40 or 45 for deer hunting?

[Delbert]

Now that Hi-Point has the new 4095TS(better styling than older 4095) out, which would be a better round for deer hunting at distances of 100yds and less? It would seem that the 45cal would be, with it's larger slug for knock down power, but the 40cal seems to have much better velocity, thus better penetration. Which would you use for deer---penetration power(with shock/bleed out factors) or knock down power(wound size) between these 2 calibers for hunting.
Del

[lil_hunter12]

my personal opinion would be the .45 but i just dont like the 40 after trying my brother in laws smith and wesson 40 cal.

[navylawdog]

I wish some others would comment on this because I am curious to this as well.

navylawdog

[Kmrere42]

Hi,


From what I can remember, the formula for pistol hunting is 200gr weight @ 1000fps. minimum both.  The carbine should be able to do this with a 225 flat point. 


Magnus Bullets make a really nice wide flat point in the 45,  215gr wfn swc.  Driven at 1100 - 1200 out of the carbine would be perfect if a proper load could be developed.



Paul

[Delbert]

Yeah this is the dilima I'm running into with these 2 calibers. Using a big fat slower heavy bullet in the 45, OR going with the higher velocity of the 40S&W with a lighter bullet for the better penetration. Kinda like choosing between a 243 which has killed millions of deer with it's light bullet or a 30-30 which has a great effective range of 150yds at best.
Del

[markp]

  I would not feel overly confident of either one.  But an interesting question. If I were to attempt this I think I would go 45 with a swc bullet of not less then 220 grain. I would limit shots to 60 yards on broadside
standing still deer only.

[Bigeasy]

At handgun velocities, Bullet weight and bullet diameter are what kill.  Neither round is close to a modern centerfire rifle round in velocity induced bullet energy and dramatic bullet performance.  You can get 900 fps out of a hot .45acp load in a hand gun with a good 225 - 230 grain hollow point or hard cast bullet with a large metplate.  Out of a rifle barrel, maybe 1100 - 1200 fps.  Low intensity rounds like the .45acp to not gain as much in a rifle barrel as a higher intensity round like the .44 mag or .357 mag.  Still, a 230 grain XTP at 1150 fps is treading into .44 mag handgun performance, and should work fine at 50 yards or under, in my opinion.

Larry

[Delbert]

I'm sorry Guys, but I think there's a misunderstanding here as to what type of gun this ammo would be used in. They are NOT FOR PISTOL hunting. This is FOR a pistol caliber CARBINE. With a carbine the pistol ammo will have a higher velocity of around 200 to 500 ft/s MORE over a pistol shooting the same ammo. Hope this helps, and please get back as to what you now think as to the choice. Also with 10 shots at your disposal, a person doesn't need to have the game standing still. Just have to use common sense about where others hunters are for their safety.
Del

[sachel.45]

id go for the .45 acp with a hardcast bullet. bullet placement is key here and just because you have 10 rounds at your disposial doesn't mean you should use them. id prefer a standing still broadside shot at 50 yards and under rather than spray and pray at a running deer

[Bigeasy]

My answer, anyway, was based on use in a carbine.  A carbine length barrel does not make an auto pistol cartridge into a high power rifle cartridge.  Not even close.  That said, it is sufficient for close range, killing by punching a big hole (bullet diameter), and penetration (bullet weight).

Larry

[navylawdog]

I was wanting to know because I have the .40 cal carbine and wanted to know if it would get the job done if need be. I have some high velocity reloads that use a 200 grain hornady XTP. I can't remember what the velocity is in a handgun but I believe it is in the 1300 fps range. So in a carbine it would be a bit faster. I would think it would be like using a 10mm but with a longer barrel.

Navylawdog

[3leggedturtle]

Have an Contender Carbine with 18" bull barrell.  The WW whitebox only gain about 70FPS over a 4.5"barrell.  My handload is a  Lee 255RFN gr over 9.4 grs of HS7 it does 1050FPS this is a chronoed average of about 65 shots. Max shows 10.4 grs of HS7 with 260gr JHP but dont see how it would be anymore effective at  up 100 yards.

[Duckdog]

  It doesn't matter what gun a given bullet of a specified weight or diameter comes out of, but rather the muzzle velocity.  The 230 gr Lee RN bullet fired out of a 45 colt or 45 ACP at 950 FPS will maintain 871 ft lbs of energy @ 100 yds with a bullet drop of 9.3" if zeroed @ 50 yrds. Now, if it were sighted in @ 100 yds, it would be 4.65" high at 50 yds.

The general rule of thumb is 1000-1500 ft lbs of energy to kill a deer at a specified range, but the 45 colt almost never reaches that at any distance, but is one of the better killing calibers out there for shots less than 100 yds.  It doesn't matter what it looks like on paper, the 45 ACP @ 950 fps will kill a deer at 100 yrds if it is hit in the vitals.  The 45 colt has been around since the 1870s, so its seen some service, and again, its the speed of bullet travel and the weight/diameter that determines energy and bullet drop/raise, with bullet coeficeint added in the program to keep the computer honest and thinking.

I use these ballistic programs on my cast bullet loads in over 20 calibers and they are damn close.  Again, a 45 caliber bullet is a 45 caliber bullet, no matter where it comes out of.

That being said, I would use a min of a 230 SWC of FN lead cast bullet, as expansion is not an issue due to the diameter.

[Merle]

Have an Contender Carbine with 18" bull barrell.  The WW whitebox only gain about 70FPS over a 4.5"barrell.  My handload is a  Lee 255RFN gr over 9.4 grs of HS7 it does 1050FPS this is a chronoed average of about 65 shots. Max shows 10.4 grs of HS7 with 260gr JHP but dont see how it would be anymore effective at  up 100 yards.

Don't know if it applies to the 40 S&W, but I have seen some 9mm tests several years ago where the lighter bullet loads actually ran slower from the 995. These were standard loads, not +P. This was suspected to be due to the powder charge being calculated to completely (more or less) burn in a 4" barrel. The 124 gr did a bit better & the 147 gr actually gained a noteworthy amount, on the order of 150 ~ 200 FPS IIRC.

I'd like to see some figures comparing standard loads, +P loads and +P+ in 4" versus 995, should prove interesting!

 

[Duckdog]

I had a chart somewhere tha showed the comparable bullet velocities when fired from different length barrels, but I'd be damned to find it!  It'll smack me one when I'm not looking for it. It was interesteing reading and I did get it off of a web site somewhere.  I'll keep looking.

[gstewart44]

. Also with 10 shots at your disposal, a person doesn't need to have the game standing still. Just have to use common sense about where others hunters are for their safety.
Del

Better check your state's hunting regulations Delbert.    Most states I have hunted in allow 5 round capacity  when hunting big game with a semi-auto.    Having a magazine with more rounds than allowed is a quick way to confiscation and fines.

[Delbert]

. Also with 10 shots at your disposal, a person doesn't need to have the game standing still. Just have to use common sense about where others hunters are for their safety.
Del

Better check your state's hunting regulations Delbert.    Most states I have hunted in allow 5 round capacity  when hunting big game with a semi-auto.    Having a magazine with more rounds than allowed is a quick way to confiscation and fines.

Good point, I wasn't thinking about the ammo regulations. Thanks for bringing it up, I'll have to check with local game warden to be legal---don't want to lose hunting privileges.
Del

[mrussel]

. Also with 10 shots at your disposal, a person doesn't need to have the game standing still. Just have to use common sense about where others hunters are for their safety.
Del

Better check your state's hunting regulations Delbert.    Most states I have hunted in allow 5 round capacity  when hunting big game with a semi-auto.    Having a magazine with more rounds than allowed is a quick way to confiscation and fines.

 Can you put a plug in your magazine like you do with a shotgun when duck hunting?

[gstewart44]

you'll have to check your state regs.   In florida you must have either a permanently altered magazine that will not accept more than 5 rounds, or if it is a plug it cannot be easily removed (in the field).

[mrussel]

you'll have to check your state regs.   In florida you must have either a permanently altered magazine that will not accept more than 5 rounds, or if it is a plug it cannot be easily removed (in the field).

 If the magazine is metal,get a spare,put a plug in and then tack weld the base plate on. If its plastic,see if you can find a solvent type plastic cement,put the plug in,make sure it works,then glue the base plate on. Either that or move to Utah.

[Basicguy]

I have chronyied some rounds from my HP's. They run about 50fps less than in a 1911 or Ruger P89. I suspect it is the blow back action that reduces their speed somewhat. The carbine 9mm is 150 fps or more faster than their 9mm handgun but in itself is a bit slower than a delayed blowback gun.

I've handloaded most of the rounds for my guns and the HP carbine shoots and cycles the mouse loads as well as the +P loads.

[Casull]

It doesn't matter what gun a given bullet of a specified weight or diameter comes out of, but rather the muzzle velocity.  The 230 gr Lee RN bullet fired out of a 45 colt or 45 ACP at 950 FPS will maintain 871 ft lbs of energy @ 100 yds with a bullet drop of 9.3" if zeroed @ 50 yrds. Now, if it were sighted in @ 100 yds, it would be 4.65" high at 50 yds.

Better check your math.  A 230 grn @ 950 fps BARELY HAS ONE HALF THAT ENERGY AT THE MUZZLE, let alone at 100 yards.

[Casull]

I have some high velocity reloads that use a 200 grain hornady XTP. I can't remember what the velocity is in a handgun but I believe it is in the 1300 fps range.

I doubt that out of a .40 SW.  Those are more like 10mm or .41 mag specs.

[navylawdog]

I have made some hi-velocity reloads using the 200 grain xtp's and the velocity was in the 1200 fps range. Can't remember what powder I used though. I can't it was either 2400 or unique I believe.

Navylawdog

[Casull]

I

have made some hi-velocity reloads using the 200 grain xtp's and the velocity was in the 1200 fps range. Can't remember what powder I used though. I can't it was either 2400 or unique I believe.

Navylawdog

Interesting.  I just checked website info for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester (had it on my favorites), and the HIGHEST listed speed for a 200 grn out of a .40 S&W was 954 fps. 

[Basicguy]

1200 fps from a 40 200 grain. There is no +P in 40. Apparently you were in the 10mm load department. I don't plan on going there with a  40 glock.

[Casull]

Yep, Alliant's website doesn't list a load for a 200 grn, but did have a 180 grn at 1000 fps.  Found another website that listed a max 200 grn load with Unique at 955 fps.  A looooong way from 1300 fps (or even 1200).

[Sourdough]

Deer are thin skinned animals that are easy to kill, either one will do the job if you do yours.  I personally like .45 cal bullets.  Big hole in and usually big hole out.  If no exit at least a big hole in to let a lot of blood leak out.

[Duckdog]

It doesn't matter what gun a given bullet of a specified weight or diameter comes out of, but rather the muzzle velocity.  The 230 gr Lee RN bullet fired out of a 45 colt or 45 ACP at 950 FPS will maintain 871 ft lbs of energy @ 100 yds with a bullet drop of 9.3" if zeroed @ 50 yrds. Now, if it were sighted in @ 100 yds, it would be 4.65" high at 50 yds.
_____________________
Better check your math.  A 230 grn @ 950 fps BARELY HAS ONE HALF THAT ENERGY AT THE MUZZLE, let alone at 100 yards.
 
____________________

Woops. I was looking at the velocity on my program, and not muzzle energy.  It starts at 461 ft pounds and retains 388 ft pounds at 100 yds. The sighting info is correct.  On paper it looks pretty dismal, but I have dumped deer with a 45 colt loaded to that same velocity out to 100 yds and they don't make it far.  Hope I didn't throw you over the edge Casull. If you have the info, post it.

[navylawdog]

My bad... It was a .40 I was remembering but it was Vihtavuori N-105 that I was using and it was around 1150 fps with 200 grain bullets. Must have gotten the velocity confused with the .357 sig loads I used to make for the same gun (had two barrels). Wish I still had that gun. I miss it.

Navylawdog