9.3x62 better than 35 whelen

[crash87]

  The fellow that likes the .338-06,
it would be a better choice at greater distance, hey rifle talk is fun.

Why?        Yes rifle talk is fun, quoting paper ballistics is not fun, boring mostly. AND means very little to the actual firing of these three at any distance. 9.3, 35Whelen, 338-06. So how much deader is an animal going to be,at distance, with a 338? But 1st, how far is "greater distance"? Now we are not going to go into sectional densities or ballistical coefficients or "Yawn"    now are we?
 Just FYI. One of Jeff Coopers criteria for his scout rifle concept was a short action, 308 length. I can do numbers to, it wasn't about headspace, it was about cartridge length. Last I checked my 35 whelen cartridges won't fit in my 350 mag guide gun. I didn't even need a calculater to figure that one out. 
 I know people too, in fact, I know a guy............                         CRASH87

[JJ Kelly]

Crash, if your anywhere in central Florida, I would like
to buy you a cup of coffee and try not to be boring.

[JJ Kelly]

Since you brought up the .308 win, there was a good article
on headspace proving 7.62 x 51mm(nato) is not the same as
.308 win. Using go-gauge and no-go gauges; firing a factory
.308win in a 7.62 nato chamber will cause case head seperation
because of headspace.

[Brithunter]

Since you brought up the .308 win, there was a good article
on headspace proving 7.62 x 51mm(nato) is not the same as
.308 win. Using go-gauge and no-go gauges; firing a factory
.308win in a 7.62 nato chamber will cause case head seperation
because of headspace.

JJ,
     That should read "MAY" cause a head seperation  too many people DO FIRE COMMERCIAL .308 IN 7.62X51 CHAMBERS even though it's wrong to do so. In fact i have a feeling that the "Industry" has fudged the specs on the .308/7.62x51 to reduce the risk of this as they know regardless of beign warned not to do the folksa re just going to carry onin their own sweet little way then scream and shout when it all goes tits up on them.

Also the whole headspace and dange thing has been blown all out of proprotion. Like the chap who brought a used .308 rifle at auction brought some ammo and went to the range to sight in. Luckily the range owner was there and it was quiet so he offered to spot for him. The first shot was low and as he looked down to tell him so the shooter ejected the case and Carl shouted Hold on. The case was straight shanked with no neck he thought it had seperated. But it hadn't the rifle turned out to be chambered in .308 Norma magnum and he just shot a std .308 through it. Hows that for excessive headspace?  . The rifle was a Parker-Hale 1200 Super Safari and the extractor held the case against the bolt enough for it to fire with the case litrelly floating in the chamber no damage was done to rifle or shooter although several weeks later the extractor lip did break? We will never know if it was age of that round that weakened it.

[mauser98us]

Dang Brit, I did that 25 years ago. I thought my secret was safe,but alas you must have found out. My case was a custom Interarms  marked 308. Turned out to be a 308 Norma Mag. I have kept that case on my reloading bench since as a reminder to pay attention.

[Brithunter]

Dang Brit, I did that 25 years ago. I thought my secret was safe,but alas you must have found out. My case was a custom Interarms  marked 308. Turned out to be a 308 Norma Mag. I have kept that case on my reloading bench since as a reminder to pay attention.

But you cannot have survived  all the "Hexperts" tell us how dangerous excessive headspace is and to have a rifle with such is akin to holding a bomb in ones hands and denoting it  .

Seriously I am glad your OK and I assume the rifle survived too?

Now I brought a rifle, one I have always lusted after at what I thought was a cheap price  the stock had been heavily altered to suit one of small stature, a lady or child?, and in doing so the pistol grip was removed and it made a shotgun type straight hand grip and very well done too with Rigby style Mullered boarder chequering. The rifle was a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 in 6.5x54MS. At some time in the dim past the barrel had been re-lined by F. Clarke, whoever every that was with his "Zero Liner"  .

Now the rifle shot quite well but with new RWS ammuntition over half the cases failed on first firing. They would extract but you could see the seperation line round them and just a flick with the finger and they would break off. They were also "Lobed" almost like a "Tround" .............. the liner had gone bad so it was put up until we eventually found a new "In the White Syeyr made barrel in 6.5x54MS" which was fitted and the rifle re-blacked.. On firing with the re-lined barrel there was no indication that the cases had split until you opened the bolt and extracted it. Acording to the Nay-sayers there should have been smoke and gases spitting everywhere. Perhaps the Steyr is a better design than a lot of modern rifles in this respect?

So my cheap Schoenauer is now no longer cheap having cost twice what I had originally paid for it and I still have to re-stock it to finish the job at some point in time.

[mauser98us]

well Brit the rifle and shooter went on to live another day. No damage done to anything. Matter of fact, after I ascertained the chamber was a 308 Norma mag, it went on to perform many sub inch groups. One of the reasons I am such a model 98 fan. Kinda like the old timex watch ads. Takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

[Brithunter]

well Brit the rifle and shooter went on to live another day. No damage done to anything. Matter of fact, after I ascertained the chamber was a 308 Norma mag, it went on to perform many sub inch groups. One of the reasons I am such a model 98 fan. Kinda like the old timex watch ads. Takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

Hmmm of course the Parker-Hale was a Mauser 98 action  of course the Mannlicher was not.


Hmmm you sure your OK after all they all tell us dangerous excessive headspace is  and .308 Win in .308 Norma must have about 1/2" of headspace 

In fact I was interested in buying the P-H Super Safari but we could not come to an agreeable price, the owner thought is was worth more than I did  .

[mauser98us]

The only thing hurt was my pride. I really did feel stupid after that incident,but alas I have always been told what does not kill you only makes you stronger!

[kombi1976]

9.3x62 IS better than 35 Whelen IMO but then it all depends on what you want.
Someone earlier said they'd heard it had been created to compete with the 360 H&H.
This may be partly true but it was actually invented by Otto Bock in 1905 for German farmers in Africa.
The double rifles in Nitro Express chamberings used by gentlemen hunters were very expensive and pricey to feed, much as they are today.
The farmers needed an affordable and reliable rifle that could shoot pests, knock over game for the table and also dispatch dangerous game if the situation should arise.
The product was the 9.3x62 and its most common load is a 286gr FMJ or RNSN at about 2300fps or a little less.
It was the longest and largest catridge that could easily chamber in a Mauser 98 commercial action and still feed well.
As others have said it is the legal exception all over Africa where 375 H&H is usually the lower limit and in places where hunters must use 40 cal or above.
Woodleigh also make 320gr FMJs and RNSNs for this cal.
It is purely coincidence that the US Army and Bock ended up with a case only 1mm different in length and with the same case head.
Both were using almost identical actions and the '62 has a shorter neck providing more powder space over the '06.
That's part of the reason it has a slight edge on the Whelen.
I personally would never bother messing with '06 brass to form 9.3x62 cases.
Lapua makes excellent and affordable brass and there's simply no need to go upsizing '06 brass like crazy.
A decent bullet for non-African game is the Speer 270gr Semi Spitzer.
It's inexpensive and anything that'll get up after it's hit with that is pretty tough.
Just keep in mind that often soft skinned game don't know they're dead yet.
It can pencil through goats although every large male roo I've hit with it has been "Good night, Nurse!"
The 9.3 is also becoming more and more popular for sambar deer and water buffalo hunting in Australia.
Sambar are almost elk sized and the Whelen is a good choice for them too but buffs need the heavy bullets made for 9.3 cal.
9.3x62 is also effective against wild donkeys, brumbies (feral horses), camels and scrub bull (feral cattle).
Again, a Whelen can take these but the very nature of the 286gr load makes the 9.3x62 a much more flexible rifle on larger animals.
Plus, it's a cool metric calibre.

[yooper77]

The fellow that likes the .338-06, it would be a better choice at greater distance, hey rifle talk is fun.

Yes, I really enjoy my 338-06 A-Square.  I stick with bullets 180, 200, 210 225 and 250 grains for my use.

It is capable of taking any North American game animal to include all the bear species if obviously bullet selection and shot placement is correct as with anyone using any cartridge used for taking game animals.

yooper77

[mauser98us]

Dang Brit, I did that 25 years ago. I thought my secret was safe,but alas you must have found out. My case was a custom Interarms  marked 308. Turned out to be a 308 Norma Mag. I have kept that case on my reloading bench since as a reminder to pay attention.

But you cannot have survived  all the "Hexperts" tell us how dangerous excessive headspace is and to have a rifle with such is akin to holding a bomb in ones hands and denoting it  .

Seriously I am glad your OK and I assume the rifle survived too?

Now I brought a rifle, one I have always lusted after at what I thought was a cheap price  the stock had been heavily altered to suit one of small stature, a lady or child?, and in doing so the pistol grip was removed and it made a shotgun type straight hand grip and very well done too with Rigby style Mullered boarder chequering. The rifle was a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 in 6.5x54MS. At some time in the dim past the barrel had been re-lined by F. Clarke, whoever every that was with his "Zero Liner"  .

Now the rifle shot quite well but with new RWS ammuntition over half the cases failed on first firing. They would extract but you could see the seperation line round them and just a flick with the finger and they would break off. They were also "Lobed" almost like a "Tround" .............. the liner had gone bad so it was put up until we eventually found a new "In the White Syeyr made barrel in 6.5x54MS" which was fitted and the rifle re-blacked.. On firing with the re-lined barrel there was no indication that the cases had split until you opened the bolt and extracted it. Acording to the Nay-sayers there should have been smoke and gases spitting everywhere. Perhaps the Steyr is a better design than a lot of modern rifles in this respect?

So my cheap Schoenauer is now no longer cheap having cost twice what I had originally paid for it and I still have to re-stock it to finish the job at some point in time.

  The rifle survived extremely well,no issues at all. The only thing not to survive was my ego,cause I felt relly stupid.

[john keyes]

I'd go with the 9.3x62 just because it IS unique. but then I have a big selection of rifles with commonly available components.

not too many kangaroos around here though.  If I did kill one I'd have to toss it on the barbe and see how she tastes.

[kombi1976]

You right about the unique appeal.
What isn't cool about a cartridge that says 9.3 at the beginning.   
And I like European metric cartridges too.
There was something about knowing that when I bought this cal it was the biggest metric you could buy in an ordinary rifle and that it was fit for Africa.
Whelen and 338-06 are both fine but they're American and avowedly so.
Both have had their fair share of success in Africa but it's always an "Oh, yeah, well so and so took his Whelen to Africa and it did fine."
It's not like it was designed for Africa the way the 9.3x62 was.
I actually considered getting a Whelen years back but decided against it as it was a custom rifle only option at the time.
And I was going to buy a Ruger No1 7x57 but when I saw that big 9.3mm in the T3 I had to have it.
Am I compensating for something.....probably, but who cares!

[yooper77]

I look at it this way to see the difference which isn’t much in the grand scheme of things.  Names are easy to change, just start calling it something else.

338-06 A-Square or 34 A-Square or 8.6x63mm
.338" = 8.5852mm (8.6mm)
-0.028" = -0.7mm compared to the 9.3x62 Mauser

35 Whelen or 358-06 or 9.1x63mm
.358" = 9.0932mm (9.1mm)
-0.008" = -0.2mm compared to the 9.3x62 Mauser

9.3x62mm Mauser or 37 Mauser
.366" = 9.2964mm (9.3mm)

yooper77

[mrussel]

better? well I have been trying to find a 9.3 bullet mold, no luck.  Have at least 5 .35 molds.  So from the stanpoint of bullet availability I would say the .35 has the edge by a large margin, unless you don't reload.
As far as power goes, I don't think any animal would know the difference.  Pick your poison.  Bill439

 If your willing to pay a little more I think Lee will make you a custom mold.

[mrussel]

Dang Brit, I did that 25 years ago. I thought my secret was safe,but alas you must have found out. My case was a custom Interarms  marked 308. Turned out to be a 308 Norma Mag. I have kept that case on my reloading bench since as a reminder to pay attention.

 Worst I ever did was stick a 10mm in a 45. Got yelled at and called an idiot and told to be a heck of a lot more carefull. No damage though.

[mrussel]

I'd go with the 9.3x62 just because it IS unique. but then I have a big selection of rifles with commonly available components.

not too many kangaroos around here though.  If I did kill one I'd have to toss it on the barbe and see how she tastes.

 Like chicken?

[kombi1976]

But can't you see, yooper?
8.6x63mm or 9.1x63mm sound TONS cooler than 338-06 or 35 Whelen.
Maybe it's the exotic nature of metric over the mundanity of imperial measurements.
The crazy thing is we measure the inch based cals by decimal divisions!

not too many kangaroos around here though.  If I did kill one I'd have to toss it on the barbe and see how she tastes.

Like chicken?

No, roo is a super lean and gamey meat.
It benefits well from marinating.
It is quite nice to eat but requires fast careful searing or long, slow gentle cooking.
Otherwise you're left with consistency suitable only for making shoes, belts and saddles out of it........

[john keyes]

I did a quick search on gunbroker to see what is out there for this round:

rifles...check (and not just $20,000 blasers and C&Rs....there are some current models)

dies...a little high at $66

brass....check...not too bad

bullets.....366 diameter...enough to keep you busy

so the stuff is def. out there. 

[mauser98us]

I have what the Swedes refer to as the potatoe thrower,a 9.3 x57.I really like it. I imagine the 9.3x62 is much better.

[kombi1976]

Norma's statistics say around 250fps but I wonder if that's true in the real world.
If you have a M98 you can screw a lot of out that cartridge.
If you have a 9.3x57 in a M96 then it slips back to a tad.
But it's still a very capable round.
Anything that'll flick a 286gr pill at 2000+fps is well up to everything but the big 5.

[JJ Kelly]

The more I use my CZ 550 in 9.3x62mm, I don't use my other rifles.
The 270 speer at 2500 fps from a 20" barrel does it all for me. Since
I make my ammo from 30-06 cases, it is cheeper to feed and less
recoil than my .338 win mag or .375 H&H.

[kombi1976]

I'm with you, JJ.
My T3 Lite Stainless has become my go to stalking rifle.
Of course I don't shoot rabbits and foxes with it but otherwise it usually comes along every hunt.
Although I'm not getting 2500fps out of my 270gr Speers....more around the 2315fps....but I'm not much above minimum load.
I could load it hotter but why bother?
I took my first trophy goat with it actually.
For the record I use Lapua brass.
Quite cheap for factory brass and really good stuff.

[yooper77]

The more I use my CZ 550 in 9.3x62mm, I don't use my other rifles.
The 270 speer at 2500 fps from a 20" barrel does it all for me. Since
I make my ammo from 30-06 cases, it is cheeper to feed and less
recoil than my .338 win mag or .375 H&H.

That’s the main reason I got my 338-06 A-Square since I can use 30-06 Springfield brass, as people do for 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 Mauser.  Plus I have no use for any rifle magnum cartridge.

I hand load 180, 200, 210, 25, 250, 275 and 300 grain bullets out of my Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight rifle’s 24" barrel, but I don’t know the velocity.  Its accuracy is outstanding and capable of harvesting any animal in North America.

yooper77

[kombi1976]

And that's the big argument for the 338-06 and the Whelen.
And the non-magnum thing is precisely the reason I love the 9.3x62.
I can't see the point in magnums aside of the dangerous game or really long distance stuff.
So that only includes stuff like the 375 H&H, 458 Win and 458 Lott and the 338 Lapua.
Here in Oz professional hunters actively discourage people from using 338 Win Mags on water buffalo because the bullets move too fast to stay together well and most of the time people aren't loading heavy enough bullets for the job.
I know plenty of people love their 7mm Rems, 300 and 338 Wins, not to mention the various Weatherbys, WSMs, RUMs and the new breed of Rugers but to be honest to me it seems unnecessary.
Are 416 Rigby or 404 Jeffrey belted magnums? Nope.
And yet they are 2 of the most popular African cals.
And we'd best not start on Nitro Expresses.
Now there is REAL class.  

[JJ Kelly]

I'm with you, JJ.
Although I'm not getting 2500fps out of my 270gr Speers....more around the 2315fps..

Hi Kombi,  270 speer load is 66.0 grs of BLC-2, Fed 215 primer, OAL 3.280
also my 286 gr load is 62.5 grs of BLC-2, Fed 215 primer, OAL 3.285 at 2345, I have use
up to 64 grs but getting warm.

[jcn59]

I shot a bear & a couple smallish elk at close range with the .35 Whelen, but nothing with the CZ 9.3X62.   The CZ was a light FS model but the comb was so low that I found it hard to shoot.  It sure was a nice, lightweight rifle though. 

The metric was lots more romantic though, what with starting out life as a poor man's elephant rifle in 1905 or so, but the .35 Whelen is lots more versatile with the different bullets available to the handloader.  I don't think a game animal could tell which one he was killed by.  If he could tell.

[kombi1976]

There are actually a large range of bullets for 9.3mm.
They range through 232gr, 250gr, 270gr, 286gr and 320gr.
From memory that's almost bigger than 358 cal.
I realise there are ton of FPs made in 35 cal but they're for 35 Rem and 356 Win.
They just tend to be expensive as they're made by premium companies.

[yooper77]

There are actually a large range of bullets for 9.3mm.
They range through 232gr, 250gr, 270gr, 286gr and 320gr.
From memory that's almost bigger than 358 cal.
I realise there are ton of FPs made in 35 cal but they're for 35 Rem and 356 Win.
They just tend to be expensive as they're made by premium companies.

I agree there are some .366 caliber bullets, but nowhere near the larger selection available for .338 or .358 bullets other than 10 to 20 grain more in the 300 grain bullets, not a measureable factor.  Hornady makes a lot of inexpensive, but high quality bullets for all calibers below.  Not all are expensive premium bullets.  Just do your own search on midwayusa.com. or other sites.  I buy most my bullets from gunbroker.com and save every time.

.338 bullets range from 160, 180, 185, 200, 210, 215, 225, 230, 245, 250, 265, 275, 285 to 300 grains all from various manufactures, Barnes, Berger, Bore Tech, Combined (Nosler/Winchester) Technology, Hornady, Lapua, Lazzeroni, Norma, Nosler, Remington, Sierra, Speer, Swift, and Woodleigh.  Lots of bullets are being made for the 338 Federal and any bullet is perfect for the 338-06 A-Square that are made for the 338 Winchester Magnum, 340 Weatherby Magnum, or 338 Remington Ultra Magnum.

.358 bullets range from 180, 200, 220, 225, 245, 250, 275, 280 to 310 grains all from various manufactures, A-Square, Barnes, Hornady, Hunters Supply, Nosler, Remington, Sierra, Speer, Swift, and Woodleigh.  Not all are for 35 Remington or 356 Winchester, but spire points for 358 Winchester and 35 Whelen or 350 Remington Magnum.

.366 bullets range from 232, 250, 270, 285, 286, to 320 grains all from various manufactures, A-Square, Barnes, Hornady, Lapua, Norma, Nosler, Speer, Swift, and Woodleigh.

yooper77