Author Topic: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan  (Read 3787 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/25/military-reconsiders-armys-use-m-rifles-afghanistan/

America's Rifle is "notoriously unreliable" and ineffective in combat?!? Somebody get a rope!  ;D
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 04:58:34 PM »
The M-4 is much to politically incorrect to continue to use.  It makes us look bad to the rest of the world.  The military is looking at a new "gun" that is basically a modified "soft air" type weapon that fires hollow BB's filled with a EPA approved drug (Calif. pending) that once absorbed on the skin, will render the victim (terrorist) unconscious for several hours.  Then troops can separate the innocent villagers from terrorists.  The terrorists can then be flown back to the US and be made citizens, so they can be tried in civilian court.   Just a guess....

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline myronman3

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 07:03:16 PM »
i love the m4.    that being said, i would love to see our boys given better weapons and a better caliber. 

Offline torpedoman

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 07:30:23 PM »
The "primitive AK 47" is quiet possibly the best battle rifle ever fielded. However it is not effective at 666 yards in fact i seriously doubt your ability to hit a car with one at that distance.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 08:24:57 PM »
666 yds is alot to expect from a battle rifle, nevermind the soldier carrying it. Marksmanship ain't what it used to be; bodyfat aint the only standard lowered to keep folks in. That said, 9mm carbines would probably be ideal for the shooter they had in mind when they developed the M16. I pondered aloud once if they would designate weapons based on marksmanship if that would actually encourage some folks to try a little harder at the range. I'm guessing one firefight with a Jennings .22 and folks would try a little harder.
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Offline RB1235

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 10:06:04 PM »
 The M16 platform has been plagued with more trouble than I believe most countries with any sanity would tollerate. The new version does still jam in combat. No question about it, an m4 is far superior to the m16a1. But that still doesn't change the fact that into it's 4th decade of service there are still problamatic issues. Time for a switch and up the caliber as well. It is truely pathetic when most contender hunters have a better cartridge for hunting deer than our service men have for using in war.

Offline Victor3

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 11:52:48 PM »
 It is getting a bit long in the tooth (But so is the 1911 and I don't personally believe it's been beaten in the design department over the past century.  :)).

 I imagine the replacement will be a more modular (bullpup?) design in 6.x cal that can contain various gadgets in a clamshell housing. Just about everything hung on an M4 looks like a flimsy afterthought.
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Offline Dee

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 12:59:05 AM »
Give'em all Winchester 94s, and plenty of 30WCF!
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2010, 01:36:45 AM »
Prolly work Dee! Or some 308's mixed in in semi auto if there are men that can carry one all day!
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Offline myronman3

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2010, 03:22:12 AM »
whaddya mean if there are men that can carry them all day???   i carried a saw which is 17 pounds empty, add ammo to it and suddenly it is alot heavier.  a semi auto 308 is no way even close to 17 pounds. 

  our troops should have the ability to pick which weapons they want to take on a given mission.  they should have m4s, m249s, m203s, m16s, m14s, m60s, bolt action sniper rifles and a few 50s around for special occasions.   and any pistol they want.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2010, 03:33:39 AM »
I sure hope all those who jump all over me every time i say the 223 is not that great reads this . Like a the guy always said at 500 yards you think you hit with a 223 . With a 308 the red vapor comfirms it .
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Offline Scibaer

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 03:43:46 AM »
bigeasy has it right... BO dont want to kill them terrorists , he wants them to be US citizens so he can collect more votes to keep him in office...

Offline RB1235

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 05:14:21 AM »
I sure hope all those who jump all over me every time i say the 223 is not that great reads this . Like a the guy always said at 500 yards you think you hit with a 223 . With a 308 the red vapor comfirms it .

That would make a good bottom of the page phrase quote. It's priceless.

Offline Dances with Geoducks

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 05:22:01 AM »
The "primitive AK 47" is quiet possibly the best battle rifle ever fielded.

If you consider the only thing it does well is spit ammo out. 200 yards is a good shot with one.

Give our guys M1 Garands, and the playing field will tilt back in our direction

Offline Dee

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 06:10:24 AM »
With the exception of the ball ammo used by the military, I have made shots far beyond 300 yards on coyotes where being a little off on my aim, or the wind drift, caused the coyote to be disemboweled. The coyote being a much thicker skinned animal that a human, which is one of the thinnest skinned animals on the planet.
As far as a "pink mist" at 500 yards or beyond it would have to be a head shot using 308 ball ammo, or a video game. Only a thin jacketed soft point would open at that range, and a ball round will not usually open at any range.
I have nothing against 308, and shot hundreds and hundreds or rounds thru my M1A1, and made some great shots with it, but I certainly would not want to lug it, and 6 to 8 loaded 20 round mags around in 110+ heat day after day, considering the M14 itself loaded weighs around 11 pounds. That added to other equipment would be a tough hump for young man.
Also at 500 to 600 yards why not let air and artillery engage them also, every soldier cannot be a sniper? 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 06:12:50 AM »
I'm glad someone in the US Military is finally grasping the facts.  The M4 is ok for police work or on the range.  Not so good in combat.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline gstewart44

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 06:19:18 AM »
It's time for the 6.8 spc round .......
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Offline Swampman

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 06:41:43 AM »
It's the platform not the caliber.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline blind ear

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 07:00:35 AM »
Who set up the guidelines that the AR15 or M16 had to meet to be chosen? How much was military planning and how much was congressional budget committe requirements? How many different gun makers have  supplied the arm to the military since the design was approved ? I don't know , I am just curious.
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Offline born-to-hunt

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 07:28:48 AM »
What if they made an M4 style gun that shoots the 7.62 round or something similar or if they use the AR-10 in .308 even though it is pretty bulky and heavy. What about getting a bigger handgun in there too I think the M9 is a bit small.
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Offline RB1235

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2010, 07:31:58 AM »
Without looking it up, just off of memory. The airforce wanted a rifle fitting the requirements for guarding bases I believe. McNamera was one of Kennedy's guys.There were 3, they were called the whiz kids. Testing was done on 50 lb piglets to super inflate the effectiveness of the varmint round. He ordered every branch be issued the armalite. He was the same idiot who though that rounds fired equaled enemies killed. Don't remember the figures anymore but they would have killed over the whole population of Vietnam a few times if the reported casualties were added up. Then later we bullied NATO into the round. It was hated by all the generals. But the White House thought it was futuristic. So in turn many a US soldier met his end because of the ill tested rifle.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 08:43:08 AM »
Quote
whaddya mean if there are men that can carry them all day???

HOLD ON TO YER GI ISSUE DRAWERS MYRON! IT was not meant as a derogatory remark. I have a AR 10 in 308 and its heavy for a carry rifle, also, Not everyone in the platoon carried a "SAW" I'll bet. Now a few of those(308's) in platoon could tip the balance a bit, ya think.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 08:49:56 AM »
The troops today are confronted with the same concerns we had in Nam,  the round is very effective at close range in OPEN areas, throw in distance and the urban landscape we are fighting in many areas today and the round just does not provide the penetration needed to do damage .

I agree with one of the above comments, the .308 would be an excellent choice for replacement.

Offline Swampman

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2010, 08:59:43 AM »
I've always felt the .243 Winchester would have been perfect.  It would have worked in the existing M-14 and the M-60 with a rebarrel and a little tweaking.

We need a new platform.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2010, 09:44:41 AM »
The M-16A1 lasted 15 years before its first major modification - I know, the Army gave me one in 87, then saw the A2 come out. Went in the Marine Corps and was handed an A3 in 90-98; got out, came back, A4 in 2006, and M4 in 2007. There's also a suppressed version. So that's at least 6 variants in a relatively short time. Post Nam, pre Gulf War I it was perfect for the "peacetime" mission, but once we hit the desert annoyances became issues. Then Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq ... the platform and the caliber are ok for garrison duties, but limited in the combat arena.

But you cannot separate the platform/caliber from the wetware - the nut behind the trigger. The M16 was ostensibly developed with the wetware in mind. If you track all other relative statistics we have larger percentage of females, much lower physical fitness standards. In 2009 mental health visits outnumbered childbirth & pediatrics, way outnumbered wounded/injured, and most of those were "stress" from folks who never deployed. So the least common denominator [average user] of the US main battle rifle TODAY as opposed to NAM is smaller, slower, not as strong physically or mentally (even after entry level training), not as fit, less likely to have any firearms familiarity, but more likely to fire their weapon at least once in their tour of duty outside of training. We also fire more frequently with acute declination and inclination, which very few shooters understand ballistics. We gave them 4x optics because we found them less likely to take shots past 100yds with iron sights, but the optics are very rarely BZO'd.

Now a few of us on here have been with Infantry so you might say, not true! One, I'm talking across the entire military, and two I've watched the combat arms community lower standards over the past 23 years. I started out as a machinegunner with a 60, just glad I didn't get the mortar team, and I got pretty good with it so when I go to the ranges now and watch the 240 gunners or the SAW gunners I know what I'm looking for. Over on the KD range, marksmanship with the M16/4 is creeping downwards - fewer experts, more unks. But we take them out to combat anyway.

Anyone on GBO should attest to the fact that handing a poor marksman a better more expensive weapon is not going to inherently improve effectiveness. And if that marksman is in poor health (in every aspect of the word) it just makes it worse - fatty runs 1/4 mile from the back of the stryker to cover with her ppe on, dehydrated, kidney stones and bubble guts, breathing like a steam engine, scared as all get out, I want her armed with a bomb proof platform with a short range large caliber projectile. When she gets back Fobbitown she'll be more worried about skyping her boyfriend than weapons maintenance - its a fact. Let the "shooters" carry the longer range guns; they know what distance and angle can do to a trajectory. The one gun fits all mentality is silly.
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Offline myronman3

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 09:52:31 AM »
Quote
HOLD ON TO YER GI ISSUE DRAWERS MYRON!
  the joke is on you..... ever hear of the term "commando"?   and if so, do you know why they call it that?  lol.

 i always figured the 243 or a 260 remington would have been a hellaicous round for killing badguys.  the 6.8 and the 6.5 grendel are excellent cartriges; with the grendel having the edge in long distance.    jump up to a 308 case and added velocity, you are talking one helluva long range gun.   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 10:09:48 AM »
There is an article that says the Army has found the M-4 is not effective past 2000 feet . That is not reliable to stop an enemy . It also stated the conflicts we are in today the distance is greater than that.
 The wizz kids were all about cutting cost .
The funny thing is they are taking old M-14's out of storage and they are working just fine .
As far a females , gays or anyone else in the military if you can't take the heat stay out the kitchen with regard to toting a weapon.
As far as 300 yard shots , I have made such on ground hogs with my 223 bolt gun , but the critter wasn't shooting back and if i missed it didn't make much difference if he knew my position . As far as big guns at 5-600 yards seem suicide for the troops mixed in really . Seems snipers and Desinated marksmen COVER squards often at those distances who get into fights at close range ie walk into ambush. With APC's how many really carry on foot all day ? Some do but is it the norm ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline beerbelly

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 12:00:54 PM »
I don't know what has supposedly happened to the  troops to become so weak as to not be able to hump a descent rifle around.
  Back in the dark ages, when I joined the Marine Corps, we had a thing called the BAR. It weighed 19.5 pounds empty and 21 loaded. I pissed and moaned but humped one many a mile. Being naturally lazy I would much rather had an M1 Garand. It only weighed about nine pounds. But they were far superior to the M16. At least in my opinion. The corps had a thing about being able to hit what you were shooting at back then too.
                                        Beerbelly

Offline RB1235

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 12:28:28 PM »
Good lord beerbelly, you are an old codger. Does that date you to being a Marine around Korea or a hair past?
Have a good day.

Offline myronman3

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Re: U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 01:08:35 PM »
the garand and m14 are very nice rifles.  i wouldnt feel undergunned with one on certain missions.  but, again i say that soldiers should be able to choose their weapon according to the mission on hand.