Stresses on a Handi frame.

[Spanky]

We have a member with real life actual numbers as to what these frames can stand and it's being held secret.




Spanky

[necchi]

 Interesting exercise, the disscusion has/does help one understand,or at least think about the physics applied with our guns. And the more we understand, the better we can use these in a safe yet accurate manner. The OP must have been thinking about these great big straight wall round topics that have been posted lately.

 After all of it, I think Larry has been correct with his first surmise, it makes sence. The worst issues affecting the hinge would be barrel whip, high pressure bottle neck rounds, (also poor sizing choices) poor fit and simple neglect by the owner.

 One question, What is and how does the term "Water Table" apply too chamber, breech and cartridge? 

Spanky;
 If the real life actual #'s where published, the problem is, one of us poor saps out there is/would be prone to push it just because "so-n-so said",, or "I read that,,,". "Hold my beer,,Watch this,,"
  I guess I'm silly, I've always been content with accuracy and never had a real need for Max anything

[quickdtoo]

Here's one test a member on another forum did with a 45-70 Handi and 405gr bullets, I won't list the powder he used and all pressures are software predicted, so take it for what it's worth. While pop opens on an ejector gun are scary, they aren't dangerous except for the flying brass which is normal on an ejector gun when the action opens, intentionally or not, moot point on an extractor barrel, by the time the barrel opens, the bullet is long gone and there's no pressure in the bore. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

Tim


shot 0) 15 gr, 24,700 psi, 1271 fps, no shot fired, listed for Quickload reference point only
shot 1) 18 gr, 33,217psi, 1403 fps, primer looks fine.
shot 2) 20 gr, 39,435 psi, 1485 fps, primer is fine
shot 3) 22 gr, 46,133 psi, 1563 fps, primer looks flat.
shot 4) 24 gr, 53,334 psi, 1637 fps, primer is flat.
shot 5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing,
action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 6) 28 gr, 69,366 psi, 1778 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, case head expansion .001", action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 7) 30 gr, 78275 psi, 1846 fsp, case head expansion .0015" action popped open and case ejected on firing, some leading in the muzzle.
shot 32 gr, 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010"

There was no change in headspace, but I had to stop the work up because of case head separation where the case head flowed into the extractor.

[NFG]

That's very interesting information, Tim...I've run a lot of software predictions on various calibers on my Load from a Disk and Powley comnputer programs...but I pretty much stop short of testing beyond SAAMI standards or when pressure indicators get into that "iffy" region.

I'm guessing the member might be trying to blow up a receiver and using a fast burning powder as the velocity and pressures and powder amounts are way out of line for a "normal" 405 gr bullet load.  I've found that head expansion is only a good indicator "before" you reach the ID of the chamber...once that happens the brass usually, but not always, has gone beyond elastic limits and doesn't "bounce back"...at 61Kpsi the brass, depending on the brand, hardness, composition, etc., I'm guessing was basically munched.  But lots of things are happening in this presentation I wonder about...is he talking about using ONE case for all the shots or a new case each shot...or what?  Could you post the forum if possible, I would like to get a bit more information.  Thanks.

BB...study the picture of the T/C blow-up...that gives one very vivid picture of a worse case scenario...then let you imagination go to the extreme for more...  

Confined pressure that gets away the WRONG way is what causes dangerous conditions.  If you've ever seen the results of an oxygen and nitrogen cylinders rupturing and dumping 2000-4000 cubic feet of gas each into a confined space and not finding anything but tiny pieces and parts of the people who were supposed to be there, don't...it's very hard to get your mind wrapped around that scene.

As I mentioned somewhere, I thought about inserting a larger hinge pin but never got around to it...one thing I've learned in my travels...having a weak link that is easy to get to and repair usually results in saving the more expensive pieces and parts...blowing out a U-joint instead of a tranny or rear end is a good example.  I think that a larger pin would do much better at supporting the lug or a design such as the T/C might be a stronger design, but I'm not a design engineer so I bough to those who are.

A redesign that incorporates the best parts of BOTH systems...larger dia hinge pin, full circle like the T/C, larger barrel OD like the NEF, slightly larger and thicker frame rails...etc...but then the cost effectiveness of the present NEF would be lost and that would cause flies on the pie and ants in the cake, I think.

Tim's example also points up a fact that has been missing in this discussion...I mentioned it in passing...that of the strength of the barrel...the fact that Tim reached such a high pressure is a prime example that a system is a SYSTEM and you can't isolate just one piece.  The Tube formulas I use to calculate barrel chamber pressures indicate there is at least a 1.5 safety margin even in the thinnest chamber walls at pressures WELL above anything you find in reloading books.

There is also the fact of brass strength which seems to be missing except reading between the lines...the brass case itself carries some part of the load.  Weatherby brass is rated well above 62KPSI, and I'm guessing that 500 S&W is also very strong....brass holds against the chamber at different points depending on the thickness of the walls...I have a couple of large calibers that even when maxed out the lower quarter of the case NEVER gets expanded...this is in a bolt gun for test loads during load workup where I stopped at the polint where the bolt was locking up.  You can only go so far before the results become meaningless.  What goo is a cannon you can only shoot once then have to throw away because thew action is welded shut.

A large part of "generalized" discussions always miss the specifics, but are taken as gospel by many who don't fully understand.  I keep saying this but is seems to be lost on many.

As Mac said the 9" burn length is for a specific powder and load in a specific shooter OR a generalized example...is, as I keep saying< ...a BIG problem... once ANY information hits the web it IS cast in stone and SOEMONE will take it that way, no matter what the subsequent explanation is...as anyone can tell you when doing a search.  I've come across some of my input on seaches and was totally blown away as what I was searching for had nothing to do with what the search engine brought up.  This is the WORLD wide web and I keep forgetting.

Bullseye bowder was designed to burn in appox 2" of barrel for pistol target loads...slow burning powders such as 5010 take much longer to burn and require much longer barrels...burn times are in milliseconds, but to determine how many milliseconds and what is the length requires a bit of mental mathematical legerdemain.

For someone who has been doing this for a long time or is a Ballistician, this evaluation process is ongoing.  They have a learned, ingrained mental picture of what is going on and what is happening, that processes all the information they've learned and is constantly evaluating as they work through a problem or project...or answers a question an the net.  Many/most times this process goes on without conscious thought...plus the fact tha NONE of what we are discussing now is really a simple "do this and this happens because this ONE thing did it".

As Necci said...I paraphrase...a little knowledge is a VERY dangerous thing to have, especially for some people.

I think the members information about the strength of the frame should REMAIN SECRET...but I would like to know HOW he developed the information...what, where, how he measured the pressure...was it just a destructive blow-up test or did he test the individual parts independently of each other and so forth.

I've been involved with several destructive tests on mauser military actions that have given me some insights, but without any pressure testing system attached so the information was limited for that purpose...they did show where some of the weak points were, but also just how strong even the older two lug receivers are.

This thread has some very interesting and thought provoking input...I for one thank all those that brought up questions and information.   Anytime I answer or comment on a question the information I posit is also a question and I always hope for more input, pro or con, agree or disagree...just like the robot in "5 is Alive".  hahahahahah

Luck

[quickdtoo]

That member has been banned from at least one site that I know of for doing crazy things like that, so I won't post any links to his posts that still exist on the net. My only point was the Handi frame has built in failsafes to prevent catastrophic failures in the event of someone's carelessness, either from over pressure or barrel obstructions. On the brass rod incident I suspect a steel trigger guard may have had a very different result. 

Tim

[bikerbeans]

You guys are making me nervous.  I just ordered a case of Trail Boss for all subsequent reloading.  Yeah Right! 

[NFG]

A very good idea,Tim...I have a very high level of curiosity AND a very high sense of self preservation.

Sometimes "Improvements" are not what they seem to be at first blush...fortunately or unfortunately you never know which until way too late.

BB as long as you practice safe reloading practices, don't try "stuff" you find on the floor and don't experiment until you have a good working knowledge of pretty much ALL the parameters, you have at least a  95% probability of not getting in the "stuff"...it is NEVER 100%...strange things always happen...I'm still wondering about things that happened to me that SHOULN'T have and other things that SHOULD have and didn't.  Go figure.

It;s ALL FUN, for the most part.

Luck

[dpe.ahoy]

One hell of a read, gentlemen.  I know I didn't understand a lot of it, but sure learned enough to know I don't understand a lot of it.   DP  ( That statement makes as much sense as the thread.)

[canon6]

What DP said        One of my first Handi's was a 22 Hornet. I loved that little rifle. She would tell you(by not ejecting) that this load is to much you dummie.I never forgot it    IMHO a  damn fine system.    Doug

[v8r]

You have to ask yourself after a while " Is this little more velocity really going to kill the animal I am hunting any more dead?".Seems sort of shall we say......Stupid. This is the reason why we have warning labels on everything, because someone has done it. We have bred all common sense out of humanity.I know the discussion is about how much a Handi frame can handle, but why would someone want to potentially harm themselves severely?

[GrassLakeRon]

Tim,

    Have you proofed the Barnes data for the 45-70 ruger#1 in the handi for 400 grain to 2150 fps?


Ron

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Being one who finds some of these discussions just a bit over my knowledge level, I find having visual aids to be a great help.
This link to Hornady's Internal Ballistics explains some of the actual chain of events, as mentioned in parts of this thread, which occur when your ammo is fired and there are pictures to help illustrate.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal

Bill

 

[Mac11700]

We have a member with real life actual numbers as to what these frames can stand and it's being held secret.
Spanky

Yes..and what data I was given was given in confidence.I'm not one to break that confidence,even if that person is no longer with the company.That's just the way I am...sorry.

I think the members information about the strength of the frame should REMAIN SECRET...but I would like to know HOW he developed the information...what, where, how he measured the pressure...was it just a destructive blow-up test or did he test the individual parts independently of each other and so forth.
Luck

It had been done at the factory.I am not sure when exactly since I didn't specifically ask,but it was given to me shortly prior to public mention of the ill fated "Magnum Series "  development. They knew/know full well what the limitations are on the SB1 and SB2 frames and barrels at that time.They tested them to their limits and beyond.s I am quite sure some destructive testing was involved in the process,because of the liability of the upcoming new series they were wanting to develop.

Mac, Tim and others,

So i get this right I will try and summarize what I have read that seems important to me.  The most probable failure from shooting high pressure loads in a H&R single shot is with the locking mechanism, either a pop open or maybe something a little more extreme.  Repeated high pressure loads may (can?) result in failure of the latch system.  

My question is what is the worst case scenario for a latch system failure?  An empty brass being propelled rearward into the shooter?  Brass rupturing and spewing hot gases & brass particules into the shooter? Something else?

I guess the last question is which GBO member is going to design/build the Magnum Handi latch system?

thanks, as always I enjoy reading and learning from the GBO membership.

BB

All I can say to this is...Do you know Mr.Murphy ? He left us with a very good analogy in cases like this..." Anything that can go wrong...will go wrong at the worst possible time "

There is no way of saying what be the result with a overloaded cases rupturing...No 2 will ever be the same,since there is no way of saying which part will or will not fail.,or in what sequence.

The best rule is stay within the working limits of the case you are working with. Use reliable verifiable loading data,and a great big dose of good old common sense. These little rifles of ours are a good working platform to build on. The can take a lot more than what is offered as factory calibers to a point...and that is the problem.Many here figure they case push the envelope way past common sense dictates.They feel that they know better and can push these rifles to the extreme because they have been extremely lucky in doing so.The gentleman who published that 45-70 data Quick posted is just 1 who has done this.These rifles are not Sturm Ruger's...nor or they Thompson Encores..or even CVA offerings...and some need to remember this salient fact. While many Handi's can be pushed harder than normal factory standards..doing so goes with certain risks involved,and one should never assume because someone else has done so makes it safe for them to embark on a similar journey..with similar results. Mr.Murphy is a real jerk at times...and his first name is Dick. Just remember this.

Mac

[gcrank1]

This is exactly the kind of gentlemanly dialogue that makes this a quality site!
Thanx to all who have been willing to 'put their heads on the block'.

[quickdtoo]

Tim,

    Have you proofed the Barnes data for the 45-70 ruger#1 in the handi for 400 grain to 2150 fps?


Ron

No, I've only used the 300gr TSX-FB data, and I only loaded up to 55gr since I had to load to a slightly shorter COL than their data listed, their max is 57.5gr H4198, my best accuracy was at 53.5-54gr, 55gr opened the group up to just over an inch at 100yds.

Tim

[Mac11700]

I'm going to ramble a little bit here..so forgive me for this,but I need to give some further clarification to my previous post.

While I believe our little Handi rifles are a good working platform for many different calibers no longer offered by the factory,and even many that have never been offered,I have seen some that I would never attempt to do,nor would I ever recommend to anyone to build.

There have been many individuals in their zest to have the biggest baddest Handi attempted to turn these rifles into a class of rifles like  " Elephant Guns " or some type of Magnum rifle,in doing so,they are doing many here a great disservice.They are giving the casual reader here the thought that these rifles are more than capable of being able to safely handle pressures that far exceed their recommended levels.

These rifles,while stronger than some,are far weaker than others,and it is just not in their locking mechanism I am referring to. Yes..they can withstand up to 65kpsi of a 270 Winchester class cartridge and even that of the 500 Smith & Wesson class cartridge,but no where has it ever been stated they are capable of withstanding the pressures of a Ruger #1 or # 3 or that of a Remington bolt action rifle. Yet...some have suggested that they can indeed do this,and that the factory just doesn't want the liability for such loadings in these rifles.. Nothing further from the truth has ever been suggested as this.

While some question the actual breaking point of the rifle,it goes with out saying that if this data was ever released some would attempt to push past this data and cause injury to the rifle or individual by posting about it.Even without any concrete data..some have attempted to do this anyway.

There will always be people who want the biggest,fastest,flattest shooting Handi rifle...always. I myself have pushed the limits on occasion,but it was with a very slow and detailed approach to doing this. Anytime I went above published loading data,I did so very carefully,knowing full well what I was attempting to do,and in all cases discussing this with either the factory or manufacture of the components or both before attempting it. Many here don't follow this approach...they assume since one load was safe in one rifle..it naturally should be safe in the one they are loading for at that time. This is a very dangerous and flawed approach to reloading. No 2 Handi rifles are the same..I'll repeat this..NO 2 Handi RIFLES ARE THE SAME...I have had some give exceedingly higher and lower velocities from the same make on numerous occasions..This is proof positive of my statement in bold to me..and hopefully others.

What does all of this mean..it means as a reloader,experimenter,tinkerer of Handi's...We all  must use caution and never assume anything. Personally...I  eye with grave suspicion any time data is extrapolated from any means be it Quick Loads or any other program available to me. It is a numbers game in which averages have been taken and calculated to give a average result with a given set of imputed numbers. It is assuming everything about the rifle and cartridge is spec'd to those given numbers and can not ever give actual results. They can be at times very close if everything is spec'd to those numbers,but when taken as concrete facts it is just wrong to do so. Why...simple..no 2 Handi's are exactly the same just as lot to lot variations of all components produced is different. Don't misunderstand..I feel they are very useful tools to the Hand loader..indispensable at times..but never the less tools that are assuming everything...and common sense should tell you nothing is exactly the same every time. That is the problem as I see it..folks are assuming..and we all know what happens from time to time when we assume anything..don't we..

I have to say something else..I love these little rifles..I always have.I know some can do better than others velocity wise and accuracy wise,which is why I always strive to see what limitations with each I own give me. I do this for my own information so I know what the rifle is capable of so when I either go hunting or to the bench,so I can shoot to the best of my ability and not worry about the the rifle/load and concentrate on my shooting technique. My methods work for me,which is why I have always said these rifles are more than enough to compete in any Sportsman class competition if a person is willing to put enough into theirs to do so. There are many others who disagree with how I do things..To them these rifles are only capable of " Minute of Deer " ..To them they could care less if it shoots groups in the .2's just as long as it will hit what they are aiming at. I say " To Each His Own " and accept their view point of them.It's up to each individual what path they choose to go down..To either..I simply say use a common sense approach and don't assume if it works for someone else it is safe in your rifle..If people want to experiment..or build a Handi Elephant gun..that is their right to do so..but understand what they are doing is not something that the factory or myself have every said was safe..

My common sense approach is..If I want a Elephant gun..go buy one of the proven designs that will work every time I pull the trigger..If I want a Magnum class rifle..Go buy one of the proven designs that will guarantee it will work safely every time I pull the trigger.If I load above factory limits in my Handi..do so cautiously and in very small increments watching for every know pressure sign and use a chronograph to help verify my results. Call and speak to the component manufactures and utilize their respected technicians advice..This is just common sense to me..and hopefully to some others

Sorry for the rant

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Mac, well stated. 

Tim

[bikerbeans]

Mac,

Did not read as a rant to me, but a well thought out statement of your position regarding the Handi. 

Thanks

BB

[S.E.Ak]

Not a rant,just common sence. For Buffalo Bore power in 45/70 my Ruger#3 gets to go. For camping and walking in the woods where the big three loaders make 45/70 the H&R goes

[Mac11700]

The amazing thing to me is that every body has a different approach to these rifles. I've been around them for the majority of my life,and it never ceases to amaze me how many different opinions on them that folks have.Many of my friends and co-workers have or have had most of the various models that have been offered at one time or another. Many have never shot more than factory loads out of them,and when they found out that I have had a lot of experience with them have asked some strange questions about the rifles capabilities because of what someone had told them about them or what they have read on some web site. Some of this has been out right BS..and some had been because of a complete misunderstanding of the rifle in general. Quite honestly it's no wonder than many people hold these little rifles in such low regard with some of the things being circulated about them. I've seen some of this even posted here on this forum when folks suggest that they are better off to spend their money on a bolt gun than on a particular model of a Handi. I understand all about perception and value for ones money..and also about out of the box accuracy better than many of my friends and co-workers. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay,and you get out of it for what you put into it style of approach,and see the beyond just the initial monetary cost of of these rifles for what they can be made into for the least amount of effort and cash as well.Others do too,and is why they use them for a platform for some of these behemoths that are showing up which such frequency.

While I am no blind fan boy of these rifles..I am never the less a big fan of them. I just want folks to understand that there is a lot that can be done safely with these rifles as long as they don't have their heads buried somewhere.

Mac

[NFG]

Excellent observations as usual, Mac...I see some of the questions/posts/links as "intellectual debates", an effort, on my part, to extract as much usable information as possible from the people that are well versed in whatever is being discussed without getting those without that level of "expertise"  banged up in the process.  As I said, I have a very high level of curiosity, "expertise"/knowledge and experience AND a very high level of self preservation...I try to instill this to all in my posts without constantly adding all the wiggle words.  It is difficult to do.

"Magnumitis" is a very common ailment among men whenever the get ahold of something they can "massage", be it a gun, truck, boat or special food dish...it doesn't really matter.

For those wishing to jack it to the limits...a very simple formula should be kept in mind..."Reducing the pressure 10% only results in a 5% loss in velocity, usually a 100% increase in accuracy...and I will add...a probable (1000%, (hyperbole))  increase in life expectancy for the rifle AND shooter.  This pressure/velocity ratio is from Powley's early booklet with his velocity/pressure cardboard "calculators"...for DuPont powders at least. 

Accuracy depends on many factors but many times the best accuracy is up near the very top of loading manual max loads...hardly EVER beyond those limits except on specifically built, close tolerance target/benchrest guns.  Sometime those guns get only ONE load per case as the load pressure is beyond the brass elasticity limits as the case is basically toasted at the time of firing

Experimentation is the basis for progress, good or bad...and without experimentation and mistakes we wouldn't learn or have the good things we have today.  The problem is when the experimenters don't have a full understanding of the elements or don't advance in small steps or understand just how to setup the experiment to gain the most information.  There will ALWAYS be people without ANY horse sense, and they get taken care of just like Darwin postulated.  That member who likes to walk on the REALLY wild side will, in time, provide very valuable information to those who can learn from example...To put it succinctly as on old friend used to, "if you're dumb as dirt, you need to be swept of the floor and out the door".  I tend to have that attitude also.  Everyone should have a few chances to get it right, but after that....and there will ALWAYS be controversy even in the most simple and basic aspects of this sport...reloading and load development.

All we can do is try to show how to do "our thing" safely.  Those that have some some level of self preservation will do OK and those that don't are perfect examples of what NOT to do...we have to have good/bad as examples for bad/good.

SAAMI specs are there for a reason...the specs cover just about everything in gun and component manufacture from powder, brass, bullets to tolerance ranges for dies, reamers, chamers...from "soup to nuts" in old GSA parlance.  They're are NOT maximum limits...they are SAFE limits.

Once you get past the rought look of the Handi and over the low cost/low value "stuff", anyone with a lick of sense(no diss intended) can see the excellent value for low cost experimentation...at many levels, NOT just how high a pressure you can load it to without total destruction.

I have a "stub barrel" frame/stock set up for barrel swapping experiments...lead weighted...several extractors for different case head sizes and a forend set up for 1.00" cylinder barrels.  For me is is just saving the money for a barrel, reamer(or rent) and dies, thread/chamber/headspace the barrel and swap in whatever extractor is needed.  The "experimental frame" has all the latest improvements, heavy latch spring, rame rails bedded, shimmed, BB behind the ejector spring...In reality it is just a SB2 frame/stock with a 3.5" stub barrel receiver I set up for my 17 FB and 6mmBR barrels, nothing very complicated, but it works great. The next "experimental cartridge" will be one of the .585"  "elephant gun" cartridges...probably Ed's 585 HE, but I don't think that will happen until late next year.    I also have/(had) Ruger, Savage and Rem LA/SA receivers set up the same way for the same purposes.  So far I have pushed many limits but haven't blown anything up accidentaly or intentionally for many, MANY years.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to use the "stub barrels from the NEF's on/in one of the Savage LA's...maybe a stub barrel for a stub barrel extension?   Hahahahahaha

You quickly learn that the value of experimentation, for the most part, is to develople loads for a specific purpose...hunting, target, plinking, long range, steel, etc.,...and that each has certain optimum parameters.  Finding those parameters is the whole reason for spending all that money and time.

Putting that information online is sometime an experiment in futility as the apples and cumquats start getting mixed up from the gitgo.

In any event some learning has taken place...on my part and I think on the part of many others.  Learning is NEVER a waste of time.

Luck

[miyata]

In defence of some of the people that tinker with very large cartridges, the larger capacity cases do produce significantly less pressure.  This assumes that correct (slower) powders are used.

Ed Hubel has  done a great deal of experimenting with the SB2 and 10ga frames, and his philosophy is to use the largest possible cases to keep pressures, and breech thrust, lower than existing Handi chamberings.

The truly dangerous loads come from those that want to hot up an existing cartridge, like taking a .45-70 up to the loads used by the .45-120 aficionados.  Whilst 4500ft-lb ME from a .45-120 may be well within the handi's pressure levels, a similar load in a .45-70 just might be too much. 

Ed's .585NE and .499HE are good examples of low pressure cartridges suitable for this kind of platform.

[Mac11700]

In defence of some of the people that tinker with very large cartridges, the larger capacity cases do produce significantly less pressure.  This assumes that correct (slower) powders are used.

Ed Hubel has  done a great deal of experimenting with the SB2 and 10ga frames, and his philosophy is to use the largest possible cases to keep pressures, and breech thrust, lower than existing Handi chamberings.

The truly dangerous loads come from those that want to hot up an existing cartridge, like taking a .45-70 up to the loads used by the .45-120 aficionados.  Whilst 4500ft-lb ME from a .45-120 may be well within the handi's pressure levels, a similar load in a .45-70 just might be too much. 

Ed's .585NE and .499HE are good examples of low pressure cartridges suitable for this kind of platform.

Well..I am not meaning any disrespect to Ed in this...but..I guess you can say it's safe. as long as you want to assume he has accurate readings from his transducer or strain gauge readings and that he has extrapolated the data correctly.I honestly don't know if it is or not,but IMHO if you are driving a 600-700 grain projectile at velocities close to 3000 fps then I have strong reservations about how accurate the reading actually is no matter what case is being used when these claims are made.. Also a modified 50 BMG case isn't going to expand the same way as a oh say a 30-30 case will,so trying to accurately judge pressure by case expansion would not be the way I would do it on something like that,nor would I even try to figure the actual pressure or case thrust on this action using it.I think I would want to have a actual pressure test barrel made up to validate my findings if I was going to go down that road trying to sell folks on the idea.I am not saying his data is wrong or even off any..but that is just me being overly cautious.

BTW...who on this forum has validated those super hot 45-120 loads in a Handi being posted ? How and where was the pressure testing done,or is this again is making an assumption based on a modeling program without actually testing them ?

I will reiterate my feelings here again..what some are considering safe may not be safe after all.Pressures need to be validated by a company that does this for it's livelihood..not by a hobbyist or wildcatter without the proper testing equipment and it needs to be done in a controlled environment.Otherwise we are back to guessing..and assuming everything is proper.

Mac

[GrassLakeRon]

Alright,

   So the line from Jurassic Park ," ....They were so preoccupied if they could, they never stop to think if they should.....".  Ok, So for a Handi-newbie to reloading stay with factory loads?  Marlin loads? Ruger #1 loads?  This is not the only place where data is found on the handi.  Common sense is not so common, but what is acceptable to this group of handi folks?  This would take a lot of confusion to those of us newbies.....

I look forward to the survey.......


Ron

[Mac11700]

Alright,

   So the line from Jurassic Park ," ....They were so preoccupied if they could, they never stop to think if they should.....".  Ok, So for a Handi-newbie to reloading stay with factory loads?  Marlin loads? Ruger #1 loads?  This is not the only place where data is found on the handi.  Common sense is not so common, but what is acceptable to this group of handi folks?  This would take a lot of confusion to those of us newbies.....

I look forward to the survey.......


Ron

Personally I would advise a new person to start out at the lowest and work his way up. The 45-70 if that is what you are referring to does have 3 different loadings,and that person alone will have to determine what and where he starts and is comfortable. I would also suggest for any new person to reloading or Handi's to start researching them and also to establish contacts with all of the various bullet/powder manufacturers.All of them offer a toll free number to use,and I have seen many never to bother with calling them to ask some of the most simple of questions,yet ask those here on the forum them. I would much rather see someone call and discuss things with trained professionals than get 3rd-4th-5th hand information off the web somewhere.

Staying within SAMMI spec's for factory loads limits is advisable for anyone new to these rifles and reloading. You have to learn your own limitations and you need to learn the limitations of the rifle by researching and calling the manufacturer.This is for all rifles..not just Handi's.For me..until the rifle maker and the bullet manufacturers list the Handi rifles under the Ruger load data..I would suggest to a newbie to stay within verified published loading data limits for the rifle.

If you want to experiment with the heavier loadings then do so at your own risk.

Mac

[GrassLakeRon]

See the problem is numbers.  If a rifle can hold say 55k psi safely.  Then loads that are developed to 55k or slightly less should be within limits.  The last manufacture I personally talked to was legal speak.  It reminds me of when car companies put rev limiters in cars.  The car can do 150 mph but we limit it to 120.... so we don't get sued.  Do you have a contact number for Handi/ NEF R&D office? 

[nomosendero]

Mac, I appreciate the common sense, backed by actual experience, careful observation & logic. Looks like it was sorely needed here!

Good job!!

Rod

[GrassLakeRon]

The quote as of 30 seconds ago from H&R was , ".... It will hold the modern loads within SAAMI specs...", "..... if there is published data in regards to the 45-70, it will hold whatever is published for the 45-70".  That was Andrew at H&R.  Everything else was legal speak because of liability.


Ron
 

[quickdtoo]

The SAAMI max average pressure for the 45-70 is 28kpsi, there are no levergun or Ruger SAAMI MAPs, different powder mfr data show varying pressure limits for trapdoor, levergun and ruger/modern rifle, Hodgdon and Hornady list 40kcup as the limit for leverguns and 50kcup for ruger/modern rifles, the others place lower limits which cause confusion as to what safe levels are. The CUP and PSI testing methods also cause confusion, but fortunately in the 45-70, for all intents and purposes, the values are the same, 28kpsi = 28kcup.

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm


Buffalo Bore lists what firearms their loads are safe in, the Handi is listed.  http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154

Same for Garrett. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp


Tim

[gcrank1]

I would also like to add that in the 'you are on your own' part of this is that there are often others around you who may be injured, or have to 'pick up the pieces' of you and a failed experiment.
Some of the tests being done I would be a lot more comfortable with if executed in a test barrel and rigid one piece breech firing assembly(not hard to make for anyone who can thread for a barrel properly), on a V-block test stand, rather than a Handi Rifle.