Why does my H&R bull barrel .223 do this?

[JamesIII]

Went to the range yesterday with the .223. I fired 2 factory ammo warmup shots and then started testing loads in groups of 4. All were BL-C2 and Hornady 55 gr. v-max. Starting load was 24 gr. The 24 gr. had 2 shots touching and then left about 1 inch, 2 more shots touching. Every load had the same pattern except the shots opened up as powder increased, but you could still see the (2) 2 shot groups each time. I do not know if the groups were from consecutive shots or alternating. I did check scope mounts and rings, all good there. Heck, maybe it was just me, I have not been shooting for awhile. Any help would be appreciated. JamesIII

[gendoc]

quick shoot'n tends to cause stringing,     let the barrel cool between shots.......
 others will probably have different comments.
and don't clean the bore till you get home, and expect to foul it when you return
before checking accuracy....

[quickdtoo]

Follow the advice in the Handi Basic 101, see if that helps, shooting it without the forend will let ya know if the forend is the problem.

Tim

[PawPaw]

Mine did the same thing today.  The first three shots went into 0.526 with two shots nearly touching.  The next three shots, five minutes later, went into 3.571, in a nearly perfect triangle around the bullseye.  Ammo was 55 grain Federal.

[JamesIII]

Just finished loading up some more ammo. This time I weighed every powder charge (no powder measure). I will wait until I can devote a considerable amount of time to slowly go though this, might even have to take some time off to go to the range when no one is around. Thanks for your input. JamesIII

[bikerbeans]

James,

A trip to range with no one there but yourself is a great day, even if the 223 doesn't shoot better!. 

BB

[All Hawks Kill]

I had some issues with my 223, not a bull barrel but strange things like you are talking about.  I went to the Handi 101 and the FAQ and started working on mine slowly and now I have a real shooter with factory loads.  I can list everything I did, but it might not be the same for your rifle.  So what have you done to yours if anything?

[JamesIII]

I completely disassembled the rifle and cleaned it when I got it new. I then polished the barrel. I think I will clean and polish the barrel one more time before heading back to the range. I have not fired it with the forearm off, that is at the top of the list to check. The round count is still under 120, so it may just be breaking in yet. Even though I have read the Handi Basics 101 many times, I will print off a copy and throw it in the range box just incase I forgot something. Thank you all for your help. I will post an update when I get back from the range. JamesIII

[NFG]

It's very hard to determine just what's going on or what is causing the problem...I've been working with my 17FB for the past several days, getting ready for rat season.

I tried 3 powders, WW748, IMR 4198 and Varget...20gr Vmax, 1.89" COAL, seated 0.100" deep just touching lands.  All powders, volume wise, were close to 100% capacity...varying velocities from ~37 to 3900fs.  All the brass has been "bench prepped", and I weigh sort out 5 to work with.

EVERY POWDER produced a different group...with Varget doing the best at about 1 1/4", the others ran up to 2".  This is no where near my acceptable accuracy so I have more work to do.

What you need to do is reduce the variables as much as possible...take 5 cases, bench prep them - weigh and match as close as possible, no more than 3 gr difference, turn the necks slightly, debur the flashholes and uniform the primer pockets. Fire 3 shot groups to start with and make sure any small group is repeatable...many times you can fire a nice small 3 shot group then the next 3 go into La-La land.

Find the point where the bullet touches the lands, EACH brand and weight you use and seat the bullets about 0.025" less than this measurement to start with...many of my 22 cals, no matter WHAT case size like to be seated between 0.015 and 0.030" off the lands to get the best accuracy.

Follow the FAQ's...Pick a powder that gives the highest velocity at the lowest pressure...BLC-2 is a good one but I found Varget to be just about the best powder for all my 223's...and most of my other small cal shooters...I suggest you try it.

You need to KNOW where EACH bullet hits, each time...I use at least a 20 power scope when I'm load developing or a spotting scope and keep a target on the bench...I set the fired case on the bench target where the bullet strikes on the main target so I can watch just how the group develops...I also draw a picture of the target in my notes next to the load data so I always have a record of just what happened.

You need good notes AND specific data to determing just what is going one and which way to jump each change.

The NEF can be a PITA to load develop some times...I HAD a NEF 223 HB I wasn't able to get to shoot worth spit no matter WHAT I did...so I chopped off the barrel and turned it into a stub barrel for the 17 FB and 6mm BR.  The chamber cut of center was so bad I couldn't even use it for the longer 222 Rem Mag...I would have needed to rebore the chamber out to a larger case.

You can try Varget, another buyllet brand and/or weight of bullets, a different primer, as starters...and/or try several brands of factory ammo and KEEP good records.

Sometimes load development goes easy sometimes hard.

One other thing you can think about...I've used 3 cases as close to identical as possible...one load...fired 4 - 3 shot groups...all within about 10 minutes of each other(I have my own range)...one group was a bug hole...barely over bullet size, one went half inch...two were 3's...NOT CONSECUTIVELY increasing in size...each group was a different size, at different times, over time.  These were shot in a very accurate benchrest rifle.  The only thing I can relate this to is different variation in ogives...when I sorted the bullets as to ogive point to 0.002" AND bullet weight to 1/10 gr...the bugholes came back, but keeping 1/2" accuracy will take care of all my varminting needs and I'm WAY out of competition shooting now.

To get accuracy down below 1", and keep it there consistently, takes a WHOLE lot of work at every level in the shooting process.

Luck

[snapcrackpop]

I get that often and think it's due to the forearm pressure changing from shot to shot.
Adding an O-ring to the barrel stud helped greatly overall.

Some say don't clean the barrel till it starts shooting bad...

[necchi]

Some say don't clean the barrel till it starts shooting bad...

 So TRUE, my Bull barrel needs AT LEAST 5 shot's to BEGIN to shoot accurate, then it needs cleaning around 100-150 rounds down the tube. Frequent cleanings are an excersize futility.

An aside;
 For me I have noticed that a Vertical string is a hot barrel, Horizontal stings are the result of ME on the trigger.  It is plainly obvious. I watched my boy do it as I fed him shells and spotted for a ladder test with the 708, he WILL spend some time with the 223 just so he can see it for himself. He has to learn trigger control himself, all I can do is show him the pictures and guide him.

[NFG]

Example of what I talked about.

NEF Handi, 17 HMR barrel rechambered to 17 FB fitted to a SB2 frame....Zero headspace, not slop, forend fully bedded in JB Weld steel epoxy...mount screw hole steel pillared, mount additionally silver soldered...11° re-crowned.

Ammo...benchrest prepped cases...weight sorted to 0.5gr, necks turned 80%, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred...fired case is 0.004" longer at shoulder than case resized with standard shell holder...I use a plus 0.004" Redding Competition shell holder so the case shoulder is NOT set back...just resized.  A FL bushing type resizer would be even better...The neck turned and sized cases have ID 0.002" smaller than bullet size.

Bull size 1 1/4"

Top center 5 shot group 7/8" x 1", mixed bullets/cases just grabbed out of the boxes, Varget powder start load XX.4 gr, bullet seated just off lands 1.89" OAL - 2.57" on ogive. Plenty OK for sage rats out to about 200 yds and not a lot of mucking about once the brass is prepped.

Bottom center group 2" x 5/8", mixed bullet and case, same seating as above but IMR4198 powder...NOT GOOD enough to continue testing this powder...maybe H4198 would do better.

Top lefthand group 1 x 3/4", bullet weight sorted, actual weight is 19.9 gr, cases weight sorted 0.2 gr, seated 1.87/2.555" ogive Varget start XX.5 gr 100% to base of seated bullet.  Windy from left to right, 20-40 mph and fishtailing, fired during lulls, but looks like one might have gotten away.  Vertical stringing in this case indicates powder and/or seating not quite right.

Bottom lefthand group 5/8 x 1/2", bullet and case as above, seated 1.89/2.57 ogive, Varget powder XX.6 gr.  Much better for sage rats out to 350 yds but a little more time in measuring and weighing.

Velocity of this "best" group is 3750-3800fs.

Is it repeatable?  Most likely with those same 5 cases and any weight sorted to the same weight range...and the group might shrink a bit more if I measure and sort each weight sorted bullet by ogives...the 5 bullets I used for this last group varied 0.002" at the ogive...definitely worth it if this were a benchrest/target rifle and I would kill for the smallest group and the win.

When bullets and cases are weight sorted and the seating is correct then the groups will shrink considerably...see the difference between the mixed bullet/cases and the weight sorted groups...only .2 grain difference in powder weight and .02" difference in cartridge OAL at the ogive overall changes...one step at a time.

This is one reason I harp on spending chump change on Hornady headspace and bullet length gauges.  Without these tools AND keeping good records how do you know which way to go OR where the actual accuracy problems lies.

I have posted this same information on this forum and on several others and there are many others with much better information...BUT you have to search for it.

Many people have the same problems and ask the same question but DON'T bother with doing their own homework...it would do you much more good to dig that info out on your own...you would get ALL of it at the same time rather than piecemealing it.

The 17's and 20's need to be cleaned more often as the fouling builds up faster due to the smaller hole...I fired 20 rounds in this test and the rifle is bore is now soaking in Patchout...22 and above can get away with less, the Ultra hivelo's get cleaned usually after about 20-25 shots...I usually only clean when the groups start opening up...but I clean all my shooters thoroughly once a year no matter what...even though some don't get shot at all.

Everyone has their own thoughts on the cleaning subject...opinions vary and any lengthy arguments are a waste of time that never do much good.

Luck