Author Topic: M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!  (Read 2426 times)

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Offline kjeff50cal

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« on: November 22, 2003, 06:34:29 PM »
Check this out hot off the AP wire:

 
M-16 Rifle May Be on Way Out of U.S. Army
Sat Nov 22, 3:55 PM ET  

By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - After nearly 40 years of battlefield service around the globe, the M-16 may be on its way out as the standard Army assault rifle because of flaws highlighted during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


U.S. officers in Iraq say the M-16A2 — the latest incarnation of the 5.56 mm firearm — is quietly being phased out of front-line service because it has proven too bulky for use inside the Humvees and armored vehicles that have emerged as the principal mode of conducting patrols since the end of major fighting on May 1.


The M-16, at nearly 40 inches, is widely considered too long to aim quickly within the confines of a vehicle during a firefights, when reaction time is a matter of life and death.


"It's a little too big for getting in and out of vehicles," said Brig. Gen. Martin Dempsey, commander of the 1st Armored Division, which controls Baghdad. "I can tell you that as a result of this experience, the Army will look very carefully at how it performed."


Instead of the M-16, which also is prone to jamming in Iraq's dusty environment, M-4 carbines are now widely issued to American troops.


The M-4 is essentially a shortened M-16A2, with a clipped barrel, partially retractable stock and a trigger mechanism modified to fire full-auto instead of three-shots bursts. It was first introduced as a personal defense weapon for clerks, drivers and other non-combat troops.


"Then it was adopted by the Special Forces and Rangers, mainly because of its shorter length," said Col. Kurt Fuller, a battalion commander in Iraq and an authority on firearms.


Fuller said studies showed that most of the combat in Iraq has been in urban environments and that 95 percent of all engagements have occurred at ranges shorter than 100 yards, where the M-4, at just over 30 inches long, works best.


Still, experience has shown the carbines also have deficiencies. The cut-down barrel results in lower bullet velocities, decreasing its range. It also tends to rapidly overheat and the firing system, which works under greater pressures created by the gases of detonating ammunition, puts more stress on moving parts, hurting its reliability.


Consequently, the M-4 is an unlikely candidate for the rearming of the U.S. Army. It is now viewed as an interim solution until the introduction of a more advanced design known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon, or OICW.


There is no date set for the entry into service of the OICW, but officers in Iraq say they expect its arrival sooner than previously expected because of the problems with the M-16 and the M-4.


"Iraq is the final nail in the coffin for the M-16," said a commander who asked not to be identified.


The current version of the M-16 is a far cry from the original, which troops during the Vietnam War criticized as fragile, lacking power and range, and only moderately accurate. At the time, a leading U.S. weapons expert even recommended that American soldiers discard their M-16s and arm themselves with the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle used by their Vietcong enemy.


Although the M16A1 — introduced in the early 1980s — has been heavily modernized, experts say it still isn't as reliable as the AK-47 or its younger cousin, the AK-74. Both are said to have better "knockdown" power and can take more of a beating on the battlefield.
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Offline Robert357

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2003, 09:02:01 AM »
Wow, that is truly a stunning article.  I am surprised an Army offical (even if unnamed) would be quoted as saying such things unless he was really looking forward to retirement.  

Thanks for sharing, but I must view stories from newspapers with a degree of disbelief.  Time will tell.

Offline colt451911

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2003, 10:33:17 AM »
would be nice if they replaced the m-16/m-4 with something in a larger caliber than .223.

Offline lgm270

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2003, 06:28:00 AM »
I used to sneer at deer hunters who picked their rifle based on how easy it was to get it in and out of a vehicle.   Now the military is picking infantry weapons on the same basis?

Offline NRAJOE

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2003, 07:28:41 AM »
AK's for everyone!  :eek:  :)
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Offline Robert

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lgm Humans act different than deer when shot
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2003, 08:23:49 AM »
Apples and Oranges
....make it count

Offline Rogue Ram

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2003, 05:39:32 PM »
The M16 appears to be on its way out.  There is a website (I'll post the link if I can find it) out there that tracks all govt orders for equipment. Y'all would faint at what is being ordered by the military! One of the interesting things was 12,000 M14 magazines...........the other was a solicitation for a bid for a semi auto 7.62 rifle---the description of which appeared to be written specifically for the M14 using a new stock that is out there that has rails to mount accesories. Combine that with the fact that "rumor" has it the depots are issuing every M14 they can find, and its obvious the M16 is in trouble.

I heard a new rifle is in the works, the M14s are taking up the slack, and the new caliber will be something like a 6.5 mm.

I'll post that link back here when I find it again..........trust me, it will get your attention.

RR

Offline kjeff50cal

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2003, 06:30:54 PM »
Quote
I used to sneer at deer hunters who picked their rifle based on how easy it was to get it in and out of a vehicle. Now the military is picking infantry weapons on the same basis?


lgm,
The above mentioned deer hunters were not being shot at and/or trying dodge a RPG aimed at their collective posteriors. To be fair today's millitary is for good or bad, not based on the foot solder but on the vehicle (ie. the HumVee, Striker, Blackhawk....). And because we seem to be the Earth's law enforcers we are in a similar position as the the LA cops during an infamous bank shoot out. Out gunned again.....
Ignorance leads us into the darkness, Knowlege leads us out.

Offline jgalar

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2003, 07:04:15 AM »
I have always thought the Swedish round had the best comprimise between power, range, and recoil of all the military rounds. How would you all feel about the 6.5x55 as the next us round?

Offline Mikey

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6.5 Swede as the next US round?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2003, 04:17:55 AM »
Jgalar - that is an excellent idea but, the Remington 260 might be a better choice due to its overall length being more compatible with the M14 configuration or a re-configured Stoner in that caliber.  There used to be the AR-10, which was an M16 in 308 but I don't know how it held up to the 7.62x51 round.  The M14 action however is based on the 308/30-06 (M1 Garand) and should handle the .260 or the 6.5 Grendel very well.  This, however, is just my opinion, but it should start a good conversation.  

In addition, I just don't understand why the M16 has to be so complicated and think that, in addition to the questionable performance of the 5.56 round, raises the question as to whether this is the best rifle/ammo combination we can arm our troops with.  Mikey.

Offline azshooter

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2003, 04:37:43 AM »
The gun has been under development for quite some time.  I just wonder how these $10,000 wonder guns will be better than the M-16 in the same conditions.  It is still a 5.56 for the primary but has a 20MM smart grenade launcher.

http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm

Offline Rogue Ram

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2003, 06:40:38 PM »
The wonder gun has been on the Discovery Channel---pretty darn cool.  However, what I'm hearing is that isn't the weapon that will be the standard issue.  I'll ask around and find that site I referred to next week---its on my computer at work.  Its nice to see someone is finally taking notice of the problem after all this time. My hat is off to whomever is pushing this.

RR

Offline bryan

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2003, 06:36:35 PM »
If this wonder gun is the same one I saw on discovery ch., it looked to be very bulky for for a grunt to carry or even someone to be shooting out of a Humvee! Plus with these weapons having the "smart grenade launchers" that is just that much more the ammo the troops will have to carry with them. Bryan

Offline colt451911

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2003, 10:08:32 AM »
Lets assume for a moment that that gun doesn't weigh as much as a school bus (im guessing that its close), that thing looks enormous, how will anyone be able to handle that in a tight place like a humvee?  And at $10,000 it is anything but a bargain.  Interesting concept but looks to me like it has a long way to go before being an viable combat weapon.

Offline Tony

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2003, 05:43:30 PM »
Just thought I would let you guys know that the ARmy has been using the M-4 for a while now. Some models have full auto, while other still have the 3 round burst. The one I used had the 3 round burst. Like the M16A2 there are different configurations of the M-4. Also alot of infantry troops carry the M-4 as well as military police.

Tony
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Offline 1911crazy

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2003, 02:39:09 AM »
The M14's down fall was in full auto mode most couldn't handle it because of the barrel rise.  I couldn't keep it down when I fired it too in full auto.  I still like the gun(M14) its a smooth shooter too.  A new caliber would have to be either a 6.5mm or 7mm but a shorter case like the new magnum rifle bullets they just came out with.  Bring back the M1 Garand design with 10rds instead of 8rd clip it was the best for quick/fastest loading gun for war I have ever seen.  The bottomline is our military deserves the best we can provide for them.                                         BigBill

Offline eroyd

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2003, 08:40:44 AM »
I'm sure the US is considering heading in the Bullpup direction. It's  the only way you can have a compact rifle that still maintains a decent barrel length. The Brits have the SA80, the French have the Giat FAMAS and even the Chinese have a Type 95. No doubt they all have their bugs when tested under battlefield conditions but so did (does) the M16.


http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/riflelt.htm#famas

Offline tripper

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2003, 05:46:32 AM »
I carried the M14, M16, and 870 in the jungles of Nam. The m16 was built to put out a lot of fire power in a short peroid of time, 20 rds. in under 10sec.,if it didn't jam. Often you did not see the enemy you just fired on the sound of their ak's . Hence not a good idea to  pick one up and use it if you didn't have to. Just my thoughts but I think the m16 is built with to close of tolerances, for the conditions it is used under, that will not tolerate dirt in the gun or on the amo. I to feel the cal. is to small. I know the idea is to maim and not kill but it wuold be nice to knock them down.The m14. Heavy, bulky, and hard to carry enough ammo, but every time I pulled the trigger it went bang and stopped what it hit.
The 870, again carrying enough ammo was hard,and it's slow to reload but it fired every time and basicly put nine 223 rounds in the brush with each shot.
  It seems to me the thing is to come up with a round that will hold good vel. in say a 18 inch barrel as well as a 12inch barrel. of a cal. that is worth carrying. Then build a weapon around it that has tolerrances to allow some dirt in it.
be safe and god bless
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Offline eroyd

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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2003, 02:45:25 PM »
Not to get too of topic , but I have never heard that it is better to wound an enemy soldier than to kill one while I was in the military. I was trained to always shoot for centre of mass, meaning almost certain death to the enemy if I did my job. Yes, a wounded soldier requires more care  logistically at the momment but overall, sending someone's son, daughter, father, husband home in a bag is much more demoralizing to the overall war effort. The only difference in combat shooting is that any hit is better than no hit at all.

Designing a new cartridge for military applications requires countless considerations, some obvious like, power, reliability and physical weight, but others less obvious like barrel longevity,manufacturing logistics and expense. I would think something between the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51, perhaps an existing cartridge like the 6mm SAW or the 280 Brit.

Offline X-man

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2004, 09:25:44 AM »
I've read that the military is looking at a 6.8mm proprietary round and plan on having new barrels and uppers manufactured/modified to simply switch out the old 5.56 uppers for the new 6.8mm. I don't see them going out and buying AUGs, etc...I've never been a fan of bullpup rifles. The Brit SA80 is junk. They have spent a fortune trying to fix a crappy design. My buddies in the Royal Marines would categorically rather be carrying M-16 variants, better yet our Canadian made C-7. I think if they looked at developing more effective projectiles for the 5.56mm round they'd be money in. Overpenetration and minimal expansion has been a problem in Afghanistan and Iraq and has contributed to some complaints about the 5.56mm's effectiveness - but given that it is pretty easy to miss while under fire, some of those "complaints" may not be justified. The shorty barrels on the M-4 is undoubtably having an impact on MV as well, especially at long ranges. I think that if soldiers are having problems getting out of Hummvees with their M16A2s, they should practice more. At least that's my opinion...of course, as Denis Miller is wont to say...I could be wrong! :lol:
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Offline 1911crazy

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2004, 02:37:12 AM »
Why can't a military gun be designed right to work in all weather conditions?  Like the AK?  Just copy the AK? No in the end we will also just change the top end of the m16 to save $$??? Besides the wonder gun watch and see we will have the same POS the slammer/jammer?? Make it load quick like the garand?  Whats more important accuracy and knockdown power or firepower??  One shot one kill or spray and pray you hit something?  The new caliber has to have range and accuracy and knockdown power too.  Keep it simple no high tech crap that can fail too easy like "got batteries" in a war that would sound great??  More computerized junk you have to be a PHD to operate?                                                  BigBill

When politics steps in our guys lose lives they need the best we can provide for them.  During the vietnam war I can remember hearing that  personal weapons were sent to our guys like their shotguns because of the failures of the M16.

Offline pathfinder

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2004, 04:04:43 AM »
Watching the POW interviews  (on Dateline I think) I was shocked to hear that they all had malfunctions with their rifles.  Even Miller, who claimed and was decorated for killing several iraqi soldiers before his capture said he had to cycle his weapon one round at a time.

Offline El Confederado

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2004, 08:59:16 PM »
Well boys, all I can say is great. I packed one for 4 years and hated the thing every time I had to use it, I liked the M-14 much better, but some folks( women , small framed men) couldn't pack a 14 for 2 miles never mind hump it in a hot zone for days on end.I dont know what we are going to replace the old 16 with, but one thing is for sure, I promise it will be just as crappy as the 16, y'all that served know how that works, the Army nevr buys the best weapon, just the best one for the money and then has them made by the lowest bidder.I say we started down hill when we got rid of the M1 and M14, just my 2 cents.
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Offline Jack Crevalle

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2004, 01:03:02 AM »
Quote from: El Confederado
, but one thing is for sure, I promise it will be just as crappy as the 16, y'all that served know how that works, the Army nevr buys the best weapon, just the best one for the money and then has them made by the lowest bidder.I say we started down hill when we got rid of the M1 and M14, just my 2 cents.


I think it was Robert Strange McNamara ( motto: let's run a war like Ford Motor Co. ) who forced the universal adoption of the M16. Among his other accomplishments. Soldiers counting the number of rounds they fired, etc.

Offline 1911crazy

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2004, 04:02:03 AM »
I have say when I got my first sks and while cleaning it and inspecting it I said does this thing really work?  It kind of crudely made, loose fitting parts, machine marks still on the parts too??  I never thought it would work so flawlessly??  But they do and while the history of the sks is short lived and over shadowed by the AK all this cheaply well designed stuff does work.  So why can't we design something this dependable?
                                                                               BigBill

Offline Dragon31

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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2004, 04:29:36 AM »
Pre '64 Military Assistance Group (MAG Forces) were issued M-1 and M-2 carbines.  These were short, light, fast handle little weapons that worked well when clean and sitting in a gun rack.  In the bush the .30 cal carbine round was capable of taking care of businese as long as the OPFOR were small, had no body armor (they didn't) and the range was less than 100 or so yards (it was).  A modern version of the carbine round slightly longer necked down to 6.5 or 7 mm traveling at 2,500 feet per second would still allow easy movement in crew served weapons and allow for the real leg soldiers a light weight round that could be packed long distance.

Offline Mikey

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Necked down 30 carbine round
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2004, 08:03:29 AM »
Dragon31 - wasn't that the 5.7mm Johnson - just a 30 carbine case necked to 5.7mm.  Not really a combat round, I wouldn't think but given your parameters of being slightly longer and not necked so far it would be a good choice I think.............Mikey.

Offline X-man

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2004, 10:19:45 AM »
I don't know where all the nostalgia for the M-1 carbine is coming from? Sure, it is fun to shoot, but you have to remember, when it was adopted, it was never intended to function as a front-line weapon. Rather, it was supposed to serve as a replacement for the 1911A1 .45 pistol. The Army did a study and found that many personnel issued the pistol, like artillery, armored personnel, drivers, etc... were terrible shots! It takes hundreds of rounds and hours of practice to become really competent with the .45, especially with the military issue's tiny fixed sighting system. The M-1 was intended to serve as a replacement for the pistol in a self-defence role,  since it could be handled, used and fired the same as any rifle...just shorter and lighter. It is much easier to become a competent rifle shot, than handgunner.

The .30 carbine round essentially gives the same performance as a hot .38 pistol round. Accuracy isn't stellar, with most M-1 barerly shooting 6-8" groups at 100 yards. Their combat record as a man stopper is similarly lacking using  ball ammo. If expanding bullets had been authorized, there would have been a dramatic improvement in the weapon's effectiveness. That didn't happen.

The M-16 got a bad rap, because of two idiotic decisions made at the Pentagon's highest levels. First, they changed the propellent used in thed 5.56 round to a very dirty burning ball propellent, which caused excessive fouling, whereas the original propellant functioned far better, without excessive cleaning. Secondly, the M-16 was rushed into service, without necessary cleaning kits, while the troops were told that the rifles didn't require regular maintenace and cleaning. Being the 60s and the flower power generation, who was going to argue that yes they wanted to spend more time cleaning their weapons?

Anyone who has seen combat knows that your weapon is your life! You take care of it, before you take care of yourself. So, stupidity and laziness, compounded by climatic conditions, i.e., super-humid jungle environment, all contributed to neglected weapons that had to jam! And thus the M-16 earned an underserved reputation as an unreliable piece of junk. Its performance since Vietnam has proven that it is a good weapon system.

Sure its not perfect, but it is the best compromise we now have. Look at the M4. You wanted a short, light and handy weapon for Special Ops guys to use in CT/CQB/Urban Assault type missions that normally take place at ranges under 100 yards and/or second line support troops who need a weapon for self-defense that is handy to carry and won't interfere with their primary tasking too much -- so 4-5" of barrel was hacked off and the butt stock shortened giving you your handy weapon, but causing a reduction in muzzle velocity due to the shortened barrel. Then you are faced with the same problem the M-1 had to deal with. Using a poorly designed projectile that was better suited to penetrating hard objects than expanding and/or transferring kinetic energy to soft targets - at the same time being designed to work at the substantially higher velocities that only the original 20" barrel provided and not the newly shortened barrel. You can't have it both ways, something has to give. So why, again, are people surprised when some nut-case Iraqi feydayeen doesn't drop with a single shot at 300 yards from an M-4???

The M-14 was a great semi-automatic battle rifle, but it was heavy, you couldn't carry as many rounds and it wasn't worth crap firing full auto. If troops are complaining that their current M-16 with 20" bbl and 7lb weight is too big and bulky to get in and out of a Humvee with, how much bitching would they do having to hump all that wood and steel? What about our "genderless" military? How far is some 18 year old, former cheerleader who weighs all of 98 lbs, soaking wet, and is fresh out of high school, going to get with a '14??? How soon would the discrimination suits begin to be filed by female personnel and small framed males?
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Offline Dragon31

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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2004, 03:24:48 PM »
I'm in kind of a unique situation I started my military career in 1961 and ended it in Feb of 2003 (mandatory retirement age).  During that time I did both active duty, reserve and National Guard Duty (all army).  Over the years I watched a lot of changes. It started with the M-1 Garand being replaced with the M-14, Berlin of '61, SETAF in '62, in early '64 the South Vietnamize troops were equipted with M-1 Garand and M-1 carbines,  The trainers usually carried m-1 carbines since we were considered non combatants at the time.  My only objection was that it did not always go bang when I needed it to.  The killing power of the round was OK (it was not a .38, I've used both for real) when used against small bodied individuals with no body armor, it was less that stellar against fortified positions.  The US troops in Berlin were some of the first troops to get the M-14 in Oct/Nov '61.  That's when they were building "The" wall and folks where getting whacked every day as they tried to make it into our sector.  The M-14 provided the fire power to get into a building and go from room to room without ever going out in the hallway, we made doors in the walls, then proceeded to the next room.  I never mastered full auto in the M-14.
As for as females in the Army.  The last two I worked with were excellant.  Admittedly I have been on Divsion and Corp Battle Staff for the last 12 years and we pick the best.  Both my clerk and my boss could out run most of the guys at HHC and I saw to it they shot perfect score on their weapons Qualification.  They as well as every one else in my section held graduate degrees from major Universities my boss is an assistance professor at one of these universities.  Besides that they are dammed good looking ladies (ask their husbands).  My only gripe is that the APFT test should be the same for men and woman, I think it is degrading to the women to have a lower standard.  If my butt were against the wall I know both of these individual would be there with me.  Don't get me wrong, the failure rate for females is the same as for men and I've had both good and bad experiences with both.

Offline RaySendero

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M16 maybe replaced as US Millitary Rifle!!!
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2004, 02:03:09 PM »
I've also read where the army is testing a 6.8x43 cartridge.
    Ray