Another Frustrating Day at the Range!

[quickdtoo]

Still having primer problems in the 260 and 6x45, not as many as before, but still not 100% ignition, they all went on the second hammer fall, but that's still not good enough. I wanted to use Rem 9½Mags in the 260 with the IMR4320 loads that call for CCI250, but I didn't have enough of them, so used WLRM instead, still FTFs. So next step on that is to just use Rem 9½s and see if they work ok, had no problems with them in the 35 Whelen Imp. Had some more unexplained 2nd shot flyers too, first and third shots almost touching and the 2nd 4½" high!! Velocity is good at 2830fps with the 130gr Berger VLD Hunting, not much difference between shot to shot velocity, 2852, 2813, 2826..... I'm perplexed. 

The 6x45 WSR primers didn't work out so well, they all popped but started out with cratered primers at the start load, got a pierced primer on the first round of the max load of 23.5gr H322 with the 90gr NBT, so I didn't shoot any more of that load, 23.3gr ran 2455fps into 1¾" at 100yds which would be acceptable for deer at that range or a bit more, so I'll work with a different primer with that load. The 80gr Speer/H322 loads didn't do well at all, I started at 21.5gr, 22gr pierced a primer, so that ended the use of WSR primers, at least with H322.   

The highlight of the trip was the 35 Whelen Improved, shot two loads, BLC2 and the 200gr Rem, 67.5gr which shot good last time did the same this time, right at 1", just a tad over 2800fps. The other load was the Hornady 250gr RN on top of RL15, the start load of 61½gr shot into 1½" at 2552fps, 62-63gr groups opened up to 2-2½" at ~2650fps.

The pursuit of primers that work 100% continues. 

Tim

[carbineman]

Tim, If there was a way to send you some of the 9 1/2 M primers I would do it. During this latest primer supply problem, it was mainly the only rifle primer I could get and since I use them regularly I just kept on buying.

I also like BL-C2, and (WC846 the military equivalent) and W748. Outside of some WC680 and AA1680 for 7.62x39, they are the only three rifle powders I use.

I would be interested in hearing how you solve this primer problem.

[mauser98us]

Tim, Isn't it amazing the way a Whelan Improved outperforms?

[NFG]

You DON'T need mag primers with the 260 or 4320...except in very cold weather and then 4320 can cause FTF's, at least with my 17 Rem....I use a lot of 4320 in various calibers and it is the best powder for my 338-06.  I hardly ever use mag primers even in my larger calibers and only with the largest cases, belted mag and larger... and "usually" only with ball powder that I know is harder to ignite.

The 260 Rem is usually a very easy one to get to shoot...I have one slated for my XP100 action later in the year...hopefully.

Do you use a primer pocket uniformer...if not buy a carbide one and recut the pockets...sometimes the primers don't go all the way to the bottom of the pocket in a new cased and have just enough slop to allow the primer to move down a bit and in doing so the primer is shoved all the way down and absorbs the energy of the first hit, then fires the second hit...It has happened to me several times but in a T/C Contender.

Increase the hammer spring pressure might help and chucking the firing pin in a drill and use a chainsaw file to move the bevel back a bit thereby lengthening the firing pin protrusion might also help.

Uniform the pockets, seat the bullet out into the lands, use a medium load and re-fireform the brass, then back out your sizing die and keep it away from the shoulder...THEN use a standard primer, WRL, R91/2, Fed or CCI and you might also try 760, RL19(very good), H4350, AA2700(hi-velo,lo-press) or Varget(on the faster burning side)

Luck

[quickdtoo]

Tim, If there was a way to send you some of the 9 1/2 M primers I would do it. During this latest primer supply problem, it was mainly the only rifle primer I could get and since I use them regularly I just kept on buying.

I also like BL-C2, and (WC846 the military equivalent) and W748. Outside of some WC680 and AA1680 for 7.62x39, they are the only three rifle powders I use.

I would be interested in hearing how you solve this primer problem.

Thanks, I'll be sure to post the solution. 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

NFG, primer pockets have been uniformed, pin projection is ~.060", Wolff heavy hammer spring, the whole works already. These are fireformed cases resized to just allow the action to lock up, so seating into the lands would be a moot point. The data for this load calls for CCI250 primers which didn't work either, hence the hopefully easier to pop WLRM. Gonna go back to Rem 9½ with the same data and see where that goes....after I buy another box of Bergers. 

Thanks,

Tim

http://www.clcweb.net/Shooting/Remington_Model_7/remington_model_7.html

[Spanky]

It's a bummer about the continued problems but you'll get it figured out.
Keep at it.



Spanky

[trotterlg]

Well, you know, sometimes a $200.00 rifle shoots like, well, a $200.00 rifle.  There does exist in the world problems to which there are no solutions.  Hope these aren't amoung them.   Larry

[gcrank1]

Tim, since you are 'the man' I hesitate......but hey, I'd ask any good friend with that flyer/stringing problem, Have you checked that buttstock throughbolt torque recently?
Also, Ive been thinking that the oversize wood hole right there at the frame rear, where the bolt threads in, may be a contributing factor in a lot of this. Wasnt it NFG who said that .005 will result in 1" off @100?
Under recoil that gap and/or the seat of the buttstock in the frame may be giving a tad. I dont recall reading anything in the FAQs regarding this in particular, but perhaps I need to revisit them, as  there is a lot I may have not fully 'assimilated' in the past.

[quickdtoo]

Same stock that was on it when I took it to the range originally, I even swapped out the Dick's syn camo I had on it last time and used the original frame  on it so I was back to square one when it shot so good the first trip out, hoping the off center pin strike might not hurt with the Win primers, it worked fine with the CCI200 primers I used then, I was just hoping for better velocity, but that first 4350 load was very accurate, just a lot slower than I was hoping for, ~2500fps compared to 2800fps with 4320.

thx,

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,203238.msg1099056802.html#msg1099056802

[quickdtoo]

Tim, If there was a way to send you some of the 9 1/2 M primers I would do it. During this latest primer supply problem, it was mainly the only rifle primer I could get and since I use them regularly I just kept on buying.

I also like BL-C2, and (WC846 the military equivalent) and W748. Outside of some WC680 and AA1680 for 7.62x39, they are the only three rifle powders I use.

I would be interested in hearing how you solve this primer problem.

I decided to bite the bullet and order the Rem primers, both 7½ for the 6x45 and 9½M for the 260, since I'm paying hazmat, also ordered some new powder that I can't get here to try since I'm almost out of IMR4320.

thanks,

Tim

I have to agree, my latest bout with FTFs has been caused by off center pin strikes on CCI BR4 primers in the 6x45, center strikes on the same ammo using a different frame work fine, pin projection isn't relative since they both have ~.060" static, I did a little frame swap at the range yesterday to confirm this, all the ammo that wouldn't fire on the original frame even after multiple hits and rotating the round in the chamber, fired on the first hammer fall on the other frame. Did the same thing with CCI 250s on the 260 Rem, I think they're just too hard as I had several that wouldn't go even with center pins strikes of the replacement frame, those loads will be replicated with Rem 9½ mag primers because the loads that fired were very accurate.

Tim

Tim, The Rem 9 1/2M primer was the answer for me with the handi/topper platform and it is now all that I use. When I first had my .308, the rifle had many FTF problems with reloads using CCI 250's. I now use just Rem 9 1/2M's and have many of the same lot # in stock after seeing how well they worked in all my H&R/NEF rifles. BTW I use all ball type powders.

I have some CCI 250's left that get used in Savage and Browning rifle reloading with no problems.

[petemi]

Tim, I couldn't resist this:  Ya gotta GO UP TO THE TOP AND READ THE FAQS.

Pete

[NFG]

I ALMOST did a 6x45 (6mm-223) but I already have a 6mmBR and 243W plus I had a 6mm-284, so I ended up doing a 20x45(20-223, 20 Practical), but every time I read about someone doing a 6mmx45 or 6mm TCU I want to build one or at least do a switch barrel...I think the 6.5 TCU, 7mm TCU or 30 "TCU"  or Whisper would be great also...

FWIW...My Load from a Disk indicates ~52KCUP for 4320 at ~2800fs...~43KCUP for H4350 at ~2500fs.

Sometimes...when things aren't working for me...I start over...too often in the heat of messups you can overlook or just pass on something that is causing the problem.

One way FOR SURE to know if it is the case or the primer moving is to load the bullet into the lands...THEN you KNOW for sure if case movement is the cause...I've even resorted to depth measuring primers to be sure the are seated to the bottom.  I have a 256 Win T/C Contender that will have a FTF fairly often unless I seat the bullet into the lands about 0.020" or a bit more, and it always fires on the second slap.  I got pretty quick with the thumb during that time.  Mike (censored word) suggested that to me way back.

SOMETHING is definitely slowing down or interfering with the firing pin impact...unless you got a bad batch of primers...if it were mine I would definitely lengthen the firing pin a bit and even take a close look at the firing pin return spring...maybe it's binding somehow.

As for the 6mm...LD indicates a max load of 23.2gr H322/2657fs/53666CUP/2.35"COAL/22" bbl...your load is running ~54KCUP at near ~2700fs with H322...no wonder you're getting pierced primers...that is a HOT load for a bolt...I don't care WHAT the manuals say...H322 is a good powder but it will spike pressures at the high end with as small an increase as a tenth of a grain.

I should think your 6mmx45 would shine with a 65-75 gr bullet, all my 6mm's like Horndays and Noslers(Bergers are good too for varmints) in that weight...and Benchmark, AA2300(the best near 3000fs at ~45KCUP 100% load density), 748...I've never had all that much luck with H322 or H335 so while I might try it for accuracy sake, hardly ever actually use it.

Load development can be a PITA sometimess, but it's all fun.....

Luck

[quickdtoo]

Tim, I couldn't resist this:  Ya gotta GO UP TO THE TOP AND READ THE FAQS.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I'll be sure to do that!! 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Barrel length is 20" in both the 260 and 6x45, not interested in a light load in the 6x45, my goal is to take a doe with it this fall IF I can find a good shooting load for it with a bullet that will do the job.  COL for the 90gr NBT/H322 6x45 load is 2.390", .040" longer than Hodgdon data for the 90gr Speer, QL3.6 predicted it to be a good load at that length using the 90gr NBT.

Read Calhoun's article on primers, I also got a pierced primer with 22gr H322 with the 80gr Speer using the WSR, start is 21.5gr, COL is 2.350" which s .022" off the lands, so primer choice in the 6x45 is critical, as I stated before, Hodgdon calls for CCI250M in their 6x45 data, all data calls for primers with thicker cups in the 6x45 as I've posted more than once, so thicker cups are what I'll use, just need to find one that works, hopefully the Rem primers will do the trick.

The new powder I ordered is A2520 for the 6x45, haven't used a lot of AA's powders, decided it would be a good one to work with for something different, I have RL17 to try in the 260 too, it's getting great reviews in 24" barrels, but haven't seen any on short barrel performance.

thx,

Tim

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/alliant-releases-new-reloder-17-powder/

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

- Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2.

[NFG]

Is that COL for your rifle with that bullet touching the lands...or what?  There are several very good bullets in the 70-90 gr range that would work well for deer including FMJ's...at the lower speeds even "varmint" bullets act more like hunting bullets and don't open up violently...it's always a matter of choice...at the speeds the 6x45 runs at Barnes and Nosler partitions will act more like FMJ's

I'm not sure what is the "critical" problem with primers in the 6x45 except at high pressures and powders that like to spike at the higher end...I've only had those kinds of problems under those conditions...In the old days CCI's had hard cups and Rems were soft, but today you can't go with that...things change.  I've yet to have a pierced primer in my NEF's using ANY caliber in a 223 case or any other case for that matter...

I will check out Calhoons primer information...it's been a long time since I've done any primer testing other than for accuracy.  Thx

Bob Milek had some very good articles on the 6mm's in his bolt pistols way back...you might do some searching on Shooting Times and Guns and Ammo.  He took several head of Antelope with a XP100 in 6mm, not sure which case...can't remember schat anymore.

AA2520 is a very good powder...I use a lot of AA's powders, 2230, 2460 2520 and 2700, they usually give the highest velocityies and lowest pressures compared to IMR or Hodgdons...AA2460 is the best powder for my 458 American, just slightly slowers than AA2230.

For a 85 gr Nosler Part, LD gave 2679fs/50404CUP/25.3gr AA2460(100% load density) at 2.35", 20"bbl...AA2520 didn't come up at all... but Varget, one step slower or so...gave 2610fs/47828CUP/25.3 gr Varget(100% load density) at 2.35", 20" bbl...I would tend to go with the lower pressure load...maybe AA2520 would be in the same ballpark.  H335 is reported to be a good one also...it gave ~2700 at 50KCUP for th same 25.3gr/100% load...any of these loads would take care of a deer right quick...that's not too far behind a 250 Savage with the same weight bullet.

I use Federal match primers for most all my varmiting reloads nowdays, they seem to give the best accuracy...sometimes CCI BR...R91/2 and WLR sometimes...it all depends on how the load works out...lots of variation in the accuracy of primers...FED mag primers in the really big cases and calibers.

Another thing about magnum primers is they can increase pressures over a standard primer.

You'll get there, I have no doubt.

Luck

[quickdtoo]

Is that COL for your rifle with that bullet touching the lands...or what? 

As I stated, that's in my rifle, my COL of 2.390" is .0022" off the lands, into the lands at 2.412" with the 90gr NBT.

I've done a bunch of research on the 6x45 for deer, it's real popular with the Contender pistol boys as well as the AR crowd, there are numerous accounts of many deer taken with them 200yds and under with decent shot placement using the 80gr Speer and 85gr NP, as well as the 90gr NBT, but I already shot a batch of the 85gr NPs and they were all over the place, so it apparently doesn't like that bullet, not with BL-C2 anyway. Nosler lists the effective velocity for reliable expansion of their bullets stickied on their forum, so if I can get an accurate load that falls in their parameters at the range I intend to take a doe, I'll sure use it, I'm getting the velocity, it's just a matter of getting them to fire reliably, and I think the Rem 7½ will get me there. 

Tim

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1347

Partition:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A

Ballistic Tip:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1600 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 3000 fps

AccuBond:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A

[petemi]

Tim, I and we are delighted you're enjoying playing with the 6.  And do hope you get to smack a doe with it this Fall.  It was meant to be an acknowledgement for a very special person....which you are. Good Luck, Buddy.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Pete, I'd just like to make some meat with it, it's just a lot more likely to be a deer than a yote!! 

Tim

[moorepower]

The Hodgon site has H322 max load of 23.5 with an 80 grain bullet and 22.5 with the 90 grain bullet. My 6mm br shoots the 80 grain at 3150 and that is the heaviest the 1/12 will shoot. All that I have read seems to lead to a flat base 80 grain being about the longest heaviest bullet practical for deer. H4895 is also a grate powder for the 6X45.

[quickdtoo]

My 6x45 Handi has a 1:10" twist rebore done by Wayne York, so 90gr bullets aren't a problem.    H322 and H335 are a bit faster than H4895 which are better suited for close to 100% burn in the 20" barrel according to QL3.6. Hodgdon data uses a shorter COL, been there, done that, but thanks. 


Tim

[wtroger]

You will love RL-17 it has become one of my go to powders it's burn rate is close to 4350 but will produce better velocities at less pressure. I am running it a 358 WSM in a bolt gun and in a 7mm X 57 Mauser with great results.

[quickdtoo]

Whilst waiting for the mag primers for the 4320 and A2520 loads, I'm gonna run some RL17 under a batch of Hornady 129gr SSTs that I bought for the 6.5x55, I ran it thru QL and got a good load planned which is right in the middle of Alliant's data for the 120gr and 140gr, 42.2gr should get me about 2800fps in the 20" barrel if the prediction is close, but I'll be happy with 2700!! 

Tim

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/reloder17data.doc

[Fred M]

Tim,
In my 6x47 I use two powders H322  and H4198 with 55gr bt bullets and Rem 91/2primers . I don't have a deer load.

Don't know why you want to use a 6mm for deer? I gave up on on 6mm for deer a long time ago. Unless you can shoot a deer in the ear with a 6mm forget about it.

I know every body will be screaming about that.

If you follow my firing pin and hammer treatment in my web site your FTF will go away.
Fred                                                             

[quickdtoo]

Already did the firing pin tricks Fred, only thing left is Rem primers and they'll be here in about a week. 

thx,

Tim

[Fred M]

Eh Tim I was looking for my fireing pin write up, alas I could not find it. Do you know where it is.

[Spanky]

Tim,
Don't know why you want to use a 6mm for deer?
Fred                                                             

Because it works well for deer.



Spanky

[quickdtoo]

Eh Tim I was looking for my fireing pin write up, alas I could not find it. Do you know where it is.

Some of the links on your website wouldn't open at the time, so I just did a search here to find your firing pin improvements, you've mentioned them several times, thankfully. 

Tim

[Fred M]

Well Tim my search did not find anything. Can you copy it for me?
I never have much luck with a search.
Thanks Fred

[quickdtoo]

Here ya go Fred. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,123365.msg1098439481.html#msg1098439481

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,110787.msg1098336434.html#msg1098336434

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,126950.msg1098462362.html#msg1098462362