Author Topic: 44 mag ?  (Read 1950 times)

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Offline av-doctor

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44 mag ?
« on: July 25, 2010, 11:50:00 AM »
i want to use 240gr xtp. How fast are you guys loading them to? i can't find any data for rifles.

i'm currently loading a 240gr JHP over 2400 with CCI mag and mixed headstamp cases they shoot great at 50yds 5 shots touching ,but at 100yds groups open up to 6 to 8 inches.before you comment i know the problem the load it a light plinker for my son almost a full gr. under min in my speer manual.so i'm not concerned about that

all info i can find for the xtp is loads for pistol,i'm just trying to figure out how fast to push the out of a rifle.

this will be a hunting load used in 2 different rifles a H&R sb1 44mag and a Marlin 1894.

any load info will be strongly researched before use i'm basically looking for speed used by people here.

Offline Lefty Dude

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 12:14:38 PM »
Rifle velocitys will run approx. 200-300 fps faster than a revolver load of the same.

Your loads my vary a bit from mine.

Use a published powder Mfg.s load data. Hodgdon, Alliant, & etc. & develop a custom load for your 44/Handi.

Offline moorepower

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 12:17:49 PM »
The Hornady reloading manual has rifle data in it.

Offline gomerdog

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 12:21:18 PM »
I think Alliant recommends using a standard primer with 2400, rather than a magnum primer.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 12:28:56 PM »
Hodgdon rifle data is online as well, the Hornady 6th lists 17.3gr start for 2400 @1400fps, 21.5gr max @1700fps in their 18" Ruger carbine barrel in their 44mag rifle loads, COL 1.6", WLP primer , Hornady brass.

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp



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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 02:24:05 PM »
lefty- i thought it would run higher than 200-300fps more

gomer- i checked out the primer info and most loads do call for a standard primer not the magnum as my very outdated manual does. time for a new manual now i guess.

quick- does the hornady manual list the xtp for a rifle, if so maybe thats the one i should get.

i read somewhere the xtp will expand properly between 900 and 1800fps at impact anyone heard this?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 02:40:02 PM »
quick- does the hornady manual list the xtp for a rifle, if so maybe thats the one i should get.

i read somewhere the xtp will expand properly between 900 and 1800fps at impact anyone heard this?

Yes, the Hornady data is for the 240gr XTP #44200 in a rifle, although I failed to mention the bullet!!  ::) They got 1800fps with W296/H110, FWIW.

Tim
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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 12:04:02 PM »
thanks  Tim, i'll try to pick up a Hornady manual

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 02:43:53 PM »
24.0 gr of H-110 under the 240gr XTP has been my standard load for the 44 Mag for close to 20 years.  Made a lotta meat with that one and a 44 mag rifle.  That one needs a Mag. primer to light er up.  DP
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 03:01:00 PM »
Neither Hornady or Hodgdon 44mag rifle data call for a magnum pistol primer for the H110/240gr loads, Hornady uses WLP, Hodgdon uses Rem 2½, of course, neither Win or Rem make a large mag pistol primer either.  ;) One note in the Hornady rifle data, they state the 265gr FP and 300gr HP-XTP are the best choices for deer or bear at short ranges and the 200gr JHP and 240gr HP are better suited for smaller game.

Hornady does make a 240gr XTP-Mag also, but I don't think it was available when the 6th addition was in production, it may be in their 7th edition tho, Hodgdon lists it from 2000-2250fps in the 460S&W pistol. Nevermind that thought, it's a .452" bullet.    ::) :-[
Tim
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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 01:52:30 PM »
i picked up a 7th edition it does not list the 240 xtp mag either i have heard of them but found no listing.are they available and whats the difference? a heavier jacket?

240 too light for deer? i thought it would be fine. lol
i shoot a 150 in 30-30 and seems to work just fine.

DP- have you run those over a chrony? i'm guessing by data should be about 1750fps

i was using a Speer manual from the mid 80's that listed a mag primer,Hornady 7th uses WLP with Hornady/Frontier cases, Does the case have that much effect? i currently only have a few hundred cases all mixed.I load alot of 9mm,38spc,357mag and never noticed a real difference with straight wall cases.now with necked cases i do try to sort those esp 223/5.56.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 02:27:52 PM »
I'm guessing that Hornady considers the 240gr too light due to the velocity increase in the rifle over that of a pistol and fear over expansion, but DP would know more about that since he actually uses them.  ;D My only 44mag experience in my Handi is with the 225gr Leverevolution ammo which runs a little over 1750fps, only shot paper with it. As for changing components, just use start data and work up, I've noticed considerable differences in brass concerning capacity, Win brass tends to hold less than Rem brass and Nosler brass even less, what little Hornady brass I've used is thinner than Starline, but that's the only comparison I can make there. I wouldn't recommend switching to a mag primer with an existing load you've been using, but working a load up from start using mag primers instead of what's recommended shouldn't hurt unless you have problems getting them to fire which is a known issue with rifle primers, dunno about pistol primers.

Tim

Duh, I just realized the 240gr XTP-Mag is a .452" bullet!! 
::) :-[
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 06:51:59 PM »
Well, I just wrote a small book to answer this and the storm bumped me off line I guess.  Anyway, I have taken 20-25 deer with the load I listed and have never recovered a bullet or lost an animal.  I have not run them over a chrony, but plan on doing so sometime.  I would guess that av-doctor is close in his estimate of velocity and at that speed it works well, lots of damage and pass thru's.  It IS to soft at 444 Marlin speeds.  The only time it didn't drop the animal with in a few yards or right there was not the fault of the bullet, but a broken butt-stock, sending the bullet low-left.  I did recover the deer, but not till the next morning and several hundred yards of tracking.  I was sick over it, wasn't gonna give up.  I will continue to use it on deer and it has been accurate in everything I shot it in, pistol or rifle.  DP
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline moorepower

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 07:28:16 PM »
I know the 300 grain is a thumper in a muzzle loader, though I have not loaded them in a rifle. It also shoots well in my 4" 629 S&W, although it really is better for my wrist to shoot the 240's.

Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 10:02:16 AM »
tim- i wasn't planning to switch to mag primers, i was using them already, my speer manual said to use mag primer with 2400. Hornady 7th does not.
dp- i've done that many times here i type what i'm thinking and its always a small book after reading i end up deleting half to make it readable. a few yeas ago i had my nephew with me his third year hunting without taking a shot so i told him opening morning i'd let him take first shot. we set up at the bottom of a natural funnel that opens into a field the deer have to stop to crawl under a fence. so i said to him wait till they come under the fence they'll group back up before they take off,i see deer coming i says pick one out wait for a shot take it when your ready a doe comes up to the fence with a small buck right behind her she crawls under and the buck is down crawling and boom doe drops on the spot buck jumps turns and tries to hurry under the fence i rushed a shot and hit low and back the deer runs off we tracked for 2hrs finding a few drops of dark red blood and some chunks of bloody corn then we lost the trail. my brother came along behind us and picked it up where we lost it he trailed for another 2to3hrs before finding a gut pile so i had to convince myself someone else shot it and at the very least it didn't go to waste.
moorepower- my brother uses them in his muzzleloaders he has used 240's and 300's he says both worked great except one small doe he hit shoulder and lost the one he hit and most of the other due to damage.not sure on speed though.

Offline Handi-Fan

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2010, 02:32:59 PM »
 I could never get what I needed out 240's. I shoot 270gr. Speer Golddots with 21.4gr. of H110 and WLP primers it hammers deer. Took 4 with it last season. ;D I don't know what kind of velocity you will get from a 22" barrel if it has a 1:38 twist, my gun has 1:20 and a 24" tube on it. They run avg. 1795fps in it. ;D

Offline cult .44

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 05:15:47 PM »
Small data point: Last year I killed a deer at about 40 yards with the 240 gr XTP, loaded with 21.5 gr 2400 and shot out of my 20" Marlin. Based on the manual I guesstimate velocity to be about 1700 fps. The deer when down dead on the spot and the bullet passed through but ... it was a neck shot.

As of now I plan to use the same gun and load this season. However, I have been considering using my .45-70 Handi. I've been tinkering with a Hornady 300 gr JHP load that I'm starting to like, pushed to about 1750 fps with IMR 3031.
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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 11:24:57 AM »
i've decided to start with 19.5gr of 2400 with cci mag primers (i already have cases sized and primed) i'll post results and maybe pics if i can figure that out.

Thanks for the help guys

Offline petemi

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »
Well, I just wrote a small book to answer this and the storm bumped me off line I guess.  Anyway, I have taken 20-25 deer with the load I listed and have never recovered a bullet or lost an animal.  I have not run them over a chrony, but plan on doing so sometime.  I would guess that av-doctor is close in his estimate of velocity and at that speed it works well, lots of damage and pass thru's.  It IS to soft at 444 Marlin speeds.  The only time it didn't drop the animal with in a few yards or right there was not the fault of the bullet, but a broken butt-stock, sending the bullet low-left.  I did recover the deer, but not till the next morning and several hundred yards of tracking.  I was sick over it, wasn't gonna give up.  I will continue to use it on deer and it has been accurate in everything I shot it in, pistol or rifle.  DP

DP, I've been sick there too.  Not in very many years.  I did blow a shot a long time ago on a nice buck in a gale of a snow storm.  Should have never taken the shot.  Short story is I found him the next morning, snow covered and after the wolves and coyotes found him.

Pete
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Offline cult .44

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 05:34:14 PM »
Quote
19.5gr of 2400 with cci mag primers

I initially built my load up with Federal mag primers (all I had at the time). But I got better results accuracy-wise when I switched to WLPs. Mileage varies of course.
"Our knowledge increases each year. Yet what we know is as trivial as a whisper in a vast desert."
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Offline Handi-Fan

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 03:24:58 PM »
Cult.44 when your're working with that 45-70 you might want to try some imr-4198 or H4198. I get some real nice groups from mine with it. That hornady 300 hp is awesome on whitetails but you might want to stay away from a shoulder shot with it you might come home with 2/3's of a deer. They are ruff on em. With a neck shot they don't expand and there's little damaged meat. Been there done that. ;D

Offline yukondog

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 04:01:27 PM »
Havent taken anything with thw xtp but I have with speer 240 gr. gold dot soft point useing 20.4 gr. of 2400 and win. large pistol primer at 1625 fps [over chrony], taken 3 deer all pass through all one shot. Good luck.
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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2010, 12:46:50 PM »
i got some loaded up at 19.5gr i'm going to try to slip out in the morning to try them out.

Offline cult .44

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 05:02:33 PM »
Quote
with that 45-70 you might want to try some imr-4198

That's next on my list. I'm still a newby loading the .45-70. I started with Reloader 7 but I like the way 3031 fills the case behind the stubby 300 grainers while still being able to maintain moderate velocities. Loads with Re 7 seem to like being pumped up, but 2100 fps seems a bit on the overkill side for whitetail.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 05:12:28 PM »
Quote
with that 45-70 you might want to try some imr-4198

That's next on my list. I'm still a newby loading the .45-70. I started with Reloader 7 but I like the way 3031 fills the case behind the stubby 300 grainers while still being able to maintain moderate velocities. Loads with Re 7 seem to like being pumped up, but 2100 fps seems a bit on the overkill side for whitetail.

Hmm, I have downloaded with RL7 to 34.3 gr. with no misfires or issues.  I have a handful here of FTX rounds with that load that when testing still grouped well, albeit about 4" lower at 100 yards.  I load them for my wife because she doesn't do well with recoil and likes to shoot occasionally.  Don't get me wrong, I've gone up to 52 gr of RL7 and still got great accuracy and blew a hole through the 10x10 100 yard gong at my range.  My deer load is 46.3 gr. RL7 and it shoots clean and kicks much less than the full power loads.  I haven't had a chance to try 3031, so it may be just as good, just figured I'd let you know.  ;)  I like RL7 also, because the Alliant powders are several dollars less per pound around here anyway.
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

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Offline cult .44

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2010, 01:04:41 PM »
Quote
I have downloaded with RL7

<Begin backpedaling and tap dancing>
I don't mean to dis the moderate load potential of RL7. When I first got my .45-70 Handi I was enthused about its power potential and RL7 seemed like a good powder for that (which it is). In the power ranges I was focusing on with the 300 grainer, 1850 to 2050 fps, my experience was that the stronger charges were more accurate. When I decided to work up a less powerful deer hunting load, IMR3031 seem like a good choice because it's bulkier and a little slower, and I just wanted to try out a different powder. Other than a few step-up loads I really didn't try to download with RL7.
</End backpedaling and tap dancing>
"Our knowledge increases each year. Yet what we know is as trivial as a whisper in a vast desert."
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2010, 02:15:36 PM »
Lol, wasn't worried if you didn't like it.  Just wanted to let you know my experience. ;)  Dance on good fellow, dance on... ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

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Offline av-doctor

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2010, 08:42:14 PM »
Range report  19.5gr did not fare too well best i could muster was about 3 1/2 at 50yds

Offline cult .44

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Re: 44 mag ?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2010, 06:22:22 PM »
Are you going to up the charge a bit? I suspect that would help.
"Our knowledge increases each year. Yet what we know is as trivial as a whisper in a vast desert."
     - Robert A. Pinker, "Understanding Firearm Ballistics"