9.3x62 better than 35 whelen

[Con]

Hey Kombi,
Everyone knows the 270Win is better ... just like the Type 3 Notchback was better than the Fastback.

One thought I find provoking is that the 375H&H is now the African medium bore classic. Everyone is advised to take a 375H&H to Africa if a variety of game is being chased from plain to dangerous and one rifle is required to do it all. If the Germans had of won the war ... this may never have been the case as popularity of the 9.3 far exceeded the 375H&H in the initial days, due most likely to price of rifles ... the Germans had cheaper bolt guns available in 8mm, 9.3mm and 10.75mm, all of which would have been applicable. If you ever get a chance ... try a 10.75x68, you'll LOVE it!! But projectile performance killed this magnificent cartridge. Keep thinking I should build one on a Ruger MkII or Hawkeye.

Finn Aagaard's writings on growing up in Kenya are interesting in seeing what was actually on the ground in the 40s-50s. Lots of 8mm, 9.3mm, very few British guns ($$$) but they were about and all were getting starved for ammunition, particularly the doubles. In using/watching all these varieties on medium game, none outshone another when projectiles were placed correctly. When the 375H&H arrived in Africa in the form of the Model 70, with adequate ammunition supplies in the form of 300gr soft and solids ... both he and his friends changed over. There's a lesson in that for Hornady and its 375Ruger and 416Ruger!! Harry Manners did likewise, basing his career around the 375H&H and Winchester M70.

9.3 vs 35 is certainly splitting hairs ... but its what rifle nuts do.
Cheers...
Con
PS: 35s are better!

[Drilling Man]

A bullet designed to stay together under the crazy velocities of the 338 Win Mag, 338 RUM, 340 Wby Mag and the even more insane 338 Lapua is not ideal for a slower cartridge.

  I do agree with that statement. BUT, the thing is, i started hunting big game with a .338-06 back in the 70's and i can tell you from my own personal experience, that NOT "all" .338" bullets ARE designed for .338 mag. and faster velocities, not even close IF you are going to use them on bigger game animals.  SO, your argument on that point, doesn't hold water at all!

  When it comes to moose and brown bear, i was looking for "tougher" bullets for my .338-06's.

  DM

[kombi1976]

You're right about the 375 H&H, Con.
It totally changed the playing field.
The non-magnums pretty much went out the window for dangerous game and for the most part rightly so.
8mm and 303, much as they took their fair share of dangerous game, also lost men's lives on other occasions.
It's just sad that you're totally wrong about 35 cal......9.3mm is naturally superior. 

P.S. Kombis are better than any Type 3!

[Con]

P.S. Kombis are better than any Type 3!

Split or solid screen?

Man I rue the day my idiot brother wiped out the VW Beetle ... it was 4 months older than me (71 model), been in the family since new and I loved it dearly. 
Cheers...
Con

[kombi1976]

P.S. Kombis are better than any Type 3!

Split or solid screen?

You have to ask??!!
Split of course.
I own 2, both Panels;  a '62 and a '67.

Man I rue the day my idiot brother wiped out the VW Beetle ... it was 4 months older than me (71 model), been in the family since new and I loved it dearly. 

I can go one better.
One fella I know convinced his dad to sell the family's mid '50s 23-Window to buy a "more hip and cool" FC Holden wagon. 
He now owns one of the major VW specialists and would kill to know where that 23-Window got to.
But we are WELL off the topic.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well seeing as trying to argue which is better based on performance merits is just plain silly. . .

I think a good case can be made on aesthetic merits.  The .35 Whelen is AMERICAN that in itself should help with the decision.  Heck the more them Afrikaners see the Whelen put the whoop on their critters the more respect they'll have.

Second thing is the Whelen has a way cooler name.  I mean honestly, who was the doofus who thought to name cartridges with some sort of math problem 9.3x62= WHAT?!  On the other hand what owner of the 35 Whelen did not do at least a Wikipedia search on who this fella named Col. Townsend Whelen is?  Well I am pleased to have his name stamped on the barrel of my gun. 

[kombi1976]

Second thing is the Whelen has a way cooler name.  I mean honestly, who was the doofus who thought to name cartridges with some sort of math problem 9.3x62= WHAT?!

9.3x62 = SUDDEN DEATH.......of course!

[Brithunter]

Second thing is the Whelen has a way cooler name.  I mean honestly, who was the doofus who thought to name cartridges with some sort of math problem 9.3x62= WHAT?!  On the other hand what owner of the 35 Whelen did not do at least a Wikipedia search on who this fella named Col. Townsend Whelen is?  Well I am pleased to have his name stamped on the barrel of my gun. 

9.3x62 Mauser  adopted in 1905 the .35 Whelan dates from 1922-23 and was made by the gunsmith James V Howe acccording to Townsend Whelan in his book "The Hunting rifle" (page 271). Howe developed it after the .400 Whelan, Townsend and Howe's development, proved a commercial failure due to problems in forming the small shoulder with "exactitude" in quantity production. Now I cannot believe that Townsend Whelan and James Howe were unaware of the Mauser 9.3x57 cartridges existence  the .35 Whelan, again according to Whelan's book  , "was developed to use the existing .35 cal bullets of 200, 250 and 275 grains weight. the latter being a special bullet made by the Western Tool & Copper works".

It's probable that the US bullet makers were not making 0.366" dia bullets so Howe had to use what was available.

Now how can Whelan be a cooler name than Mauser?  Whom without the 03 Springfield would not have existed, nor the 30-03 to become the 30-06 and so onto the .35 Whelan. No without Paul and Wilhelm Mauser none of those would have existed.

I mean honestly, who was the doofus who thought to name cartridges with some sort of math problem 9.3x62= WHAT?

So your calling one of the greatest Firearms designers a doofus  ........................................ 9.3mm is the bore size and 62mm the case length. Mauser thought that was enough to identify the cartridge and rifle it was made to fit same as the 9x57mm  . I can only assume that you feel the same way about the 45-70  .

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Brithunter,

Please take my comments with tongue-in-cheek.

However, I must boast that my broader point, that arguing the aesthetics of the two cartridges will produce a much better discussion, has proven correct.


So it's the 9.3x62 MAUSER?  Well that's better, but aesthetically Whelen kicks its butt. 

[jcn59]

The 9.3X62  cartridge and Hitler arose from the same hell.   It's "un-American" to promote the 9.3x62.

The WHELEN,  however, has a glorious beginning!  (drumroll) The developers of the Whelen didn't need no stinkin' metric system.   They were REAL AMERICANS!

[kombi1976]

Ok, if we really want to be specific the 9.3x62 was designed by Otto Bock.
So while anything hit by the Whelen may cop a "Whelen" anything shot with a 9.3x62 is totally "Bocked".
Chalk that up for one point.

For the second one, the '62 was PRE-Nazi Germany, pre-WW1 in fact.
It wasn't designed specfically for hunting like the Whelen.
It was purpose built as a solid flexible performer for farmers in a colony outside Europe.
And you have to also presume that being American makes something better.
Since that isn't necessarily the case, especially for an Aussie like me or a Limey like Brithunter, then it's a moot point.
So that's 2 for us.
And why do we get another point.....'cause I say so. 

[Barstooler]

For the second one, the '62 was PRE-Nazi Germany, pre-WW1 in fact.

Case in point JCN did not say the 9.3 came from Hitler's Nazi Germany, he stated: "The 9.3X62  cartridge and Hitler arose from the same hell."

"and" is not from, and the fact it became popular in S. Africa does not change its German origins.

So minus 1 for you.

Concur that American made is not superior....but I still prefer the Whelen vs the Bocked (very good)

So we are tied up again, because as I have stated previously "argueing over the 9.3x62 and 35 Whelen is like two bald men fighting over a comb.

Barstooler

[Justin10mm]

What were the first 35 Whelens chambered in? Converted '03 Springfields!

Were did the design of the '03 Springfield come from? The '98 Mauser!

Last I checked you can't get more German than a Mauser '98.

Take that!  

I suppose it's un-American to even own a bolt action rifle.    

[kombi1976]

What were the first 35 Whelens chambered in? Converted '03 Springfields!

Were did the design of the '03 Springfield come from? The '98 Mauser!

Last I checked you can't get more German than a Mauser '98.

Take that!  

I suppose it's un-American to even own a bolt action rifle.    

Barstooler, you just got owned.

[Drilling Man]

  My "go to gun" is a Krieghoff, and you can't get much more german that that!

  DM

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Were did the design of the '03 Springfield come from? The '98 Mauser!

Yep.  Americans took the Mauser and made it better!  Thus they had to give it a better name.

So what can you folks tell us about Heir Mauser?

Col. Townsend Whelen was a pretty fantastic fellow.  Any guy who can walk off into the mountains for 9 months at a crack just for a little R&R can have his name stamped on my gun.  Do they even have wilderness in Germany?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

And you have to also presume that being American makes something better.

Isn't it treasonous to abandon that presumption?

[Brithunter]

Were did the design of the '03 Springfield come from? The '98 Mauser!

Yep.  Americans took the Mauser and made it better!  Thus they had to give it a better name.

So what can you folks tell us about Heir Mauser?

Col. Townsend Whelen was a pretty fantastic fellow.  Any guy who can walk off into the mountains for 9 months at a crack just for a little R&R can have his name stamped on my gun.  Do they even have wilderness in Germany?

Oh dear.............................. now we see just how much education has failed in the US  and as I can see I am wasting my time in even trying to educate some I'll not waste my time or effort.

[Barstooler]

What were the first 35 Whelens chambered in? Converted '03 Springfields!

Were did the design of the '03 Springfield come from? The '98 Mauser!

Last I checked you can't get more German than a Mauser '98.

Take that! 

I suppose it's un-American to even own a bolt action rifle.     

Acually the U.S. paid Mauser for patent violations dealing with the stripper clip.  We all know the Mauser 98 is much superior to the 1903 Springfield -- that is not rocket science. 

The fact the Mauser spawned the Springfield does not equate to the 9.3X62 cartridge being superior to the Whelen.  Actions and cartridges (the last time I looked are different). Is the 8x57 (Mauser) superior to the 30-06 (Springfield) cartridge?  I don't think so Justin.  The day that you "own" me I will stick a GAU 8 up my fundamental orifice.

Barstooler

[Justin10mm]

My post was aimed more at jcn59's post than yours, and "I" never said anything about "owning" anyone. 

I don't even know what a GAU 8 is, but it dosn't sound very appealing. 

[mrussel]

The 9.3X62  cartridge and Hitler arose from the same hell.   It's "un-American" to promote the 9.3x62.

The WHELEN,  however, has a glorious beginning!  (drumroll) The developers of the Whelen didn't need no stinkin' metric system.   They were REAL AMERICANS!

And so did the 8mm Mauser from which the 30-03 and 30-06 were copied.

[Barstooler]

My post was aimed more at jcn59's post than yours, and "I" never said anything about "owning" anyone. 

I don't even know what a GAU 8 is, but it dosn't sound very appealing. 

It isn't:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger

Barstooler

[mrussel]

Is the 8x57 (Mauser) superior to the 30-06 (Springfield) cartridge?  I don't think so Justin. 

 Boy did you open a can of worms there.  My experience so far is that they are pretty much the same,but its usually said that the 06 is a bit more powerful. From what Ive seen in for the same bullet weight,the 06 has a bit more pressure and case capacity. (About 5% higher pressure) The 8mm has slightly lower case capacity and less pressure but a larger diameter bullet,in fact its cross section is about 10% larger which means that at the same pressure the force acting on the bullet to push it down the bore is 10% greater.  All in all,its close to a wash. (OK,the 06 data is often a hair faster,but less than you would see from a fast or slow barrel) It does seem that any difference comes at the extremes,in other words,the 8mm performs better with heavier bullets and the 06 with lighter ones. I'm not saying one is better than the other,in fact im not yet convinced there is any practical difference ,just that people can argue for days about it.

[Drilling Man]

  These days, i hunt with my 8x57 loaded with 200NP's more than any other cartridge.  And after hunting all over Alaska for many years with both, the 30-06 and the 8x57, there's no doubt in my mind that i'd take the 30-06 loaded with 200NP's over the 8x57 loaded with anything, every time.  That is, "if" i'm thinking about DG like brown/grizzly bears.  For all other big game, they both have worked just fine for me.

  DM

[mrussel]

  These days, i hunt with my 8x57 loaded with 200NP's more than any other cartridge.  And after hunting all over Alaska for many years with both, the 30-06 and the 8x57, there's no doubt in my mind that i'd take the 30-06 loaded with 200NP's over the 8x57 loaded with anything, every time.  That is, "if" i'm thinking about DG like brown/grizzly bears.  For all other big game, they both have worked just fine for me.

  DM

 What kind of velocities are you getting out of a 06 with the 200 partitions. Nolser lists 2635fps for the 8mm and 2560 for the 06mm. In my mind,while I like the 8mm,I dont consider 75fps enough to be able to say its better. To me that comes out essentially the same.

[Drilling Man]

  These days, i hunt with my 8x57 loaded with 200NP's more than any other cartridge.  And after hunting all over Alaska for many years with both, the 30-06 and the 8x57, there's no doubt in my mind that i'd take the 30-06 loaded with 200NP's over the 8x57 loaded with anything, every time.  That is, "if" i'm thinking about DG like brown/grizzly bears.  For all other big game, they both have worked just fine for me.

  DM

 What kind of velocities are you getting out of a 06 with the 200 partitions. Nolser lists 2635fps for the 8mm and 2560 for the 06mm. In my mind,while I like the 8mm,I dont consider 75fps enough to be able to say its better. To me that comes out essentially the same.

  It isn't always about velocity...  It's about bullet performance "in the animal", and the 30 cal 200NP is a spectacular bullet on big game.

  DM

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

My experience so far is that they are pretty much the same

Well of course they are.  But that should stop anyone from arguing until they're blue in the face.

[Brithunter]

  These days, i hunt with my 8x57 loaded with 200NP's more than any other cartridge.  And after hunting all over Alaska for many years with both, the 30-06 and the 8x57, there's no doubt in my mind that i'd take the 30-06 loaded with 200NP's over the 8x57 loaded with anything, every time.  That is, "if" i'm thinking about DG like brown/grizzly bears.  For all other big game, they both have worked just fine for me.

  DM

 What kind of velocities are you getting out of a 06 with the 200 partitions. Nolser lists 2635fps for the 8mm and 2560 for the 06mm. In my mind,while I like the 8mm,I dont consider 75fps enough to be able to say its better. To me that comes out essentially the same.

  It isn't always about velocity...  It's about bullet performance "in the animal", and the 30 cal 200NP is a spectacular bullet on big game.

  DM

Hmmm I wonder why Nosler would make the partition to perform any different in the 8mm regards the .30 cals. With the diameters being close in size you would have thought the contrstruction would have been the same resultign in performign the same in game