Author Topic: too many guns? (Read 5600 times)

don heath · « **on:** June 30, 2010, 04:36:27 AM »

I am stiring the pot but....I own too many guns…I know it, but it is my hobby, a major part of my job.

However, I train with only 4 out of my 47 firearms on a regular basis (more than 3 times a week)…Ok, several are virtual duplicates of the ones I train with but still…Having travelled and hunted in many countries I am constantly struck by just how many firearms most Americans own and how inefficient one quickly becomes with a firearm one doesn’t train with. I contend it is impossible to remain proficient with more than half a dozen different guns- and to a large extent this is hammered home by the ‘average’ shooting ability of hunters and sport shooters who come from countries where the number of firearms one may posses is very restricted. It is also reflected in the quality of firearms that folk own. In most parts of Africa you are limited to 4 or 5 firearms- to get more you have some major hoops to jump through. In parts of Europe folk are restricted to 6…

There is a very good saying…beware the man with one gun- he is likely to know how to use it. My father is an excellent example of this. He bought a brand new Mauser (8x57) in 1939 and used it for his entire hunting career. He bought a bigger rifle in 1956/57 when he was culling crocodiles but other than that he stuck to his 8mm. Throughout our bush war he never bothered to try and get a semi auto carbine- he carried his 8mm and a few stripper clips of ammo, and a nice 7,65 Luger he collected as a trophy in North Africa. There are a fair number of dead gooks who made the mistake of attacking us or ambushing dad…but at 87 he well.

His best record as a hunter was 17 bull elephants in a couple of minutes in our orchard. Used 18 rounds….and as anybody who has ever hunted elephants will tell you, they start running the moment the first one gets shot, there is no time to muck about- It certainly upset several parks officials and made my life a little awkward for a while (I was a parks officer and dad punched out the local provincial warden for trying to illegally arrest him for using an under calibre rifle to shoot elephants…Dad was in the right but the officer nursing a battered head as well as a bruised ego was the senior officer in my province)

So many folk who are part time hunters or target shooters, particularly in America, seem to own more guns than they can a) reasonably use and b) ever become even half way proficient with. As I know, A practiced man with a ruger No 1 single shot will maintain a far higher rate of fire than most men with a bolt action rifle…I know I can hit a target at 300m more often in 10 seconds with my main bolt action rifle than most men will with a semi auto…(not from a bench or shooting rest anyway)….

How many have guns that are great toys….but never get used in training? Real training that is?

Eg, I shoot IPSC revolver class using a S&W 629 converted to full moon clips..On a daily basis I carry a 329- same sights and trigger pull at least. On a daily basis I carry a Mauser 9,3…and shoot everything from elephant to guineafowl with it – I wear out a barrel a year….

Justin10mm · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2010, 06:39:39 AM »

There are two schools of thought on guns, as tools, and as toys.

Americans do like their toys.

But I agree that as a tool, less is more.

In my case, the pretty walnut stays in the safe most of the time, while the beat up Remington 270 win. gets carried for general use on predators/varmints. And as it turns out that is the gun I shoot the best of the 20 odd that I have.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2010, 11:42:26 AM »

Shooters and collectors are sometimes the same but not always. I bird hunt with several guns depending on birds hunted . And all get range time on the skeet field . When taking personal protection classes i used an 870 which I seldom hunt birds with but do hunt deer with . The instructor said after my first run on the range i missed alot because i shot to fast . The targets are humanoid with clothes on . After scoreing good hits on all targets he said it looked like i wasn't using the sights , I didn't but i never do bird hunting . My point is if you shoot several shotguns on a regular basis you would be able to adjust quickly.
When shooting handguns in IDPA i switched around alot because I liked to try different guns and to be honest when you shoot alot again you can adjust . you know sight alingment and trigger control. You may enjoy a certian gun but you can adapt . I feel the same is true with a rifle. In all cases you must be able to call your shot and be confident in yourself to adjust where you are shooting if your shot misses . If the gun has a scope and its adjusted then its even easier to get away with it .
I believe trigger time is more important that trigger time with one gun . That said You are always better off with a gun you know inside and out , one you know for a fact will hit where you aim . I dare say your dad would have been able to work with any gun if need be . He sounds like a great shot .

It would be good to add that target shooters and game shots differ also. I can hit clay birds at 300 yards way more than i miss with a M1-a but getting tiny groups with my 300 win mag seems harder go figure but then hitting deer with it no problem.
Another experince I had was I had never shot a Browning HP until 4-5 years ago , always had 1911. Shot the 1911 well enough. well a friend and I were shooting 6 inch plates at 25 yards . He hands me his HP and says try it I cleared all 6 , he rest them ad cleared 6 more . This was first time on a HP. I now have a HP.

Bottom line if you can shoot you can shoot most anything and yes it takes pratice . But if you don't pratice well don't expect much .
Now if your live depends on it ya better know how to run the weapon yopu tote not just shoot it and I believe that's what you were getting at

don heath · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2010, 07:57:49 PM »

What got me onto this was I was invited to a 'retro' service rifle shoot- dug out my Target HB FAL and joined in...I was less than happy with my performance. I Used to be able to do things with an FN FAL that astonished people, now I was good but not awsome. I went down to the Skiet range with it and had a go. Instead of the usual 40 or so I got 7 clays.

Then last we end we had a friendly 3 gun match- I haven't shot three gun since 2004, but dug out the tricked out AR15, race gun and Sagia, and entered 'standard gun' division as well with my revolver, bolt action 9,3 and old Mossberg 500. I won standard divsion comfortably despite shooting a heavy cal bolt action rifle against semi auto's and a revolver against auto pistols. I put in a relatively dismal showing in open class.

I am a shooter...put anything in my hands from 4 bore down and I'll be pretty good...but the edge, the difference between sucess and failure in competition and between life and death in war or our bush...that edge is a perishable skill...

teamnelson · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2010, 11:53:56 PM »

it's appropriate on a survival discussion to remind us all we can only reasonably carry a couple guns, and we would probably be best served buying ammo to train on them rather than building a larger arsenal. We buy guns like golf clubs, need a special one for every niche. But the old guy with 3 clubs may not set the course record, but he's normally among the best because he's mastered his 3 clubs.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2010, 03:27:39 AM »

Quote from: don heath on July 01, 2010, 07:57:49 PM

What got me onto this was I was invited to a 'retro' service rifle shoot- dug out my Target HB FAL and joined in...I was less than happy with my performance. I Used to be able to do things with an FN FAL that astonished people, now I was good but not awsome. I went down to the Skiet range with it and had a go. Instead of the usual 40 or so I got 7 clays.

Then last we end we had a friendly 3 gun match- I haven't shot three gun since 2004, but dug out the tricked out AR15, race gun and Sagia, and entered 'standard gun' division as well with my revolver, bolt action 9,3 and old Mossberg 500. I won standard divsion comfortably despite shooting a heavy cal bolt action rifle against semi auto's and a revolver against auto pistols. I put in a relatively dismal showing in open class.

I am a shooter...put anything in my hands from 4 bore down and I'll be pretty good...but the edge, the difference between sucess and failure in competition and between life and death in war or our bush...that edge is a perishable skill...

Understand where you come from but target shooting and competition has rules survival does not , like they say the shoot out in the street at high noon was a myth. most got shot in the back . I have some medical issues i didn't have a few years ago so in most cases i would opt for the 870 in a pinch .

Victor3 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2010, 12:27:22 AM »

I have a bunch, but only these favorites are used ~90% of the time anymore...

Ruger MK II
S&W 640
1911
CZ 75
Rem 870 (with various barrels)
Schmidt-Rubin K31
Mauser K98k
M1 Carbine
Win 62A
BRNO Mod 4
CZ 452 American

I do very well with all of the above; not nearly as good with many of the others.

My Dad had tons of guns. When we went out though, the same few were what he brought every time, with the occasional odd one he wanted to play with.

The ones always with us were...

High Standard "Double 9" (22 revolver)
1911
H&R Topper 12 ga
Mauser K98k
Win 62A
Mossberg bolt action 22

I once asked him why he didn't use more of his others. His response was...

"Why? Aren't these enough?"

They were; both of us could hunt and target shoot just dandy without anything else.

WD45 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2010, 06:54:47 AM »

I don't think there is such a thing as to many guns

The older I get the more that shotgun appeals to me and my aging eyes

Any one think about the old shotgun / rifle double guns ? Something in say 30-30 / 20 ga or 243 / 20 ga. Not what I would want to be in a heavy fire fight with but for the meat pot it would be quit handy. Thinking about the survival situation with no access to either an eye doctor or a place to make me a new pair of eyes I would have a hard time hitting anything small with anything but a shotgun. I love my rifles but without specs they make a better club for me. Come on now, I cant be the only one this would be a problem for. Heck, some of us wouldn't even be able to make it to the store without glasses or contacts.

Arier Blut · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2010, 02:28:14 PM »

Too many guns could be a good thing in a stationary survival situation. It is pretty easy to rig a trip wire to a trigger to guard for you. I would much prefer to have a good ol' coach gun give both barrels than try to protect yourself 24/7.

On the practice issue. I don't really know, kind of mixed. With sub moa rifles pretty common today I imagine most could do well against a man sized target, even without much practice. No doubt a fellow with a military style semi rifle would be more proficient with reloads and jams if he knew his gun well and stayed practiced with it. Yet I guess it would boil down to his ability. I have seen a lot of guys at the range shoot very often and be sorryshots. I have also hunted with several old timers that shot one time a year for deer hunting and never missed.

Lately due to ammo costs I have swapped to 22 lr conversions in what I am able to and even bought rimfire guns that are very similar to their centerfire counterparts. I shoot a lot. And thankfully doing it this way lessens the ammo bill.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2010, 02:43:42 AM »

With all the new reflex , red dot etc. sights on guns these days people sometimes forget to pratice with or install iron sights on guns . This could be a big mistake long term.

WD45 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2010, 06:13:44 AM »

Practice before the survival situation would be a good thing. No one would go to a competition and practice in the competition. I would not want to go into a survival situation where the competition is for my life and not be proficient with the weapons I have especially when ammo is limited and there is none to waste on practice

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2010, 06:33:11 AM »

a couple of thoughts from me....
first off, it sounds like i would have liked your dad.
second, i wouldnt bet my life that a guy with alot of guns doesnt know how to use them. that is just a dangerous assumption that is very likely to cost you big time.

teamnelson · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2010, 01:57:46 PM »

Got this in the PatriotPost today.

myronman3 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2010, 06:11:00 PM »

that is awesome.

don heath · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2010, 08:28:23 PM »

I suppose it also depends on ones definition of ’good enough’ with ones chosen firearm.

There is an old saying- Amateurs train until they get it right, Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong.

When we were warming up for the elephant or buffalo culls each one of us would shoot 1000 rounds or so per day at moving targets- usually half bricks lobbed up with a trap machine or a target stuck inside an old tire and rolled own a hill side. Once we were up to 80% on that we taped over or removed the sights and practiced instinctive shooting. – in short, we trained until we couldn’t get it wrong (but occasionally did for real anyway). All that practice stood us in very good stead when you look at the casualty ratio between parks officers and dissidents/poachers during the civil war and rhino poaching war that followed. We often had only bolt action rifles- the bad guys AK 47’s and RPD light machineguns. We had two wounded for 1100+ killed. And the bad guys initiated the ambush roughly half the time.

Too many people also ‘plink’ rather than train. I don’t think you need to be a ‘top competitor’ to be ‘proficient’ with a firearm, but I do think some shooting skills- particularly snap shooting and hitting moving targets are very perishable skills and there is a need to train against the clock and compete against others- even if it only your buddy from next door.

At the ‘retro’ service rifle shoot, I saw many an ex SAS man not feature too well- a decade back they were hell on wheels with an F.N….now? they should invest in a good shotgun for social work at close range in the dark!

Victor3 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2010, 03:09:20 AM »

Quote from: don heath on July 06, 2010, 08:28:23 PM

Too many people also ‘plink’ rather than train. I don’t think you need to be a ‘top competitor’ to be ‘proficient’ with a firearm, but I do think some shooting skills- particularly snap shooting and hitting moving targets are very perishable skills and there is a need to train against the clock and compete against others- even if it only your buddy from next door.

I didn't think of it as 'training' back then but most times when we went out (nearly every weekend until I was ~15) Dad and I would compete in various informal shooting games together. This often involved the Win 62A.

One of my favorites was at a canyon with thin shale slabs laying around. We'd load up the rifle with 10 shells per turn and one of us would shoot while the other stood to the side and tossed average sized pieces of shale up so that the flat face provided a target. One shot per throw. The one who hit the most by whenever we decided to end the game would get a treat; usually a small jar of shrimp cocktail. It always tasted better when I could gloat about winning it, saying "Mmmmmm.... (waving a spoonful in front of his face)."

"You cheated, punk. Wait 'till next time."

Truth be told, we both 'cheated' by tossing smaller slabs or throwing them sideways when the other was ahead in points.

Doubt I could hit one out of ten if I tried today.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2010, 03:21:37 AM »

When you shoot with others its helpful to put a wager on the out come even ifs its who buys the soft drinks after shooting . When there is even a small amount of pressure involved you try a bit harder.

cbl51 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2010, 03:58:56 AM »

I do think it is possable to have too many guns.

I gave up hunting many years ago, but my better ahlf and I have been lifelong target shooters. Several years ago we had a huge downsizing of our stuff. After almost 40 years of marrage we had accumulated a mountain of 'stuff'. Clothes, tools, and guns. We each kept just a couple of our old favorties, and either sold off, gave to the kids and grandkid, the rest. Now we have a nice uncluttered house that we can actually find things in, and less guns to worry about when we are off on a trip.

Now we enjoy shooting once a week, sometimes twice in nic e weather, and we are actually shooting better now than before, in spite of eye's in thier 60's. Plus if anything happens now that we have to move or evacuate, we don't have 58 guns to worry about transporting. A couple of rifles and handguns and that's it.

It's very liberating to get rid of stuff.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2010, 09:35:45 AM »

I think I am ready to try the down sizing , it would be nice to find things the wife hides

teamnelson · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2010, 04:06:12 PM »

I'm starting early with the downsizing. For various reasons my firearms collection went from zero to alot in the space of a year (I had to sell my previous hoard off when I thought I was going to be in Africa for life.) Then I was deploying a lot, and now there's a lull, I am "right sizing" the hoard to items of greater quality and utility, also streamlining calibers so I can streamline reloading & casting. When we packed up for the tsunami threat awhile back, I was staring at the armory full of things that didn't make the cut and shaking my head. Its liberating to be able to travel light, but confident ... downsizing means I practice more with the same guns.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2010, 01:38:26 PM »

I own what some would say is tooo many. Its a few and most are what i collect, mosin nagants, If I had to have a do all rifle it would be a MN for big stuff/defense and a .22 for foraging. Along with my g-23 I would never feel undergunned. I know MN's well, and can maintain them as well with a good parts stores I have set up. I am not worried about running out of ammunition. I don't laugh or criticize another mans choice, use what you have, learn it well, and shoot it well, and practice alot, and I would not want to be downrange of you. Don't know that I would have the chance to give 17 elephant a try ( I sure would of liked to have seen that!),but I would use one of my MN for anything in North America.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2010, 03:19:19 PM »

Guns are like Golf clubs.
There is the perfect club for each and every stroke/Shot.
can you play 9, 18, 27, or 36 holes in a day with out a full set of clubs?
Yep you can probably play with 3 - Driver, 7 Iron, and Putter. May take you longerto play and your score my suffer. but you can do it.
Can you survive with only three or less guns? sure!
Our fore fathers tamed the west and survived with single guns. They were able to hunt and defend themselves with single shot rilfes.
repeaters were a bonus and having a shotgun doubled your potential to gather food and defend your self.
Would it be tough for me to leave most if I had to bug out on foot. Yep could I think to grab a few and leave, yep!

tacklebury · « **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:07:57 PM »

Personally, I have a small collection and I can load for all my guns using 3 sets of dies and I have classic loaders for all 3 also. The only exception are the .22's and I have a rather significant stash of those for the various firearms which chamber rimfires. I don't do anything with wildcats, which require more exotic components in many cases. I intend by next year to also have a back-up set of dies for each of the 3 and a stash of the 3 powders I use to reload them all. Also, primers and lead will be stocked as well as some finished bullets for them. All are pretty common sizes and I will have a few molds available for various tasks.

no guns here · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2010, 09:54:09 AM »

Must be pretty cool to get a government to buy you 1000 rounds per day for days on end! Seems like you would need new barrels pretty soon at that rate. Never seen anyone that could shoot that much for free except SF guys.

No such thing as too many guns... I like them, so I buy them. Some don't get shot too much but then again, I only bought it cause I thought it was cool, or I inherited it, or I bought it for my kid to use someday. I really only USE a couple of them. The others are just to HAVE.

In Germany, the testing for a hunting license includes shooting tests. The test proctors liked to test Americans. They got to leave early those days. They said it was very uncommon for Americans to fail the test but fairly common for Germans. Turns out, most of us were already hunters, shooters and military folks. Most of the Germans had only ever shot in their course while practicing. We may not be as good as the average African but we can hold our own if we needed. I would venture to say that the average, dedicated American hunter is better than the average person.

NGH

gypsyman · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2010, 10:27:50 PM »

No Guns Here, I was thinking the same thing. 1000 rds a day, Don must have a callous on his shoulder a couple inch's thick. I got jumpy when a friend of mine had a Rem. 2400 in 30.06 and had a couple hundred rds. of old mil surplus ammo to burn up. After about 50 rds. I was flinching pretty good.
Can you have too many guns,no. Can you be proficient with all of them, no. If I had to be limited to just a couple guns, my 1911, my AK, and the 870. If your situation calls for you to move frequently, I can see having just several guns. But, if your settled in to a location that looks like home for a decade or so, why not expand. You won't be any less proficient with your main firearms, and have fun with the extra's. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2010, 03:14:05 AM »

I really don't know why so many feel if you shoot more than one gun you can't be good . The basic skill is the same align the sights and squeeze the trigger at the correct time. I hunt and shoot clays with Auto , pump and O/U's . I hunt deer with lever action , bolt guns and auto loaders. Hand guns i shoot just about every action. I don't feel intimidated with any of them . If I were a soilder i would want to be comfortable in the use of as many of the small arms i might see on the battle field as i could from both sides.

myronman3 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2010, 04:21:27 AM »

i can certainly agree with that 100%. i think it is something that people with one gun say to make themselves feel better.

don heath · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2010, 04:29:15 AM »

I'll add that at times we fired 2000 a day..and before the world IPSC shoots the US top 10 or so contenders fire 2000 a day as warm up for the week before the actual match...As Rob Letham said at the 1999 world champs...His job was making once fired cases...

It is esay to be competant with many firearms but to be really good you have to know the guns..eg AK 47 has an 'all creep' trigger of about 4lbs. The F.N. a double take up and crisp 7lbs let off. If you are used to a crisp pistol trigger like on my STI (or just about any other colt) and then pick up a CZ 75 with it's squishty take up and massive over travel...

The other point about a limited no of guns is stocking ammo. Every month for the last 25 years or so I have bought. 20 rnds of .308 match, 10rnds of Rottweill SPSG and 50 rnds of .22LR above what I have used in the month...as you can appreciate, I have a goodly stash and have not broken the bank doing so...for most of that time I was on a government pay cheque...these days I add 40 rnds of 77grn 5,56 Nato for the wife and daughters rifles. My 9,3 and pistol competition ammo...well that gets used not stocked!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2010, 06:02:54 AM »

At one time Todd Jarett shot at one of the IDPA matches I was a SO . He is a very nice guy and stayed and talked shooting . He said several of us could compete on his level if we shot 50000 rounds a year like he and the top guys did . He said it was all pratice .

superjay01 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 26, 2010, 10:08:48 AM »

I can believe that. I shoot in a local pistol league and we are lucky if we shoot 1000 rounds a season. I know that some of the guys and gals that shoot for $$$ shoot that much in a single practice session. Aaahhh if I only had the time and money to do that.