Better rifle off-hand control/accuracy, straight or pistol-grip?

[briannmilewis]

Is there any real-world evidence by respected sources, or personal experience among the good folks here based on some kind of testing, that one type is better than the other when it comes to off-hand shooting accuracy and control?

Is a thumb-hole stock the ultimate in control? (No, I don't want to put a thumb-hole stock on a H&R 45LC, I am not that sacrilegious!)

Or is it all personal choice and preference?

Does more control = more off-hand accuracy? <-- Or is that just one of those idiot questions I throw in now and then to stay competitive in the GBO NEF/H&R Centerfire Rifles Lowest IQ game? Has anyone seen the Leader Board around here somewhere?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[dangerranger]

If I were looking for strictly off hand shooting stock design, Id look at what the sillhoet shooters are using. mostly pistolgriped . DR

[S.E.Ak]

Stright stock by design locks the wrist while shooting a moveing gun

[gcrank1]

Look at the stock designs used for strictly offhand target matches, ie:; schuetzen rifles, etc. Of course, these are target rifles, not moving game rifles. Bench rifles also are dedicated to 'getting well in' behind the gun.
Moving game hunting rifles can be another story. You may want to study the shotgun forms also. Many upland smoothbores in the classic English style have a straight wrist. Yet, Ive noticed (dont shoot shotguns much) most competiton trap and skeet guns have a 'pistol' grip?

[necchi]

Well, I think you can look at the Military for ton's of evidence, experiance and testing. Thus their current configurations.

 Successfull offhand shooting has ALOT to do with human body ergonomics/muscle control. You must consider the human factor, the gun itself secured by vises will or should shoot one hole. (all things considered and made same, including ammo)

 I shoot alot of off hand during Rendezvous season and pistol grips are not part of that. The successull shooter is one that understands his;
 physical condition,( you need to excercise)
 muscle control and diet, (you have 15 seconds during a hold, before the muscles need to recover energy)
 Breathing and Heartbeat, (again physical)
 Drift and trigger control, (you are going to move while holding)
 Stance and "Natural Point of Aim",,,
There's a bunch of stuff,,

Anyways, given an option of stock configuration, the thumb-hole and a wide/large forearm lends itself to better off hand shooting. Simply because of better fit to the human body, guy's don't go out an get custom fitted stocks just because they look cool. 

[Doublebass73]

I'm not exactly sure why but I shoot better offhand with a straight grip so that's what I use. I never really gave it any thought until now.

[NFG]

Necchi pretty well sums it up.

Thumbhole or deep pistol grips with wide forends to grab on to works best for me especially for hard hitting calibers in ANY rifle (or pistol).  I can't hold a straight grip worth a hoot...it just slips through my hand...I have a very hard time holding my 45-120 BC with the OEM straigh grip and forend, but when I change to aftermarket thumbhole and forend it becomes much more managable...recoil is spread between shoulder and hands.

Look at yourself in the mirror while holding both a straight grip and a pistol grip...you can see AND feel the difference.

But a lot depends on YOUR shape...forget what works for others...it's YOU that shoots YOUR guns...make them fit YOU.

Luck

[necchi]

ya know that's a good point too,
 I've been shooting for 30+ years. Because of that I'm "use too" old school stocks, Pop's old Stevens double, Remington 870's an 700's an all those Trad BP gun's. Bout' the only "custom" I've ever gotten into was cuttin some off the butt to get a better LOP for ME.

 An interesting thing is years ago folks where sportserizing military guns, now their militarizing sport guns. Still can't understand ATI stocks on a Handi, I guess they look cool, but ya still only get one shot. I'd be embarrassed to be seen with such in deer camp. Too each his own.
 Got a kid at work, tried to up for Marines at 18, (didn't make it, asthma trouble). He wanted to get a thumb hole for his 870 and asked me about it, he wondered if I ever tried one, "nope", I says, "I guess I've been shootin the old stocks too long ta need one".
 Point is, the most shooting he's done was in those few months of basic,,he got use too a different type of stock/grip.

[myarmor]

Just my 2cents worth, try both for yourself and see which you prefer. I like the look of a classic straight grip, but I shoot much better with a pistol grip and thumbhole stocks.



-Aaron

[bulletstuffer]

I shoot alot off hand once I get a load worked up off the bench.  Most off hand shooting I do is at 100 yards.  IMO a good trigger is equally important for accurate off hand shooting.  I prefer the Win 70 and Rem 700 stocks for off hand shooting.  Good luck

Bulletstuffer

[Dances with Geoducks]

My Marlin 30AS with a pistol grip stock seem to be more stable and quick to saddle up than either one of my straight stocked
Winnie 94 and Handi.

It also weighs more, and is slower to move from target to target.

[Airsporter]

'real world evidence?'  Do a google search for 'olympic match rifles.'  Olympic shooters are the best offhand shooters in the world.  If you find anything other than a 'pistol grip,' let me know.   Straight stocks are great for carry in the field, which may actually be an advantage in some hunting situations, but not when it comes time to pull the trigger.

[guns-o-fun]

I think it depends on you AND the individual gun.  I have a magnum contour 35 whelen that I recently put in a Boyd's superlight thumbhole stock and my level of comfort and sureness of hold have gone way up.  On the other hand, I have an old Marlin 35 Rem that has a straight grip - and it shoots great groups offhand - but the feel of the gun is, of course, completely different.  Just my $.02.  See what works best for you and your gun.

[wreckhog]

Look at what the snipers are using. It ain't straight English stocks.

[guns-o-fun]

and again, it depends on what the context of "accuracy" is - in the field?  at the bench?....

[Doublebass73]

I have a new girlfriend who I recently introduced to the shooting sports. I'm partial to straight stocks but I realize I'm in the minority. I had her try both and she prefers pistol grip so if you look in my avatar photo you'll see that the only pistol grip is hers

[Mac11700]

An English straight gripped styled stock is not the best for any type of shooting with a scoped rifle. Your hands are really out of the best anatomically position with them. The reason for  they were so prevalent for so long was because they were the easiest to produce and lent themselves better to the shot gun beads and open sights due to needing a lot of drop in the rear of the stock.. Most older Shutzen/target type rifles had some type of off hand palm device for the forearm and a additional added on brass or silver finger grip escutcheon for the firing hand to aid in giving better trigger control and for steadying the rifle for long shots by allowing the rifle to be pulled tighter to the shoulder.

As what has been said,you need to try all of the different types and see which is most comfortable for your shooting. A thumb hole style stock will allow your hand to absorb a great deal of recoil,and this can in turn allow you to shoot longer and conceivable better.The off side to this is if you have some type of condition where you can't take recoil into your wrist and hand,like corporal tunnel syndrome,or arthritis. Then a straight gripped style stock may be your only choice.

Mac  

[briannmilewis]

 !!! Lots and lots of useful info. And I understood it all!

Thanks once again to you kind folks, as is always the case, you are more than willing to help us new shooters out.

[Darreld Walton]

A pistol grip allows the hand to better control the cant of the rifle in shooting with much less muscle effort and fatigue than a straight grip stock.

[NFG]

Olympic shooter's rifles/pistols are HEAVILY, ergonomically customized mostly for low velocity, low recoil cartridges...AND for a specific way of holding...nothing like I ever used in the field hunting something to eat.  They do offer many refinements that have "crossed over".  My old target pistol/rifles stocks were UGLY beyond belief compared to a fine British shotgun or rifle, but they shot BEAUTIFUL targets.

Butt hooks, palm swells, grip shelves, specially fitted forearm grips etc., thumb shelf angled specifically to my wrist(in pistols)etc.  I really didn't grip the "pistol grip at all...just hung my thumb over the comb...contoured to my large fat thumb...and sat my hand on/in the shelf...again contoured to fit...in a rifle and slipped my hand into form fitting, ungodly shaped and looking glove fit grip in pistols...and like a good pair of gloves, it took TWO hands to get if off.   Most of that stuff is in the way for a field gun...but a well fitted pistol grip works wonders.

Nothing wrong with cant if the rifle/pistol/sights are designed for it and the shooter understands what is going on.

Each to his own

Luck

[44 Man]

For shooting at the bench, I prefer the pistol grip stocks.  But for ease of carrying, you can't beat a straight grip stock.  And since you carry a hunting gun much more than you shoot it, I'll take the straight grip stock.  I can't say I have ever bought a gun that I only expected to shoot at the bench and not take hunting.  44 Man

[Winter Hawk]

Part of it also is how you hold your arm.  I was taught, many years ago, to keep my right elbow as high as I can.  This may have been a hold over from the days of the Krag-Jorgensen and 1903 Springfield straight stock rifles, although the M1 Garand has a pistol grip so that should have changed by the time I learned to shoot.  Be that as it may, later on when I was issued an M16 I had a heck of a time getting used to it.  It just didn't feel right, my right hand was twisted when I mounted the piece.  It finally dawned on me that I had to drop the elbow, and that felt a whole lot better.  With my Winny 88 and my NEF, both pistol grip stocks, my right elbow still goes up to form a cup for the butt stock.

I guess it comes down to, as others have said, you need to try both types of grips and then decide which feels the most comfortable for your shooting style.  Not necessarily shooting when you try them, but mounting the rifle and sighting at a spot on the wall to get the feel of the gun.

-Kees-

[Daman]

I have both, shoot both, and like both. I don't want to shoot a 30-06 or bigger with straight grips due to recoil, but I am more accurate with straight grips in the field because of the way I learned to shoot. I just got my first t-hole stock on my 7-08 and I love it. It may prove to be a favorite-time will tell.

Daman

[RB1235]

Stright stock by design locks the wrist while shooting a moveing gun

This is what I figure as well. And a sling to choke up around the arm to steady. I have pistol grips, straight and have had thumb holes. Straight is the most accurate off hand or leaning on a tree for me. On a bench it doesn't matter. All are equal. I even had one of the thumb hole pistols. Never was any better for me than a pistol grip.

[necchi]

.  Not necessarily shooting when you try them, but mounting the rifle and sighting at a spot on the wall to get the feel of the gun.

Off Hand Stance, Try this;
 (presumed for right hand shooter)
 Inside if you want, pick a small object on the wall 15-30 ft away, (a light switch, the thermostat, a single number on the wall clock, a door hinge).
 Position your feet the way you think they should be while shooting. Close your eyes, now shoulder your gun and point at your "target". Without moving, open your eyes. (Don't cheat)
 Most folks will be surprised too find they are off quite a bit left or right of the target. Leave your right foot planted in it's place, and move your left foot/leg position to swing your body and shoulders to aquire your target. Repeat,,a bunch.

 This is called your Natural Point of Aim, the drill can be praticed anywhere, anytime with or without your gun, (just point at something with your finger), remember to reposition your legs/feet and not swing at the hip. Top shooters will plant their feet during a match and not move them untill the match is completed if possible. That old GI Joe stance with one leg forward and the other way back isn't conductive too great accuracy.

 Field shooting is different than match, you don't have time to aquire a stance when a Pheasant jumps, but with pratice you'll swing into it faster,,
 

[NFG]

I think the key word is "PRACTICE"...after you've been shooting different types of guns with different stocks for a while, you learn...part is feel, part is muscle memory, part is...who knows...a combination of all you've learned.

I used to shoot the 1903 straight stocked rifles, all positions, quite a bit...the club I belonged to during those times had several plus lots of cheap ammo....also I had a Fox double barreled shotgun with a straight stock.   Never had much trouble with handling the recoil of either.  I even built a 308 cal "scout" rifle back in the mid 60's...Rem action, 18", #1 contour barrel, pillar and epoxy bedded, straight stock cut down to almost nothing...the whole thing weighed about 5 lbs.  The wrist was about 1" OD, stock thinned down to almost nothing and had a recoil pad ground down as far as it would go, forearm just long enough to fit my reach comfortably and just enough wood to call it a forend and not a wooden ornament NO SLING...it handled and pointed great...just like a light 20 ga double...but kicked like a mule with 200 gr bullets...not much less with 150's.  You definitely wanted to weld your cheek to the comb and roll with the punch, otherwise you came away with a nice big black and blue smack spot.

Necchi is right about his way of practice...it also teaches trigger control, breath control...if you stand at an angle and "swing" to the target it teaches how to track smoothly...tape on some lead to add weight and it works out your shooting muscles...how to reduce your "figure 8"...no one can hold a rifle completely still, but you can learn to weave the front site in a figure 8, or a circle and reduce the size over time to where you can "time" the point the sights align and "squeeze off" a shot very quickly...in time it becomes an unconscious act...your eyes see and your finger pulls...you also see the moment the sear releases and the bullet fires...just before the recoil...in that instant you see where the bullet will hit and you can "call your shot".  When that happened to me the first time it blew me away...my shooting coach had been expounding on what he called the "magic moment" for months...I thought he was just full of ol' #7.

Every one is different, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.  A short, fat folker like me, handles his shooters and shoots much different than a tall drink of water...You have to learn the basics, then work out what is best for YOU.  No different than a golf swing, pool stroke, or where I position my truck seat.

Takes lots of practic, concentration and someone to help you when you can't figure out what is going wrong.

Luck

[gcrank1]

Lots of good info in this thread, for sure!
I guess it is really down to 'what are your intensions?'. If its a hunting gun, is it still hunting where quick handling (more like an upland smoothbore) or from a blind (which can be more like a casual bench)? Is it more for bench shooting and seeing how small the groups can be? Varminting? If it is 'all of the above' then the old caveat that 'one size dont fit all' is appropos.
Systems engineering says, 'define your objective(s), then the equipment/procedures to get there'.
Simple hey?!

[Airsporter]

Here's a simple 'test.'  Point your finger at something and look at your wrist.  It's straight and natural.  Now imagine your are holding a straight grip stock.  You have to 'cock' your wrist into an unnatural position.  Just the way it is. 

[NFG]

Oh, Man....I must be deformed or something...my wrist is cocked down about 15-20 degrees when I point like you say...my finger points up about the same if my wrist is square and perpendiculat to my arm.

I CAN'T naturally point ANY Glock...when I shut my eyes and point that pistol "naturally" then open my eyes...the ****thing is pointed way over my intended target.  My best "natural pointers" were High Standards, EXCEPT the one with the 1911 grip, the now long gone Whitney 22's, Ruger autos, SOME of the S&W auto's and ALL S&W wheel guns and Sig's(especially my 220).  With a 1911 I just envision center mass and I get your head...your zipper and I get center mass and your knees and I get you where it REALLY hurts.... LOL.

My Mod 19 S&W 357 has been stroked, rebuilt, fondled, magnaported, bobbed and re-horned, and shot so many times it don't know what it started as...I don't even have to think now...just stick it out there and pull the trigger.  Whatever I saw in my minds eye is either in the pot, gone for good or disappeared. LOL

We all are built different...Airsporter's method WILL show you how YOUR wrist is angled...for sure.

Luck

[SHOOTALL]

Simple ansewer , in the late 1800's many military bolt action and lever action rifles had stright stocks . As improvements were made or new rifles were developed it seems one improvement was a pistol grip or simi pistol grip. That has been refined more to a grip like a Thompson , folding stock carbine then AK 17 then AR type pistol grip. I suggest that chain of events was for good reason .