U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan

[Dee]

I don't disagree in a way myron, but why go up in carry weight and bulk with a larger round, when an expanding bullet will do the trick with a few grains of weight added to that? I just don't understand their logic. They blow our guys up, we blow their guys up, and we shoot each other with fmj bullets. Where's the logic in that?
It's like saying it's alright to run over the guy with a hummer, buy not with a tank. And while I'm on that subject, there is no such thing as knock down power. If there was it would knock the shootee, AND the shooter down. A hummer or a tank will knock you down however. Messin up internal organs can be done with a rail road spike or an ice pick, but the results are the same.

All of that is true concerning the bullet, the 223 needs vel. plus the right bullet for good effect. And in addition to the bullet, the short barrel reduces the range that the load is effective, it shows up a good deal after 250 yds., which happens alot in the sandbox & yes I am aware of the reason of the stub tube. So, if you keep the short barrel & same bullets, the only thing you can do is increase caliber.

Like I said in my last post. Change the upper on the M4, increase the caliber, and loosen the tolerances.

[williamlayton]

Dee
The concern for many, in the M4, is the barrel length for a combination of uses.
The bull pup answers the concern and is already developed.
Same length as the M4 and a 16" barrel.
The cosmetics are unappealing to some because they a "different"--most reports find them much better than acceptable.
Blessings

[Dee]

So the bullpup will replace a 16" barrel with a 16" barrel". Sportsmen have been looking for the perfect all around rifle for centuries. If there is no such thing in the sports category, why would anyone thing there is one in a theater far more complex than hunting? Weaponry of one ilk is never gonna fit all aspects of war.

[ironglow]

Dee;
    Ditto, ditto, ditto....right on !  Close up and personal requires a far different weapon than sniping at 300..500 or 800 yards and beyond. the Mossy 500 or the M4 is a far different weapon than the Barrett .50 cal.

  I don't appreciate 'one size fits all' in gloves or guns.

[williamlayton]

The bullpup design places the fireing closer too the cheek and still allows a 16" barrel.
The M4 is considerable shorter.
Fine for house cleaning--poor at range.
The bullpup is the same length as the M4--but still carries the 16" barrel.
British are useing it, as we speak.
Blessings

[Dee]

William I Have an M4, and it has a 16" barrel. My son carried an M4, and it had a 16" barrel. Proper sighting almost , and sometimes does, put your nose touching the charging handle. How close to the firing do you need to be?

[nomosendero]

I don't disagree in a way myron, but why go up in carry weight and bulk with a larger round, when an expanding bullet will do the trick with a few grains of weight added to that? I just don't understand their logic. They blow our guys up, we blow their guys up, and we shoot each other with fmj bullets. Where's the logic in that?
It's like saying it's alright to run over the guy with a hummer, buy not with a tank. And while I'm on that subject, there is no such thing as knock down power. If there was it would knock the shootee, AND the shooter down. A hummer or a tank will knock you down however. Messin up internal organs can be done with a rail road spike or an ice pick, but the results are the same.

All of that is true concerning the bullet, the 223 needs vel. plus the right bullet for good effect. And in addition to the bullet, the short barrel reduces the range that the load is effective, it shows up a good deal after 250 yds., which happens alot in the sandbox & yes I am aware of the reason of the stub tube. So, if you keep the short barrel & same bullets, the only thing you can do is increase caliber.

Like I said in my last post. Change the upper on the M4, increase the caliber, and loosen the tolerances.

 Yea, that makes sense, in fact too much for Gov.

A Bullpup would be a much greater expense, fewer spare parts' etc. If using a bullpup, you could use a longer barrel because of shorter overall length, but again, a high price. The Brits don't have near as many
military to arm, nor border Patrol, & various gov agencies.

[williamlayton]

The only M4's I am aware of have a shorter barrel.
Learn something new everyday.
Blessings

[ironglow]

William;
  I was unaware of the M4 longer barrel version, since my grandson mentioned only the short barrelled version and the M16A2 as the longer one..at least that is the way I understood it. So I looked it up, and sure enough..there is a long barrelled version  http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm

  From what I understand from my grandson, the M4 is not simply a short M16, since it has a wholly different gas operating system. Technical questions can be referred to him on this forum  since he does drop in as "Ironglowjr"..  He is an arm,orer and deals with thousands of hand held marine corps weapons on a daily basis.

[ironglow]

Whoops..forgot an address.. He's patient (like gramps) and would try to help.

  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=32165

[SHOOTALL]

Every bore size has a bullet weight range that works the best in it . You can shoot above it and below it but in each case you comprise more .
Why is it nessary for all soliders to tote the exact same gun ? It would seem that each squard would carry a compliment of weapons to suit what ever they run into . Some with short M-4's some with M-14's , a saw , etc. hey one might have a shotgun on hand . Seems this is whats going on today ?
Custer gives us a lesson in leaving weapons at the base because they are heavy and slow you down.
I watched a show on Navy Seals , they carry 1200 rounds for each saw . A 4man team carrys 2 saws . The other two carry a ton of grenades and ammo they need .

[ironglow]

Every bore size has a bullet weight range that works the best in it . You can shoot above it and below it but in each case you comprise more .
Why is it nessary for all soliders to tote the exact same gun ? It would seem that each squard would carry a compliment of weapons to suit what ever they run into . Some with short M-4's some with M-14's , a saw , etc. hey one might have a shotgun on hand . Seems this is whats going on today ?
Custer gives us a lesson in leaving weapons at the base because they are heavy and slow you down.
I watched a show on Navy Seals , they carry 1200 rounds for each saw . A 4man team carrys 2 saws . The other two carry a ton of grenades and ammo they need .

  Perhaps too much diversification leads to logical problems. We do have fairly broad diversification already..

[SHOOTALL]

No more so than in WW-2 really and it seemed to work there . Will a SAW shooting 223 really defeat the same cover a 308 will ? if not is the idea of having ammo that works in both SAW and rifle benifical ? also it would be almost impossible to link ammo for the SAW in a fight ? And would there be time to strip links from ammo to use in a rifle while under fire . If its not pratical to do either then why not have a weapon that can destory walls and have a 800 yard or more effective range ? The only place it may have an effect would be where its made and that said in America it is little more than setting up seperate lines to make it .