on my "creative" endeavors like that.  Ask tim/quick for his varget loads on the heavy bullets. 

The other one I use is the sierra 300gr hp (the only sierra .458) w/ 60-61grs of varget.  that load is disgustingly painful without modifying the gun.  Unlike the one above, this one is published widely (59-63grs varget), though different sources debate whether it's a level two or three load.  I've never seen any signs of abuse in brass used five times in my gun.

I packed a sock into my stock, then used a big spoon to cram birdshot into it, let it sit and settle overnight, tried it again and then twisted the excess sock length, zip-tied it, coiled it up, and put the buttpad back on (it ended up being 3 1/2 pounds of lead).  I use a limbsaver over that when I'm shooting off a bench but it doesn't work standing/hunting when taking hasty shots, so you're probably better off just using the sock/zip-tie/birdshot.  also I screwed a cheek-riser into the stock and glued it down and sanded a nice index spot into it for my cheekbone.  if I'm not right on (my index or "hold") then I can't see the sight, works for me.  It totally throws off the feel of the rifle but once you get used to it you'll be alright.  It's way better than getting that feeling in your face like you got punched in the jaw!

[Squib]

oh yeah, me and a buddy were shooting the 300gr sierra w/60.5-60.9grs varget yesterday.  it penetrates 7 inches of recently felled oak just fine, and though morbidly deformed it looked like it was "all there" (believe it or not, I didn't have a scale on me    ).  the shot was from about 70yds if you want to try to figure the kinetic energy (300gr projectile, roughly 2000 fps?).

is seven inches of oak a deer from front to back?  I'll try to find out in a few weeks.

[MSP Ret]

My all time favorite 45-70 hunting load, which I have spoken of it several times on this site, is 28.0 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 350 grain FPRN half jacket bullet.
Easy shooting, accurate to a fault (1" groups at 100 yards), and capable of putting down anything in the lower 48....<><....

P.S. - try it, you will like it.

[Big Blue]

My all time favorite 45-70 hunting load, which I have spoken of it several times on this site, is 28.0 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 350 grain FPRN half jacket bullet.
Easy shooting, accurate to a fault (1" groups at 100 yards), and capable of putting down anything in the lower 48....<><....

P.S. - try it, you will like it.

Thanks, I think I will give that a try. I have quite a few 350gr. Horn RN bullets. I used to load them over Varget, but a lot of unburnt powder and so so accuracy.

My favorite load uses the Rem. 405gr. bullets over 48.1gr. of IMR3031 at a COL of 2.550". They run about 1700FPS from an 18" barrel. I've used it to drop a Bison in it's tracks with just one shot.
Don

[BBF]

40 gr of smokeless and a 500 gr bullet has got to hurt on a normal weight Handi or any similar rifle.

[Junior1942]

Here's one of the best black powder articles you'll find and it's on a Handi, the author is GBO member Junior1942.

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

Tim, thanks for the kind words.  By the way, the J&B Welded on Shorty Ramp is still in place on my Handi barrel after eight years!  Also, I now use the Lee 459-500-3R and the Lee 457-450-F bullets cast of used shot alloy, which is harder than pure lead and softer than wheelweight alloys.  I use surplus WC860 smokeless powder instead of black or Pyrodex.  Clean-up is WAAAAY easier.  Instead of a grease cookie, I use cookie-lubed felt wads.  I get unburned powder grains unless I give either bullet a firm crimp.  However, the unburned powder grains made zero difference in accuracy or anything else.

As with black or Pyrodex, the proper amount of WC860 is whatever is SLIGHTLY compressed by the seated bullet.  Velocity with either bullet is ~1150 fps. 

I also still use Lee "whack it" loaders for 45-70.  I have two--one set up for the Lee 500 and the other one set up for the Lee 450.  Buy one now!  John Lee told me several years ago that the days of their "whack it" loader were numbered.

[tacklebury]

+1 on the article.  That's the reason I have my .45-70 and my wack-it-loaders.    I have re-read it many times.  I do stick to mostly smokless powder now in the form of RL7 due to the clean burn and easier cleaning.  Got my first deer with it in Sept. too.  Thanks for the article.

[bikerbeans]

Tim,

thanks for the link to Junior's article.

Junior,

thanks for the good read.

BB

[Junior1942]

    Ahhhh shucks, guys.  Thanks.  I need to do another campfire casting article and use one of my Lee 45-70 molds.  Maybe during the last week of muzzleloader season, Jan 17-23.  I can't go camping the first week, starting this Saturday, due to the drought and can't make a campfire.

We'll have hungry deer here come cold weather.  Due to the drought, here's almost zero acorns and zero persimmons.  I spent most of the morning in the woods looking for deer food sources for Saturday's opening. Nothing but a few wild hazelnut trees bearing nuts if they happen to be located where the roots can reach a water hole of some kind.  There's still lots of vegetation, however, but the leaves are droopy and dying.

[LONGTOM]

Since BP has been mentioned here maybe someone can answere a question for me.
I have read that Pyrodex pellets can be used in loading brass cases in the 45-70.
If this is true then why doesn't the air space around the pellets cause any problems?
I have asked this question here on GBO before and on other sites and no one has ever tried to answere it.
Any ideas?




LONGTOM

[Big Blue]

I have read that Pyrodex pellets can be used in loading brass cases in the 45-70.
If this is true then why doesn't the air space around the pellets cause any problems?
Any ideas?
LONGTOM

I've got a partial answer. Why not call Hodgdon and ask them? I've called them before with questions and they have always been very willing and able, besides, if anyone would know it should be them. Hodgdon-7:00am to 5:30pm Central Monday-Thursday : 913-362-9455
Don

[LONGTOM]

Now that's a good idea.
Sometimes we look so hard for something that we forget to look in the most obvious place.
I will try and do that tomorrow.
This is something that has stumped me for a long time.
Thanks BB.




LONGTOM