Drilling Off Shore, Down Right Stupid

[saddlebum]

I'm not totally against off-shore but darn-it, why did Obama open up more off-shore instead of more land based development???

It was the Bush administration that pushed to end the ban on off shore Drilling - and as I recall in previous discussions there were a whole lot of folks in favor of it on these threads when the Bush administration proposed it saying how it would help move us away from dependency of foreign oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/washington/19drill.html

WASHINGTON — President Bush urged Congress on Wednesday to end a federal ban on offshore oil drilling and open a portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil exploration, asserting that those steps and others would lower gasoline prices and “strengthen our national security.”

So whats your point? You won't catch me wearing a Bush tee shirt. Bad policy is bad policy. At least Bush included some land based drilling in that statement. Excuse me if you got the impression I was trying to defame your President.

[wreckhog]

Well, when stuff like this happens, IMHO - IF IT IS PROVEN THAT A COMPANY WAS WILLINGLY NEGLIGENT, their assets should be seized and sold off to pay for damages. The people of a country allowed them to drill in a safe manner. That trust was betrayed, and they should pay the penalty.

Even if they are not negligent, can't we just seize their property anyway if it is on ours? I recall that the Brits lost the last time they messed with us, roughly 235 years ago.

[Swampman]

Higher gas prices will pay for the clean up.

[saddlebum]

OH AND ANOTHER THING!!  If states would use Sarah Palin's plan that she used in Alaska, everyone in the state would benifit from oil revenues. Actually they do anyway because the state taxes from oil and gas development goes to roads and highways and infrastructure, at least in Wyoming.      
  
             JOBS!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't Sarah Palin's plan a corporate tax? VA backed the Obama offshore plan because VA is taking something like 70% of the profit on anything drilled by them. That is one heck of a tax.

Obama opened up a crapload of additional AK for oil this year. What got shut down was Bristol Bay. Go to Costco and buy the smoked salmon. Yeah, that is where it comes from according to the package.

Palin dubbed her plan "Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share." Oil company profits are taxed at a 25% base rate, up from the previous 22.5%. The tax rate rises 0.2% for each dollar the price of oil exceeds $52 per barrel.   Quote from USA Today.

My point is that states could benefit from the work and revenue from allowing drilling in places like Wyoming and Montana and making us less dependant on foreign oil. The natural gas reserves there and in North Dakota are huge and not being developed as much as it should be,IMO. With the added plus of less risks of disaster like we see in the Gulf. Just think we should take full advantage of our natural resources and trying to see the advantages of land based over off shore. Not that I'm totally against off shore. I'm thinking it's gotta be cheaper to drill on land too.

[scootrd]

I'm not totally against off-shore but darn-it, why did Obama open up more off-shore instead of more land based development???

It was the Bush administration that pushed to end the ban on off shore Drilling - and as I recall in previous discussions there were a whole lot of folks in favor of it on these threads when the Bush administration proposed it saying how it would help move us away from dependency of foreign oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/washington/19drill.html

WASHINGTON — President Bush urged Congress on Wednesday to end a federal ban on offshore oil drilling and open a portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil exploration, asserting that those steps and others would lower gasoline prices and “strengthen our national security.”

So whats your point? You won't catch me wearing a Bush tee shirt. Bad policy is bad policy. At least Bush included some land based drilling in that statement. Excuse me if you got the impression I was trying to defame your President.

I point out it was the Bush administration that pushed to open up off shore drilling and you make the huge leap I am defending the Obama Administration. I wasn't for it when the Bush admin pushed it , and I am not for it now when the Obama Admin pushed it. I was for the Ban when Bush senior put it in place through executive order in 1990.  And I don't disagree , bad policy is bad policy.  

But now your last statement confuses me ....
So let me get this straight ,
Off shore drilling policy is less wrong as long as we offset bad offshore drilling policy with bad land based exploration policies ? Kinda washy washy if you ask me. your either for Drilling off shore or your not. Will be interesting to see how may gulf coast folks will be for off shore drilling in the future.

[saddlebum]

I'm not totally against off-shore but darn-it, why did Obama open up more off-shore instead of more land based development???

It was the Bush administration that pushed to end the ban on off shore Drilling - and as I recall in previous discussions there were a whole lot of folks in favor of it on these threads when the Bush administration proposed it saying how it would help move us away from dependency of foreign oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/washington/19drill.html

WASHINGTON — President Bush urged Congress on Wednesday to end a federal ban on offshore oil drilling and open a portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil exploration, asserting that those steps and others would lower gasoline prices and “strengthen our national security.”

So whats your point? You won't catch me wearing a Bush tee shirt. Bad policy is bad policy. At least Bush included some land based drilling in that statement. Excuse me if you got the impression I was trying to defame your President.

I point out it was the Bush administration that pushed to open up off shore drilling and you make the huge leap I am defending the Obama Administration. I wasn't for it when the Bush admin pushed it , and I am not for it now when the Obama Admin pushed it. I was for the Ban when Bush senior put it in place through executive order in 1990.  And I don't disagree , bad policy is bad policy.  

But now your last statement confuses me ....
Its less wrong or not as wrong a policy as long as we offset bad offshore drilling policy with bad land based exploration policies ?

I apoligize for misunderstanding you. When you brought up Bush I thought you were offended like I was singling out Obama to blame or something, sorry.

I'm not ready to jump on a bandwagon for or against off shore drilling yet. The risks are huge. My frustration is that we don't drill more on land,which makes more sense to me for alot of reasons. I'm a drill baby drill kinda guy and I think land based is the best way to go.

[Sourdough]

Today on CNN a guy was discussing BP and how they had a huge oil spill last year and kept it quite.  No one knows how damaging it was, but that it was a massive oil spill.

OK, lets look at the facts.  Yes it was a big spill, not massive, but a large spill.  The oil came from a ruptured pipe that had corroded due to poor maintenance.  And when the alarm went off, and a red button told the men in the control room there was a leak on a certain line, these guys just thought it was a bad light and alarm, they ignored it.  Now it was in the winter time, temps were well below zero.  All that oil ran out onto the frozen Tundra and just sat there.  It could not soak in, or run anywhere due to the cold making it too stiff to flow.  When it was finally found by a crew driving by in a truck, a large amount had spilled.  All they had to do was take a loader and scoop it up.  No environmental damage done.

Now with Off Shore wells we can see what can happen.  Have to say drilling in the Arctic is safer.

[magooch]

Well, at least we're now past who to blame for it all.  It's Bush and Cheny's fault.  It took a few days, but by god we got em cold.  Now you people who don't like oil and all that it entails, I'm sure you've taken the right steps and have given up driving your gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.

[saddlebum]

Higher gas prices will pay for the clean up.

Oil spill insurance:   http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/us/02liability.html?exprod=myyahoo

[gypsyman]

Well, at least we're now past who to blame for it all.  It's Bush and Cheny's fault.  It took a few days, but by god we got em cold.  Now you people who don't like oil and all that it entails, I'm sure you've taken the right steps and have given up driving your gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.+ 1 gypsyman

[oldandslow]

Well, at least we're now past who to blame for it all.  It's Bush and Cheny's fault.  It took a few days, but by god we got em cold.  Now you people who don't like oil and all that it entails, I'm sure you've taken the right steps and have given up driving your gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.

Good one. 

As far as land and offshore based drilling: You drill for oil where it is.

[williamlayton]

You can't fry an egg without breaking the shell and stuff happens in a nanno.
Pick it up and clean it up and let's go forward.
OH---BTW, it WILL happen again.
Just like dying and taxes.
Blessings

[beerbelly]

Yep, the left wing tree huggers are dancing in the streets!
              Beerbelly

[buffermop]

I think at this point, it is evident that BP doesn't know crap how to clean up the mess or stop the leak Its going to take the US Navy to do the job and we bill BP.

[jimster]

In my news media market they are quiet on this petroleum volcano. BHO quiet, Bobby Jindal quiet, Bush-Crist quiet, BP nonchalantly quiet, everybody is quiet. They should be talking CRIMINAL charges right now.

Well it depends on who is occupying which seats as far as the media being quiet.  You can imagine the uproar of the media if a "perceived" conserative is in office. I of course us the word perceived, cause even the media and a large number of people are too stupid to figure out who is really conservative, probably cause there hasn't been one for a real long time.

Far as criminal charges...also depends on who is in charge, who the preceived criminals are. Or even if it's a matter of criminal at all....depending on how some look at it, and who is in charge...could be just something broke.  But hey...why miss an opportunity to spend some tax payer money on prosecuting the "perceived" criminal.  Just more millions of our dollars to play with to make us all feel good and think someone is going jail..which they won't.

The way I look at it, something broke, it broke pretty bad, things will break again no matter what, so let's get it fixed up, move on, and try not to spend too much of our money looking for the criminal here to prosecute on my back and my money, again.  That makes no sense to me at all...cause it's my dollar and there ain't nothing left to play around with, and even if someone got charged with something, so what...it won't make the oil go away now will it? Just make someone feel good while spending our money for nothing.

BP does not know what to do...obviously...but hey since BHO gets all the time in the world compared to anyone else, I guess he can shoot some hoops long as he wants, evidently he is incapable of making any decisions at all, he probably will find some way to turn this into a racial thing being the idiot he is.

I don't see how we can convict someone for an oil rig failure when when we can't even convict Barney Frank and Dodd, and Polosi for what they done with the banks.  Besides...they are too stupid and political to even prosecute the correct people if there are any. Waste of time and money.

Right now any disaster that happpens is going to be 10 times worse than usual only because of the people that are voted in and in charge...none of them have the brains God gave a goose, or the ability to aggressively attack a bad situation. Only thing they can do is collect our money real fast. We have no leaders at this time. And you ain't seen nothin yet..so hang on to your hats. This is small stuff compared to what we'll see with these clowns in office. Just wait.






 

[teamnelson]

This disaster eclipses all other crap going on on the planet right now.
..TM7
.   

What could be more important that Magic playing the Celtics, Lindsay Lohan wearing a house arrest bracelet, or the season finale of LOST?

We deserve our fate.

[Dee]

I'll bet ya could build a road, and PAY the land owner for it crossing his land, cheaper than you could replace a fishing industry, and all the jobs that go with it, for years to come. Family businesses are about to be wiped out forever, because we have allowed the government to dictate to us, totally ridiculous policies.

When I made this post a month ago the oil spill was fairly new. For almost that month now it is almost all that is on the news. We have lost several thousand of soldiers now, defending Kuwait's right to steal oil from Iraq, and have spent billions trying to make a "silk purse out of a sows ear", by restructuring a country (namely Iraq) that doesn't want to be restructured. Yet now, a month later, industries are being wipe out on the Louisiana Coast that will not be back in our life time, and habitat, that will not be back for at least a life time. Yet most of our resources are protecting OTHER COUNTRIES.
With all the oil reserves on LAND, in our country, where an oil spill is far easier controlled I would have to ask, if in the long run, this particular one will prove to be worth it. I sincerely doubt it. Right now the Democrats are being blamed, and the Republicans are trying to make political hay for the coming elections, but the truth of the matter is, that while Obama got the biggest donations from BP this last election, the Republicans have blown the Democrats out of the water with their getting more money from the oil companies over the DECADES of LOBBISTS BUYING CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS.
Next election, Americans will once again vote the lessor of, foolishly hoping for a different outcome from the same ole tired rhetorical politicians. They run from one end of the ping pong table to the other, never quite grasping that the game is rigged, and is not worth the admission.
This oil spill means nothing to these politicians other than LEVERAGE in the next election. Careers will be solidified, or lost, on the politics of this disaster. But nothing will change.

[magooch]

My bet is that it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference who was politically in power--accidents happen.  Sometimes they happen, because of incompetence, bad planning, unforeseen circumstances and so on.  Everyone standing around pointing fingers doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

Eventually the oil gusher will get stopped and the spilled oil will be dealt with and the finger pointers will not be the ones to get er done.  It's not the biggest disaster the world has ever seen and it won't be the last.  Maybe it didn't have to happen--who can really say?  At this point, I don't think anyone knows exactly what happened and whether, or not it could have been prevented with the best and latest technology, or not.

The best we can hope for is that lessons will be learned and new methods will be developed to clean things up.  At the very minimum, a lot of jobs should result from all this activity.  That can't be all bad, unless we allow illegals to keep invading and taking the jobs.  I'll take an oil spill any day over the illegal invasion that has been ongoing for decades and has been damaging this country far, far more than any other disaster.

[williamlayton]

As too the comment about the Navy having to do the cleanup.
The Navy knows Zip/Nada/Nothing about cleaup.
This is a jusrisdiction of private enterprise and they will get it done. Why? You may ask. They are losing revenue and have a vested interest.
BP is well known to be a company who scrimps on safety---but they will pay more for this cleanup than if they had done it right the first time.
BP seems to operate on the hope that if they do it wrong enough times, sooner or later it will work.
BP is continueing too blow up Texas City--and they are getting better at it, each time.
Blessings

[jimster]

Jimster...you can write it all off as an accident and give all involved a pass out of jail if you choose.

TM, I don't have the money to turn this into a prosecution circus, if I did, I'd try to send Congress to jail first, most likey the money would run out before anyone goes to jail...ain't gonna happen.  Regardless if I think it was an accident, or totally on-purpose like you do.

Right now the best thing to do is get somebody in charge off their lazy no account butts and aggressively attack this situation, which in my opinion could have been done long ago, problem is nobody is in charge.

Now, imagine 8 to 80 times the amount of oil spilled in the Exxon Valdez accident.
According to new findings by scientists from the University of California at Santa Barbara (UCSB) and the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI), that's how much oil has made its way into sediments offshore from petroleum seeps near Coal Oil Point off Goleta, Calif., in the Santa Barbara Channel.
These natural seeps release some 20 to 25 tons of oil daily, "providing an ideal laboratory to investigate the fate of oil in the coastal ocean," says oceanographer David Valentine of UCSB.

Who you gointg to prosecute for all the natural seeps of oil?  No don't tell me...I know I can't afford that.

[Dixie Dude]

You can make synthetic diesel fuel from coal and natural gas.  Heat coal and inject natural gas under pressure.  We have an 800 year supply of coal onshore and about a 400 year supply of natural gas.  Why are we importing oil?

Also, as I've mentioned before, you get 27 gallons of diesel from a barrel of oil and only 20 gallons of gasoline.  That is why 85% of Germany's cars are diesel.  Less imports.

[SHOOTALL]

So which side do we get on ? The side using our tax money to "get" the corp? or the Corp that will charge us more money for fuel in the future ? Now some are spouting off about the corp will be out of business and they won't be able to pass on the cost , RIGHT you will pay more as taxes will rise for the just in case fund . Prices will rise as every other corp will builds a what if this happens to us fund . Oh yea we pay either way .

[SHOOTALL]

Dixie dude , so we will have it when everyone else is out ? So the few that run things can make billions ? Hey we sell our good crude and buy dirty crude , go figure

[jimster]

Unless of course, we have too many 'go along to get along' types, such as yourself, that give a pass and license to corporate plutocracy (AND THEIR GOVERNMENT)

So who's giving anyone a pass? Kinda jumping off a cliff there ain't ya?  

I'm saying there are some things that need to be done right now, gotta fix this, and don't worry, there ar plenty of people that will spend gobs of money looking to put someone in jail.  Right now that ain't helpin the people who are loosing their way of life out that way.

You won't have to worry about looking for the bad guy, blowing gobs of money on trying to jail someone, while they are at it they can play politics too, if your lucky TM, there will be a registered republican behind this.     Far as I'm concerned I ain't even thinking politics, or Dem or Rep, got no use for either one. I can leave the politics alone. I know what will happen and how it will work out...works out the same every time don't it?  Big circus.  


And this point of view I have should not be twisted all up to start saying I'm giving people a pass.  I'm just saying it will be a waste of time and money, and as far as right now, nobody should be doing anything except getting the best there is and be aggressive toward this. Only aggression I see is pointing fingers.
God Gosh, think if something real big were going to happen to the entire earth...we would have the trials before they figured out how to save us. This the best we got?  
 

[teamnelson]

jimster, good point - holding trial while the house is still burning is not helping things. Doesn't mean a trial later might not be in order though.

Given the experimental nature of the operation there was a certain level of risk associated with the unpredictable. Let's imagine for a moment (which is difficult for some I realize) that all reasonable safety devices were in place, federal regulatory action was reasonably and effectively enforced, and this is a catastrophic event outside anyone's reasonable control. Would we be doing anything different relative to stopping the spillage? Would there be anyone else involved that isn't already involved in the solution? It doesn't seem like it; it seems like this is a really huge problem for which no one really seems to have a great answer. But it definitely deserves all the attention it can get in the hopes that somebody somewhere has a great idea.

[Sourdough]

As I said when I originally made this post British Patrolium is and has been neglagent.  Look at the spills they have had in Alaska.  We now keep a good hard look on everything they do up here.  Too bad someone was not looking over their shoulder down south.  There is a big differance between drilling on shore or in shallow water, and drilling in deep water.

The differance is up here it was not a big deal to clean up.  It's cold and the spilled oil had not ran off.  They just scooped it up in a loader and sent it through a seperation process there on the slope.  After the oil had been removed and burned out of the dirt, the soil was replaced from where it was taken.  Local plants were transplanted to the location and in a few years you will not be able to tell there was any work done there.

British Patrolium and Exxon-Moble are the owners of the Alaska Pipeline, and the State of Alaska did not wait for the Feds to keep a watch over them on the Pipeline.  The State of Alaska is all over them, and watches everything they do.  And fines them at the drop of a hat.

Yes we need the oil, but drilling off shore when we have it on shore don't make sense, just to apease some wacko enviromentalist groups.  Alaska has enough proven oil reserves to completely satisfy the current and proposed growth in oil usage for the next 15 to 20 years.  Some exploratories say they are only scratching the surface so far in Alaska, that there is far more test wells that have shown positive results that has not been followed up on.

[Sourdough]

Pump Station 9, 110 miles southeast of Fairbanks.  The Alaska Pipeline is shut down today.  A 55,000 barrel crude oil storage tank overflowed, spilling several thousand barrels of oil.  All spilled oil was contained within a containment dyke built just for this purpose.  The containment dyke will hold 104,500 barrels.  I remember when the state really came down on BP rather hard over these containment dykes.  The state felt the original dykes were not large enough to contain a major spill.

Here we have an example of the way things should work and be run.  The State of Alaska is responsiable for this safety feature being in place, not BP, or the Feds.

There was a loss of power at the pump station.  The loss of power caused some valves to open to prevent over pressuring the pipe.  More oil was diverted into the overflow tank than the tank could hold.  Resulting in a spill.  Thanks to the containment dyke not a big issue.  They just have to vacuum the oil up and put it back into the pipeline.

[Dee]

For those whom think this Gulf oil spill is just not as big a deal as other think, and "accidents happen". The geologists on Fox state that this spill could just continue for weeks or months, but could instead continue for YEARS, if they cannot stop it. This would eventually KILL our southern coast for a century or more. How will that play on the south states economy? Most "perfect storms" are never seen coming, and seldom predicted until it is way too late.

[Dixie Dude]

Alabama has very little coast line, but it generates half the tourism taxes in the state, not counting fishing and shrimping.  Florida and Louisiana could be devistated.  Don't know about Mississippi, but Bilouxi has gambling and it generates a lot of revenue.  Like I said, there are other ways to make fuel, coal, natural gas, algae for conventional fuels.  With the new gas mileage regulations that will take place over the next 5 or so years, we will cut about 20-25% of our gasoline consumption.  We can cut another 30% by switching to diesel.  That is a 50% reduction in oil.  Switching fleets to natural gas can cut another 20%.  Government has only mandated the mileage increase, but also mandating switching to diesel engines can we make more serious cuts as well as fleets to natural gas. 

Cutting out imported oil will cut half our trade deficits.  China revaluing their Yuan will cut most of the rest.   

[NFG]

The problem isn't offshore drilling...it is the WANT of cheap gas and diesel...turn in all your gas guzzlers, drive around in high milage vehicles or bicycles and only ONE fuel using vehicle per family...stop the use of plastics and all the other things that gobble up oil at an astounding rate and REDUCE THE HUMAN POPULATING TO 10% OF ITS PRESENT NUMBER and you WON'T NEED OFFSHORE DRILLING...or much drilling at all for that matter.

This problem didn't start with that well blowout.

The human race is ignorant beyond all comprehension of ALL the reasons going back as far as human life has existed and each one of us is only interested in each one's small world.

Maybe we will learn something from this disaster but I don't think so...I've been following "ecology" since the early 60's and very little meaningful action has happened....when it comes to greed and avarice, humans NEVER LEARN.  EVERYONE is lining up to get a piece of THIS action...the environmentalists, the state and fed governments, the fishermen, the man on the steet...and NOT ONE gives a dam whether the ecosystem is damaged or not...just if they can feed off of it in some way...just like maggots on a dead carcass...if the shorline ecosystem of these states is destroyed for the term of a human lifetime...it will be used to feed more maggots off the carnage and carrion of the dead animals.  Mother Nature will repair it when humans are long gone.

Anyone saying different is just blowing smoke up your Kazoo and is just feeding on it like the rest.