i'm surprised

[gatersb]

hey guys i made it to the range today to shoot 45/70 handi with trailboss starting loads with 300 grain bullets didn't shoot for groups due to lack of time and making sure reloads actually fire.  i'm amazed at the lack of recoil about like my 223.  I'm liking the reduced loads by the way why is it if a 45/70 is loaded with a 300 grain bullet at about 1100fps it is too weak for deer but a 45 colt pistol is the stuff with the same load?  Just thinking out loud.  A co worker last night told me that he could catch the bullet it was too slow.  I told him to consult the millons of dead bison first before catching the bullet   Thanks for everyone's help here.  Now i want to loads some BP for some smoke and boom.

[mcwoodduck]

It is the same 30-30 Vs 44 Mag argument.
The guys that write about how enimic 30-30 is for deer and other big game are looking at hunting in the west where shots are longer and will put the 30-30 under the 1,000 foot pounds at the animal.
The same writers will talk about 44mag and how it will handle up to elk.
Of course they are talking about pistol ranges of under 75 Yards where you could use a pointed stick and still get a kill.
The same goes with your 45 Colt.

OH explain to your co-worker that the Bison caught the 45-70 slugs too.  and thier hides went to England to become industrial belts, local hides were turned into winter coats.  and other goods.

[gendoc]

i'd like to see him catch a 405gr @ 1100fps !!!

i think he's miss'n some marbles  

[petemi]

How about a 405 at 1900

Pete

[mechanic]

I read a civil war story once about a trooper who spied a cannon ball bouncing across the field toward him, and stuck out his foot to stop it.  It removed the lower half of that leg and kept going.

Inertia is a strange thing, it ain't always about speed.

[Doublebass73]

I run into just the opposite from people - a 45 Colt is too weak for deer but a 45/70 is the stuff. I tell them that I can get trapdoor 45/70 performance from my 45 Colt carbine but facts like that don't seem to matter to them, their mind is already made up.

[Spanky]

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.



Spanky

[spikehorn]

I killed a spikehorn buck with a 357 mag at 134 paces it was win white box 125gr jsp double lunged him and blew out the drivers side shoulder,he dropped where he was standing and I'm bettin that was less 1000 foot pounds of energy.

[Spanky]

I killed a spikehorn buck with a 357 mag at 134 paces it was win white box 125gr jsp double lunged him and blew out the drivers side shoulder,he dropped where he was standing and I'm bettin that was less 1000 foot pounds of energy.

That's what I'm talkin' about.
That's a good poke with the 357 too.



Spanky

[petemi]

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.



Spanky

People writing that crap are shooting bottlenecked cartridges and don't understand a thing about heavy, wide, long, slow moving bullets.  It's a shame some of them can't encounter one to find out what's what.....and then write about it.

Pete

[Dinny]

hey guys i made it to the range today to shoot 45/70 handi with trailboss starting loads with 300 grain bullets didn't shoot for groups due to lack of time and making sure reloads actually fire.  i'm amazed at the lack of recoil about like my 223.  I'm liking the reduced loads by the way why is it if a 45/70 is loaded with a 300 grain bullet at about 1100fps it is too weak for deer but a 45 colt pistol is the stuff with the same load?  Just thinking out loud.  A co worker last night told me that he could catch the bullet it was too slow.  I told him to consult the millons of dead bison first before catching the bullet   Thanks for everyone's help here.  Now i want to loads some BP for some smoke and boom.

Gater,
  I have a similar load with my 45-70 and it is alot of fun. That load will work fine for deer within sensible range. I also have a 45LC rifle and it is loaded with a heavier bullet flying at that speed. It's fun too and quite capable of killing deer. I would not recommend anyone playing catch with either of those.

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.
Spanky

Spanky,
  I don't think there's anything wrong with that rule. One has to consider a few things when using that as theory. One would be bullet material and type; cast, soft point, semi-jacketed, hollowpoint, flatpoint, etc. Cast bullets don't expand and deposit energy the same as hollowpoints do. I think the other would be caliber. I use that rule for determining the effective range of my .243 Win. That bullet doesn't have a whole lotta weight behind it for retained inertia. Kinda like comparing a .223 to a .308 at long distances. Both may kill you, but only because one has more energy than the other. Albeit, a well-placed shot into the CNS triangle will kill swiftly but, that may be a really small target to hit at a great distance. A near miss into the chest may succumb that same target if enough energy is transferred.

When considering stopping power in a PD firearm, do you feel just as well protected loading lead cast RN bullets as you do hollowpoints? I don't and the reason is due to energy expelled.

Thant's just my 2 cents worth and, like any of my other advice, is not worth anything more than what you paid for it.

Thanks, Dinny

[Dinny]

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.



Spanky

People writing that crap are shooting bottlenecked cartridges and don't understand a thing about heavy, wide, long, slow moving bullets.  It's a shame some of them can't encounter one to find out what's what.....and then write about it.

Pete

Pete,
  Here I am writing this, I shoot both cartridge and bullet types. I understand that rule has it's applications. Limited in many ways, I think it does have some worth.

Thanks, Dinny

[petemi]

Spanky and Dinny, A deer I shot about a year or so ago was a fine, fat yearling doe at about 25 yards.  I whistled at her, she looked right at me and I shot her between the eyes.  I've got to admit the shot was a LE out of the .45-70, but a .38 special would have done the same thing....even a .22 LR perhaps.

Pete

[Dinny]

Spanky and Dinny, A deer I shot about a year or so ago was a fine, fat yearling doe at about 25 yards.  I whistled at her, she looked right at me and I shot her between the eyes.  I've got to admit the shot was a LE out of the .45-70, but a .38 special would have done the same thing....even a .22 LR perhaps.
Pete

In that case the deer was incapacitated by a severe blow to the CNS (central nervous system). A fat heavy bullet at a decent speed, you had all the factors in your favor. But as you cited, it prolly wasn't all that necessary.

Thanks, Dinny

[kevinsmith5]

A good friend of my brothers put the 45-70 down as a deer rifle when he first saw me with it at the farm.  He was sighting in his new scope on his 25'06 and had just dialed it in at 100 yards with a target on a 2"x12" L frame at 100 yards.  He'd punched several holes through it but the target was standing firmly in place. When he was done I popped one 410 gr hardcast into it, flipped the target clear over and had taken a 2" chunk out of the back of the 2"x12". After that he pretty muched dropped the "it won't kill a deer" line.

P.S. - in the past two years every deer he's shot at the farm with his 25'06 has been tracked, all mine are DRT.

[Dinny]

Kevinsmith,
  I love it!  I can't wait until I move to a state that allows rifles for deer hunting. My 45-70 doesn't get much use right now and I want to bloody it with something more than starlings.....

Thanks, Dinny

[mcwoodduck]

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.



Spanky

Two things.
1) I was showing that the same writers that bad mouth a 30-30 that beats the 1,000 foot pounds out to 125 yards, will say that the 44 mag is the perfect handgun, only making about 800 Foot pounds at the tube is capable of taking game these same writers said need 2,000 foot pounds out of a rifle.  
The two bullets work differently.
2) It is a rule of thumb, a nice round number, and a place to start.
in the 20's and 30's metalurgy limited the power of the rounds and people used what they could afford.  25 acp, 32 S&W, 32acp and 38S&W were personal protection carry gun kings.  38 spl was a power house and 45 acp / colt were cannons.  We have found that the small rounds worked but there are more powerful rounds that work better.  38 Spl and 45 have become main streams and the small rounds, while still will work there are better rounds that have become more main stream.  At the same time 30-06 (20's to 30's) was a cannon and has become the bench mark by what everything else is compared as a big game round.

[kevinsmith5]

Dinny - go look at some of Quick's 300 gr HP loads he's posted. He and I use different approaches to dropping deer, but I'm getting a 22" inch short throated 45-70 (currently have only a 32" that I throated so I can load big thumpers) just so I can try his loads. Their IMPRESSIVE....

[Dinny]

Thanks! I'll do that.

Dinny

[wreckhog]

I'm gonna guess that a bison hunter did not about DRT or even a clean kill. They were shooting at massive herds of animals on wide open plains. In some cases they were doing it to deprive some Indian of the same.

Not sure what this has to do with the typical short season, public land type of hunting we do these days.

The oldtimers were simply working under a different sets of rules. Kinda like the natives in AK using .223 FMJ for bear and caribou.

[gatersb]

i agree completely with you guys if an arrow with 50 lbs of energy can kill a deer then dead is dead.  Just was surprised with the difference in recoil.  Yeah the co worker is young and thinks if it aint a 7mm mag (nothing wrong with the cartridge at all) then you are wasting your time hunting around here.  Its ok my analogy to him was get a train up to 30 mph the get your truck up to 30 mph and see which one stops first   Thanks again for all the info and help now i really want to get a 357 mag barrel now

[briannmilewis]

Not having the benefit of hunting deer yet, but having done a lot of reading and research about what deer rifle to buy first, I took the 1,000ft lb on target rule of thumb to apply pretty much to small caliber bottle-neck cartridges (30 cal and under), and it was a Drop Right There (DRT) expected result at short distances. I also understood the implications were that if you violated this rule of thumb, the more likely you are to have to track your deer.

So my takeaway was that if you wanted DRT use big heavy bullets or really fast 30 cal or less at 100 yards or so. Long shots of 200+ yds with small bottle neck cartridges or big heavy bullets, I would not have any expectation of DRT. Hope I have it figured right, and if I don't, I am sure you will let me know.

[wreckhog]

i agree completely with you guys if an arrow with 50 lbs of energy can kill a deer then dead is dead.  Just was surprised with the difference in recoil.  Yeah the co worker is young and thinks if it aint a 7mm mag (nothing wrong with the cartridge at all) then you are wasting your time hunting around here.  Its ok my analogy to him was get a train up to 30 mph the get your truck up to 30 mph and see which one stops first   Thanks again for all the info and help now i really want to get a 357 mag barrel now

People that hunt pigs with knives use weapons with near zero energy. I feel that is more equivalent to shooting a deer with an arrow.

[bikerbeans]

Dinny,

Starlings with  your 45/70?  I have only been using my 223 on these pests, I didn't realize I was undergunned.  Apparently these dirty birds are more dangerous that I thought.

Mechanic,

I read that same story a long time ago about the soldier and the cannonball.  If you happen to remember the title or author let me know.

BB

[gendoc]

I just wish people would stop regurgitating the "1000 pounds of energy at the animal garbage"... back when guys were hunters and not snipers alot of deer were killed with 25-20's, 32-20's and such... they don't make that ever... not at the muzzle... not at 50yds... not at 100yds... never. Lots of animals been killed with 'em though. So please give up the 1000 pound nonsense.



Spanky

i like that !!!    i'm wif ya....

[kevinsmith5]

I ran my 410 gr load through a ballistics calculator today. With a piddly MV if 1750 fps it has a energy of 1000 foot pounds beyond 600 yrds. In fact, it's over 1100 at 600 yards.

[bikerbeans]

405 grain @ 1900 FPS, must be da famous UP handloads I been hearin' about.

[LONGTOM]

In the past I have dropped deer with fast 55gr bullets and slow 400gr bullets.
I have seen both do poor jobs of killing when the shots go astray.
It really don't take much to break a rib and reach the vitals.
That being said, I still like a large bullet travailing at a high rate of speed to help ensure a complete pass through for a good blood trail if the animal doesn't DRT.
It also helps to have a little flatter trajectory if you are shooting at longer distances.

I really don't pay much attention to the 1000lb rule.
I prefer to go with real world experences.
A good shooting 32-20, 30-30, 45-70 (fast or slow), and just about any reasonable calliber with the right bullet will and has gotten the job done for years as long as the shot is true.

Not from some book or famous writer, just words from a devoted hunter with over 43 years of hunting and killing game with many different calibers in different situations.
Take it for what it's worth!



LONGTOM