Drilling Off Shore, Down Right Stupid

[saddlebum]

The problem isn't offshore drilling...it is the WANT of cheap gas and diesel...turn in all your gas guzzlers, drive around in high milage vehicles or bicycles and only ONE fuel using vehicle per family...stop the use of plastics and all the other things that gobble up oil at an astounding rate and REDUCE THE HUMAN POPULATING TO 10% OF ITS PRESENT NUMBER and you WON'T NEED OFFSHORE DRILLING...or much drilling at all for that matter.

This problem didn't start with that well blowout.

The human race is ignorant beyond all comprehension of ALL the reasons going back as far as human life has existed and each one of us is only interested in each one's small world.

Maybe we will learn something from this disaster but I don't think so...I've been following "ecology" since the early 60's and very little meaningful action has happened....when it comes to greed and avarice, humans NEVER LEARN.  EVERYONE is lining up to get a piece of THIS action...the environmentalists, the state and fed governments, the fishermen, the man on the steet...and NOT ONE gives a dam whether the ecosystem is damaged or not...just if they can feed off of it in some way...just like maggots on a dead carcass...if the shorline ecosystem of these states is destroyed for the term of a human lifetime...it will be used to feed more maggots off the carnage and carrion of the dead animals.  Mother Nature will repair it when humans are long gone.

Anyone saying different is just blowing smoke up your Kazoo and is just feeding on it like the rest.

Population control, telling people how to live their lives, darn capitolists, ride a bike?? POPULATION CONTROL???
Who blew smoke up your "kazoo"? If you think the human race is such a blight on the earth then you can start your population control by ridding the planet of yourself. Or you can kiss my "kazoo" and move to Cuba and live and don't forget  to get steralized when you get down there! It's the only way out for you since YOU are the only one that really cares about the ecosystem. Happy peddaling, say hi to Castro for me.

[Dixie Dude]

There have been a lot more ecological things happening in the last 30-40 years.  One textile mill locally cleaned up its dye operations about 30 years ago, but recently moved overseas.  Alabama power built several new natrual gas powered plants and converted some coal plants to natural gas, thereby greatly reducing air polution, especially around the Birmingham area.  Cars are much cleaner today with catylitic converters and using lead free and less gas than older cars and trucks.  Diesel is much cleaner and doesn't produce as much smoke.  

There is a big problem.  Most liberals want us to go with electric cars.  There are several problems with electrics; range, charging time, strain on the power grid to charge a lot of cars, and cost.  The technology isn't there yet.

Another problem.  Most oil is supplied by only a handful of companies, thus a cartel.  They do not want to put natural gas at their stations.  Natural gas can match gasoline in speed, but not quite in range, but can be refueled in about 15 minutes with a compressor station, which is required at a gasoline station to compress the street gas to high pressure for vehicle use.  The cost of a natural gas car or truck is the same as a gasoline one.  The tanks are more expensive, but they do not have to have a catylitic convertor.  

A slow conversion via about 15-20% new vehicles made to be diesel would switch over about 80-85% of vehicles to diesel over a 5 year period.  Gasoline vehicles can still be made, but gradually phased out.  This would cut about 30% of the imported oil.  The higher mpg mandate of the feds will cut another 25%.  This would basically cut the imports, thus keeping more of our money at home.  Oil companies may not like it but they sell diesel anyways and would sell less overall fuel.  

After this conversion, fleets, which account for about 25% of all American vehicle.  If they have over 25 vehicles in a fleet it becomes cost effective to run compressed natural gas (cng).  The fleet user can install a natural gas compressor and use natural gas in their vehicles.  This could be government vehicles like postal trucks, city trucks and cars, county, and state, as well as fed vehicles.  This would cut about 40% of the imports or about 20% of total oil use.  

Plastics are a minor use of oil.  Some plastics are made from coal, and some from natural gas.  Most oil is used for fuel of some sorts.  

Once vehicles are using diesel and natural gas, then maybe the price of hybrid equipment will come down.  They can then be introduced into the mix to further cut oil use.  Also, by that time synthetic oil can be made from coal and or algae at a competitive price.  

FYI, we use about the same amount of gasoline today as we did in 1975.  We had about 120 million vehicles then and 175 million now.  So we are cutting use, it just takes time.  

[SHOOTALL]

Lets face it most don't care about perfect storms until they happen ! Then they get all over it like they are in the know from day one. Hey look at who the American voter has let run our country for years now . I used let run because so many don't even vote !
 Trying to cap that well is starting to look like the monkey trying to get that wooden plug back in the elephants well ya'll know the story , to little to late .
 For years now plumbers freeze pipe to stop flow and work on them cutting in valves and tees or fixing leaks . When I was a helper the company tried it on the 6th floor of a hospital . Long story short the ice slug let go and water flooded to the basement , you see you can't cut water off in a hospital ( reason for the freeze ) . I can assure you that all who were there that day when ever they freeze another pipe they have a wooden dowel trimmed to a point that can be driven into a pipe to plug it if the ice lets go.
Wonder if I could patent a 50 ton steel plug ? Oh well just a thought !

[Dixie Dude]

I have a book at home, can't think of the name of it, but it says America has enough resources to sustain a population the size of China with our current standard of living.  It would require ALL electrical power to be nuclear and/or wind, solar, etc.  We already recycle all our steel and most aluminum.  Enough coal and natural gas for fuel and plastics.  That is huge. 

[scootrd]

One other thing, yes they have been drilling off shore for decades with no major problems fortunately.  But when off shore no one can check up on what they are doing like they can when drilling on shore.  How many more rigs are sitting out there with no remote blowout valves.  When is the next Hurricane due that area?

I agree , that they has been drilling with no major disasters, however we are killing our oceans with tanker spills.
Globally we need to start seriously looking a alternative fuel sources rather than total dependence on oil. I know we will never be able to wean ourselves off oil in it's entirety , but ever little bit helps. The more we can offset our oil dependace with alternativesources the better off our planet will be.

Just my 2 cents

http://www.marinergroup.com/oil-spill-history.htm  

 

[teamnelson]

scootrd, thanks for that perspective. we the people really need to step back a moment and think about the future. oil works, but we're way too dependent on it. why use up the nonrenewable when there seems to be alot of renewable options out there. We seldom make good decisions when forced to, probably best to make it now when we have some wiggle room.

[beerbelly]

We depend on fossil fuel because there is NO alternative!  Wind mills and solar panels just can’t do the job! One coal mine puts out more energy than all the wind mills and solar panels in the world.
    They may one day come up with an alternative energy supply that will work, but for now we don’t have one.
                                       Beerbelly

[gstewart44]

Tesla certainly had a lot of introspect into the world of electrical energy.    Just waiting for someone to build his ideas into reality.   

[Dances with Geoducks]

Are you guys aware the Chinese and Indians are drilling 60 miles of the eastern seaboard?
So if we dont get it, they will.

[SHOOTALL]

DWG , don't cloud the issue with facts , it gets in the way of arm chair QB's

[wreckhog]

Are you guys aware the Chinese and Indians are drilling 60 miles of the eastern seaboard?
So if we dont get it, they will.

Prove it

[dukkillr]

Wind mills and solar panels just can’t do the job! One coal mine puts out more energy than all the wind mills and solar panels in the world.

This statement is simply wrong.  Wrong by many orders of magnitude.

[SHOOTALL]

They havent yet in the same way as coal

[streak]

It is down right stupid for them to be drilling off shore when we have enough oil and natural gas to satisfy this country for the next 50 years (some geologist say 100 years) on shore.  And by that time we should be able to come up with alternative sources of energy.  The only problem with the ion shore areas is that environmentalist have those areas locked up.

Sourdough,
The Bakken shale play in Wyoming and some other adjoining states does hold enough oil to fuel this country for a long time, and with the all of the shale resource plays such as the Haynesville,Barnett, Fayatteville,Woodbine, etc., we have an over abundance of natural gas for this country. But as you mentioned a lot of the onshore is off limits because of the " Bunny Huggers" with the EPA. Also this country in the next decade or so supposedly will be requiring about a third more oil than what is using at the present time. Throw into the mix the ever expanding oil and gas requirements of China and India
and you start to see worldwide that there will be an ever increasing pressure on oil and gas reserves  for many years. So unless the frigging government
starts to reopen these onshore oil and gas properties for exploration, then offshore drilling remains a very viable source for replenshing the needs of not only this country but the whole world.

[jimster]

We should be doing it all, oil, solar, wind, coal and anything else, all of it.  We slowly get off oil as the others get better and better.
Are corporations a problem yes.  But your government is the largest corporation out there, this compounds the problems even worse. Our own government has everything it needs to be the largest coporation of all, and even more, they make their own laws and regulatons, and even more, they decide which ones they will enforce or not.  And yes, the other big problem is the tree huggers, they don't want to do anything at all..same tree huggers here that gripe about oil, don't want wind turbines, not in their neighborhood, go figure.  Coal and oil are the biggest and best for the buck now, but if we did all the options, the others would get biger and better as well.  Problem really is...with everyone sticking there hand in the money jar, none of it will be cheaper, too many in the cookie jar, with the worst of them our own government...the biggest corporation at all.  The more control they have the worse off we all will be in the end.  They actually stifle anyone moving ahead on anything at all.  The odds are against us from all sides.  Best option is to purchase your own private means of economical power, you pay for it once, it's over.  The biggest corporation (uncle sam) is ready to pounce on controlling as much as they can...this will cost the people 5 times more no matter what anyone tells you...you know it's true.  Any private people wanting to get into providing power will be stripped by the largest corporation of all...our own government.

[peps123]

     I agree we have to stop using fossil fuels. It seems if we had locomotives that used hot water to propel them 100 years ago, we certainly should have something better than we do today. I truly believe many innovations have been suppressed by the government along with the oil corps. Just look at what is happening now, you have BP, a BRITISH petroleum company, dictating the actions since the leak as though they are in charge of the gulf coast. This is a complete failure on the part of our leadership with regard to response, and an absolute catastrophe that will be with us for 200+ years? I say we stop allowing the oil corps. to dictate our future and take charge of our country once again. The ONLY ones that benefit from petroleum are the petroleum corporations; they drill for more oil to sell to us at outrageously high prices. How is it possible to make more profit than ever when your base ingredient (petroleum) is more expensive than ever? They are making more profit (billions quarterly?) than when crude was cheap. How does that work? The environmental costs are also staggering: If we allow corporate greed to further pollute and rape our planet, all the natural places we love may be in jeopardy, as well as the wildlife found there in. Say farewell to hunting and fishing as you know it, because these thieves want to own everything and do not care what they destroy.
     As far as electrics go, there is a very interesting documentary called "Who Killed The Electric Car?" that I would encourage anyone to watch. It follows the story of GM and the EV 1 electric car, that by all accounts worked very well. Watch it.   

[Sourdough]

Everyone is thinking Gulf states are the ones being affected, think again.  Look up the currents of the Gulf Stream.  The news media has touched on this just a little.  The oil has already made it to the currents of the Gulf Stream and is right now making the circle around south Florida.  It will continue up northward just off the coast of Georgia, the Carolinas, Virginia, Maryland, you get the picture.  Even across to Nova Scotia, Greenland, by Iceland, then back down past England and Western Europe.  THIS IS GLOBAL.

Now, as far as drilling off shore out in the deep ocean.  I hate to say this, but if we don't, someone else will.  Case in point, Florida.  The oil companies came to the US and wanted to drill in the area between Florida and Cuba.  Florida screamed NO, NO, NO.  Think of our beautiful pristine beaches, no drilling there.  So the oil companies went to see Castro.  He held out his hand and got the money and gave permission.  So the drilling is going ahead anyway, now with no enviromental control from the US.(Seems the US did not have their controls togeather anyway).  Do you really think Castro cares about anything but the money?

One other issue, Solar and Wind are not reliable sources of power.  Yes they have potential, and for some areas they are better suited.  Here in the Tanana Valley where I live we have great sun power during the summer, with up to 21 hours of sunlite.  But during the winter we have 21 hours of darkness, and when the sun is up it is just above the southern horizon.  Winter is also usually cloudy and some days we never know the sun is up.  As for wind, one of the major reasons Eielson AFB is located here is the lack of winds in this valley.  We have a major pollution problem thanks to the lack of wind and inversions during the winter.  So wind power is also out for us.   

[Sourdough]

Oh Yea, one other thing I forgot to mention.  Hurricanes.  The season starts Tuesday and they are predicting a larger than normal number due to contributing factors around the world.  How much of this oil is going to be blown on shore by these storms?  Pushed up the Potomac or even the Hudson?  Could Biscayne Bay become a big natural repository for this oil?  The right conditions it could even be pushed into the Everglades.

[beerbelly]

 peps123 , I hate to tell you this but those locomotives were fired by coal. Good old fossil fuel. There is no magic bullet out there.
                                Beerbelly

[peps123]

     Yes they burned coal to create steam, but couldn't we, 100 years later, have something better than we do now? I hate to tell YOU that we have been sold up the river, and that corporate greed runs this country and every thing our so called representatives do. I do not buy into the fallacy that there is nothing better, because if there is nothing better widely available now it's because those selling crude to us want us to have to keep buying it forever. They are in charge, not we the people.
    

[streak]

Initially they used wood to heat the water for the steam locomotive!

[Sourdough]

Streak, You are right initially they did use wood, but they discovered they got more heat from coal, and it was easier to handle, and went farther per load.

[Dixie Dude]

The Chinese are drilling on the Cuban side of the straight between Key West and Cuba.  About 60 miles from Key West.  There are 90 miles from Key West to Cuba. 

It has been mentioned, we have algae which is 50% oil by weight.  We can grow algae in greenhouses.  If our whole country ran on algae oil, the greenhouses would only cover the size of Rhode Island.  It is carbon neutral and renewable.  We can also run vehicles on natural gas.  It is already being done.  Both are much cheaper than electric cars. 

[magooch]

Okay, I move that we turn Rhode Island into an algae farm and we might as well throw in Maryland, the District of Columbia and part of Virginia.  That should go a long way toward cleaning up this nations political mess and solve our energy needs to boot.  

If this algae thing is perfected, why isn't it being touted as the answer.  Could it be that it still isn't green enough?  The only thing that will satisfy the "greenies" is bicycles and less poople.

[magooch]

Don't get your panties in a wad, TM; I'm in favor of anything that works and if algae works, I'm good with that, or anything else.  I'm just not going to be able to hold my breath until that technology gets fully on line.  I'm addicted to gasoline, but I can still ride a bike if everybody else will.  Luckily, I don't have to drive to work and I'm thinking about grazing instead of going to the grocery store.  Hey, if it's good enough for cows and goats...and one thing that grows like crazy around here is grass.

[Sourdough]

I along with almost everyone else would love to embrace any new technology that would give us energy independence and a differant source of fuel.  I am waiting just like everyone else, but in the mean time what are we to to just shut everything down till it is availiable?  Can't do that need to heat my home during the winter and need to have fuel to go on my yearly hunting trips to provide protein for my family. 

I hear about algae, if it is so good why has business not jumped on it?   I hear about biomass, well all the standing dead trees are still standing, and no one has started harvesting them.  The only alternative fuel I see working is the people that run their trucks on used cooking oil from restaurants.  There is not enough of that to go around. 

Manure piles produce methane, and some large hog and cattle operations are using that to provide for their own energy needs.  But again that is a limited source of energy, not enough for general use of the public.

I mentioned Bio-Mass earlier, where they can take spruce trees and turn them into fuel.  Well we have millions of acres of Black Spruce here in Alaska.  Every year we have large forest fires covering thousands to millions of acres each summer.  Right now I think we have 168 fires currently burning, almost all in Black Spruce.  Black Spruce is a stunted little tree that seldom gets more than 3 to 6 inches in diameter.  They are not good for lumber so no one harvestes them, and we have millions of acres of them covering the state.  Nothing lives in Black Spruce forest, so forest fires that burn them down is a boon to the environment.  We keep hoping someone will start a Bio-Mass operation here to harvest these trees and turn them into fuel, but so far no takers.

There is so many things people say are out there, well if it is such a good source why are we not making more use of it. 

[Dixie Dude]

There are several things that could be done.

The manure methane:  Natural gas is 94% methane.  All the residential natural gas in America can be produced frome dairy farms and feed stalls alone.  However, it is labor intensive and costs about twice as much as drilling.  With a 200 year supply of natural gas already tapped, it isn't cost effective yet.

Algae:  Exxon has just recently spent $500 million dollars on establishing the first greenhouse production facility.  They will evaluate it's cost effectiveness vs drilling.  If it plays out, more will be built.  Algae is also carbon neutral, takes carbon dioxide out of the air when growing, and puts it back in when burned for fuel, which satisfies the greenies.  Greenhouses for fuel can be built all along the Mississippi basin which is about half the country, around the Great Lakes, and along the coastal areas.  

Natural gas for vehicles:  Oil companies won't put the compressor stations at their service stations for refueling.  However, fleets can and have been doing it in various places.  It just hasn't been encouraged by the Feds.  It costs $1.80 per gallon translating from cubic feet of pressure to gallons.  If most fleets converted, we would cut 40% of imports.  This is what T. Boone Pickins is pushing, because it can be done now.  Also, you can refuel a natural gas vehicle in about 15 minutes at a quick fill compressor station or slowly overnight at home.

Diesel:  In a 55 gallon barrel of oil, you get 27 gallons of diesel OR only 20 gallons of gasoline.  This is why 85% of Germany's cars and trucks are diesel so they can cut about 1/3 of their imported oil.  Diesels also get higher mileage so that cuts even more.  We could do this by phasing in diesel vehicles like we did with unleaded gas.  Synthetic diesel can also be made by a blend of coal and natural gas which we have an abundance of.  

Bio-fuels:  Like corn or sugar cane alcohol.  This takes valuable farm land out of food production into fuel production.  It sounds good, but we really can't afford this.  We feed about half the world already.  Tapping it for fuel, I don't think is a good idea.  It puts strain on the environment.  It can hurt hunting and fishing also.  

Electric Vehicles:  Cost and range are what kills electrics.  If someone whats to hop into their gasoline vehicle and cross the country, they can.  They can refuel anywhere in 15 minutes or less.  Electrics take from 3 to 8 hours to recharge, and only have a range of 50-100 miles.  The ones that recharge in the least amount of time and have the greatest range cost from $50-$100 thousand dollars.  Not yet practical and cost effective.  Also, if all cars were electric, we would have to build about 100 new nuclear power plants just to keep them charged nationwide.  

Problem:  We have a cartel of 5 major oil companies producing 85% of the gasoline and diesel we now use.  They refuse to put natural gas compressors at their stations, and until recently with Exxon, haven't given much thought to algae production.  We have over 50,000 independent natural gas companies in America, not a cartel there.  

[billy_56081]

Wind mills and solar panels just can’t do the job! One coal mine puts out more energy than all the wind mills and solar panels in the world.

This statement is simply wrong.  Wrong by many orders of magnitude.

Dukk, could you please list some reliable sources with facts and figures?

Coal on average provides 26 million BTU's per ton, the North Antelope Rochelle mine in Wyoming produces 97 million tons of coal per year. Wind generation world wide is about 160 giga watts, there fore this particular mine has the ability to produce more electricity than the total wind generation in not only the United States but the World.

[jhm]

     I am all for NATURAL GAS I am in the middle of the Fayeteville shale project, and they have already made life comfortable, and they are running the gas lines to connect 8 more wells in my section to the main 42 in pipeline, but until they have all of the feeder lines connected we are in need of OIL and refineries, so I say drill baby drill and let the tree hugging DREAMERS keep DREAMING.   Jim

[Dixie Dude]

I think also, that the Haiti earthquake had something to do with shifting underground rock formations which could have caused this oil blowout and spill.  This thing it over 4,000' underwater, and 30,000' drilled.  That is a tremendous amout of pressure on the underground oil reserve causing it to come up and out with such force.  They do need to think twice and build equipment capable of handling this pressure before it happens again.  Like I said, we do have alternatives, and to get people to use them and put them in place will require tax breaks for those who do until the infrastructure is in place.  

Wind energy is cost effective in the plains states and along shore lines.  However, there aren't many large cities and industrial areas requiring the wind energy from the plains states, thus coal and nuclear fueled.  Wind is competitive with coal in the windy areas.  The problem is not electricity or coal or wind, the problem is with liquid transportation fuel.  We don't import coal or nuclear power, we do oil.  Solve the imported oil problem, then build nuclear power plants and windmills, save the coal for synthetic oil.