The 44's at the shop.

[Spanky]

I just dropped off my 44mag at the smithy. It's getting chopped to 18" and recrowned and the front site put back on. When I get it back I'm thinkin' of getting a mannlicher forend for it.
I'm pretty tempted to have it rechambered to 444 while it's at the smithy.
What do you guys think about the 444 in an 18" barrel? Any ideas good or bad let me know.



Spanky

[gendoc]

this is what a chopped 18" 44 looks like with the site replaced.....


i myself, wud'nt go 444 with this fun shooter. i like it too much !!!

[geezer56]

An 18 in. barrel in a 444 wouldn't bother me, got a 45-70 with one.  The slow twist in a 44 mag barrel would bother me though.  To drive heavier bullets that a 444 is designed for, the newer 444's have ( I believe) a 1 in 20 or 1 in 18 twist rate.  The 44 mag has a 1 in 28.  The 44 would be handy with a shorter barrel, but you may be better served by an original 444 barrel to chop for that project.  And if I am wrong about my twist rates, please remember that I'm an old guy operating off of my memory.

[gendoc]

well, i'm olt an wo-out too !!!    but my 44 will sling a 255gr wfnpb like this at 50yrds.

thats bout all i need to put down one dem hawgs unda neef me inna shoot'n house.
anathang bigger gets launched by my 45/70.

its all in what ya like,  we all differ'nt 

[GreenMachine79]

I'd stick with the .44 mag its very efficient.

[spikehorn]

You'll have to cut the manlicher down also they are about 21 1/2"

[Spanky]

Good points on the 444 guys.
I like the rifle as a 44 I was just curious about the 444... at 100 yds or less I don't think a deer would know the difference anyway.
Spikehorn... I was thinkin' about getting a mannlicher from GSI and having them cut it down to fit the 18" barrel... I think it would look pretty good with the long forearm.



Spanky

[Spanky]

Gendoc... thanks for the pic buddy. I was hoping someone had one cut down I could look at. That's a nice lookin' rifle with the camo lams.



Spanky

[quickdtoo]

An 18 in. barrel in a 444 wouldn't bother me, got a 45-70 with one.  The slow twist in a 44 mag barrel would bother me though.  To drive heavier bullets that a 444 is designed for, the newer 444's have ( I believe) a 1 in 20 or 1 in 18 twist rate.  The 44 mag has a 1 in 28.  The 44 would be handy with a shorter barrel, but you may be better served by an original 444 barrel to chop for that project.  And if I am wrong about my twist rates, please remember that I'm an old guy operating off of my memory.

H&R 44mags have a 1:38" twist, their current production 444 is 1:20" thanks to us, when it was reintroduced in 2007, their original plan was 1:38", but we got em to change it to 1:20".  The 444 Ultra Rifle had 1:38" twist barrels.

Tim

[gunther66]

Spanky,stick with the 44Mag.The 444 kicks the heck out of me! G66

[spikehorn]

Spikehorn... I was thinkin' about getting a mannlicher from GSI and having them cut it down to fit the 18" barrel... I think it would look pretty good with the long forearm.



Spanky
[/quote]

Spanky I think it would look cool with a manlicher

[bikerbeans]

short Handi's rock. I've got 2 shorties now and a bunch of new hacksaw blades in my gun room.  Some of my other "long" barrel Handis are getting nervous.   I think the 20 ga barrel that is showing up soon might get circumsized.

BB

[Tractorsaw1]

I have been thinking about the stinger thumbhole & varmint/target forend in tigerwood, I did some searching & got some info from 2004, but didn't come up with much other than Tim would rather buy his ready to go, anyone have any experience finishing these fine pieces from the site sponsor?  Oh yeah, back then it didn't come with the metal spacer on the forend either.

I also sent Booya a pm about them, looked like he had 3 of them finished in the Let's see some handi's thread, but haven't heard back from him yet.

[GreenMachine79]

An 18 in. barrel in a 444 wouldn't bother me, got a 45-70 with one.  The slow twist in a 44 mag barrel would bother me though.  To drive heavier bullets that a 444 is designed for, the newer 444's have ( I believe) a 1 in 20 or 1 in 18 twist rate.  The 44 mag has a 1 in 28.  The 44 would be handy with a shorter barrel, but you may be better served by an original 444 barrel to chop for that project.  And if I am wrong about my twist rates, please remember that I'm an old guy operating off of my memory.

H&R 44mags have a 1:38" twist, their current production 444 is 1:20" thanks to us, when it was reintroduced in 2007, their original plan was 1:38", but we got em to change it to 1:20".  The 444 Ultra Rifle had 1:38" twist barrels.

Tim

Tim,

You should try to get them to change the 44 mag to the same 1:20 twist, that way their wouldn't be a question about it firing the heavy bullets.  I don't believe in over stabilization, a 1:20 twist along with the slow velocity of the 44 isn't capable of spinning a bullet apart from centripetal force. 

[wreckhog]

Isn't twist proportional to velocity as well as bullet length. Push the same bullet faster and it can stabilize with a slower twist. That is why 22-250 barrels (which use the same projectiles as .223, generally have a slower twist. The .444 might work OK with the slower .44 barrel and large bullets.

[GreenMachine79]

wreckhog , yes that's correct.  I don't know if proportional is the correct word but they are correlated.  So assuming the same bullet the higher velocity 444 would stabilize better then the lower velocity 44 mag at the same 1:38 twist. 

[gcrank1]

With a short barrel like that the std. BC 'long' forstock would almost look like a Manlicher.

[Spanky]

Do you guys have a rough idea of the maximum length and weight bullet that will stabilize well with the 38 twist? I shoot 240gr. bullets out of the 44 now with decent accuracy (for an overbore 44) and like the idea of heavier bullets if they'll shoot well.



Spanky

[Spanky]

With a short barrel like that the std. BC 'long' forstock would almost look like a Manlicher.

That's an idea... do you know how long the BC forend is?
Thanks.


Spanky

[quickdtoo]

Tim,

You should try to get them to change the 44 mag to the same 1:20 twist, that way their wouldn't be a question about it firing the heavy bullets.  I don't believe in over stabilization, a 1:20 twist along with the slow velocity of the 44 isn't capable of spinning a bullet apart from centripetal force.  

Too late, my H&R contact quit Remington/Marlin/H&R and went to work for Colt last December, so we have no insider that will work with us any more.  

Do you guys have a rough idea of the maximum length and weight bullet that will stabilize well with the 38 twist? I shoot 240gr. bullets out of the 44 now with decent accuracy (for an overbore 44) and like the idea of heavier bullets if they'll shoot well.

Spanky

Here's some testing info on heavy bullet performance in 1:38" twist .444 Marlins. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

Tim

Both guns stabilized all bullet weights equally at the velocities represented in the accompanying data table.  In no case was there ever a bullet that failed to deliver acceptable to superb accuracy in both guns except for the 44-405g WLNGC.  Most times this accuracy level was achieved with differing powder charges and or powder selections, but none the less, no bullet performed to a less than acceptable level... for the exception of the .44-405g WLNGC bullet.  This particular bullet stabilized just fine at all tested velocities in the 444P "Outfitter" model with its 1:20" rifling twist; however, in the 444S model with it's 22" Micro-Groove 1:38" twist barrel failed to stabilize the 405g WLNGC bullet at all velocities that were developed within uniform safe operating pressures. At velocities under 1950 fps. this long bullet tumbled and keyholed in the .444S's 1:38" twist barrel in every instance.  However, once velocities exceeded the 1950 fps. threshold, the bullet remained stabile out past 100 yards, in order to generate these velocities pressures exceeded the limits of safe and sane operation for the .444 Marlin in these guns, and that data will not under any circumstances be made available.  The 444P "Outfitter" model with 1:20" twist in its 18.5" ported barrel stabilized the bullet very well, and it remained so out to a distance of over 200 yards!

For a rifle conceived as a short-range brush buster with 240-265 grain pistol bullets, this .444 Marlin cartridge certainly thrives on long, heavy bullets, and does so with target-rifle type accuracy to boot!  I think it safe to say that the notion of .444 Marlin rifles not being capable of stabilizing any bullets over 310 grains, not being able to shoot cast bullets over 1600 fps. and being capable of "gallon jug" accuracy at a hundred yards can all be definitively and finally put to rest as mythology!  For the woods wise hunter who limits himself to 200 yard shots at big game, this .444 Marlin cartridge, loaded with any of the above listed bullets is MORE than capable of harvesting anything in North America cleanly and decisively.  The first time, every time, with properly placed shots.

[Spanky]

That's a great read... thanks Tim. 



Spanky

[quickdtoo]

You're welcome, here's part I and II of that series if you didn't find it yet.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

[bikerbeans]

Spanky,

BC foreend is maybe 3" longer than the schnabel foreend on the gun Gendoc posted.  There is a recent post in this forum of a BC foreend on a 22" 45/70 that might help you visualize.  ALso, I think the BC foreend length is in the FAQs, but not sure on that one.  IMO the Mannlicher would really good on an 18" barrel, plus GSI gives you a lot more material/finish options.  ALso, GSI makes Schnable foreends for the Handi so you could go walnut, maple, laminate etc. if you want.

Sounds like you are building a very nice 44, good luck with your project.

BB