air rifle

[LabRat2k3]

Any of you have a good quality air rifle in your EOTW cache? You can; carry a lot of ammo for not much weight, take squirrel, rabbits and birds with it, save your powder for larger game or self defense, and not give your position away with every shot. Lewis and Clark carried air rifles with them for these reasons. So do any of you have one and if so which one?

[don heath]

Diana 48, but most used is a newish Webley pistol- takes doves nicely and which are our main 'small game'. I prefer air pistol because it is easy to pack and leaves my hands free and gives me the weight allowance for a proper rifle.

An old and wise Selous scout taught me the trick with the air pistol- on a week long patrol it was alot easier to hump some rice and cerial and shoot your own meat for dinner than carry full 'rat packs'. 

[GatCat]

I think that the old Sheridan 5mm would be a real good choice. Rugged, simple, been around forever. Besides the uses you named, also good for killing pest birds out of fruit tree's, gardens, etc. ( throw them in the cook pot also ).
Mark

[Victor3]

I think that the old Sheridan 5mm would be a real good choice. Rugged, simple, been around forever. Besides the uses you named, also good for killing pest birds out of fruit tree's, gardens, etc. ( throw them in the cook pot also ).
Mark

 That would be my choice too. I've had one for 40 years. About 20 years ago I had it rebuilt/souped up by an airgun guy I know. I've also done some of my own custom work on it...







 Some advantages of the Benjamin/Sheridan pumps for survival purposes are the brass construction (no rust), variable power (mine's had the internals beefed up to allow 14 pumps rather than the factory max of 9), and the minimal maintenance required. With a few minor tweaks, the things are bullet proof.

 Spring guns are good too, but many models require service (spring and piston seal mainly) after only ~2000 shots. You only get one velocity with a spring gun, and the more powerful rifles are not very pleasant to shoot IMO.

[don heath]

Victor - now that is something I have never seen! We used to see the very occasional crossman air rifle, but they were never particularly accurate and were in low demand compared to the traditional under-leaver rifles. The break barreled CZ rifles were fairly popular as they were pretty accurate and cheep, but in a country where every time you shot at something it was a competition against somebody else, accuracy won over all else!

[Couger]

I once had a Sheridan Blue Streak .....  It was indeed a SG slayer; squirrels, doves, valley quail

Where does one get ammo for one nowadays?  

And what do current "ammo" look like?  The old conical Sheridan pellets are "rare."  



And where does one go Victor, to make the modds and improvements you alluded to?  Please expound!!??

Thanks!



P.S.  -  I also once had an RWS45 that was quite the shooter.  Stupidly sold it in college for "why" I can't remember!  177-cal pellets at 1100fps was no slouch of a spring-gun!

Presently I use CBcaps, altho I see a need for both CBcaps AND a pnuematic or spring-gun if one can afford both - to "feed" but also maintain and store (safely - for that SHTF rainy day!)

My first (and single) choice however, would be the more versatile .22rim with a broad assortment of ammo.  Although, never been in an OA where small game abounded like Don H. alluded too.  A pnuematic or spring-pistol could indeed be handy collecting doves and quail!  Or grouse?      

[Victor3]

Victor - now that is something I have never seen! We used to see the very occasional crossman air rifle, but they were never particularly accurate and were in low demand compared to the traditional under-leaver rifles. The break barreled CZ rifles were fairly popular as they were pretty accurate and cheep, but in a country where every time you shot at something it was a competition against somebody else, accuracy won over all else!

 Don - European and American airguns kinda took separate paths. In the US, we've had a plethora of firearms widely available for generations, so airguns didn't progress much. American made airguns didn't have much of a market abroad. Even in the US they were not taken seriously other than as 'toys' or to introduce kids to the shooting sports. For that reason, with few exceptions, they have been cheaply made, mass-produced and nearly disposable.

 Europe on the other hand has been (and still is) producing high quality airguns since at least as far back as the 1700's. The air rifle Lewis & Clark used is now generally believed to be an Austrian Girandoni...

http://www.beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm

 As you note Don, most US made airguns are not generally as accurate as the average European one. European airguns have for the most part been designed and built as 'real' guns. We've only had them in quantity in the US since Robert Beeman started importing and marketing them here in the 1980's.

 That said, I still love my examples of the old classic US airguns.  

 Original condition 1930's Daisy Mod 25...



 Custom Crosman 1377...



 Crosman 38 combat...



 A somewhat rare Crosman 451 Military (6 shot 22 auto)



 Crosman M1 carbine...



 Crosman MKII...



 Custom Crosman 160...



 And one I should have kept; a very rare WWII era Palmer Anti-Aircraft BB machine gun trainer...

[Victor3]

I once had a Sheridan Blue Streak .....  It was indeed a SG slayer; squirrels, doves, valley quail

Where does one get ammo for one nowadays?  

And what do current "ammo" look like?  The old conical Sheridan pellets are "rare."  

And where does one go Victor, to make the modds and improvements you alluded to?  Please expound!!??

Thanks!

 Couger - Mine is an early Blue Streak. I had it rebuilt by Tim McMurray of Mac1 airguns in Gardena, CA. He's come up with a lot of uprgades for US-made airguns over the years. He calls his modified rifle the "Steroid Streak". He also modifies the similar currently produced rifles. Be aware that his website hasn't been updated in a long time. Best to call him if you want current info; he's usually backed up on emails and sometimes doesn't respond quickly.

http://www.mac1airgun.com/steriodags.html

 The external modifications (stock shape, brass buttplate, sights, etc.) are my own doing.

 20 cal (5mm) pellets are available in a few styles (including the old cylindrical 'trash can' pellet) and can be found at major online airgun distributors like Pyramid Air or Compasseco.

[Couger]

Couger - Mine is an early Blue Streak. I had it rebuilt by Tim McMurray of Mac1 airguns in Gardena, CA. He's come up with a lot of uprgades for US-made airguns over the years. He calls his modified rifle the "Steroid Streak". He also modifies the similar currently produced rifles. Be aware that his website hasn't been updated in a long time. Best to call him if you want current info; he's usually backed up on emails and sometimes doesn't respond quickly.

http://www.mac1airgun.com/steriodags.html

 The external modifications (stock shape, brass buttplate, sights, etc.) are my own doing.

 20 cal (5mm) pellets are available in a few styles (including the old cylindrical 'trash can' pellet) and can be found at major online airgun distributors like Pyramid Air or Compasseco. 

Further THANKS!  Victor       And thanks for that source.  Are you also aware of any "specialists" who can do similar modds on spring guns?  (as well?)

And in .20 cal, what projectile is your favorite?  Victor?  (please expound a little if you would please    )

[Victor3]

 Couger - We're going a bit off topic here, so further discussion (after this) should be via PM or on the dedicated airgun forum. I'd be happy to help you with any questions.

 I do my own work on spring guns; they're pretty simple. Many common repair parts can be purchased here...

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm

 One spring gun guy that many hold in high regard is Dave Slade...

http://www.airgunwerks.com/tunes.html

 Diagrams and repair instructions for most common spring guns can be found online here and there.

 On the 20 cal pellets, I mainly use the old cylindrical ones in the yellow plastic box because I have a bunch. They're pretty good. However, the standard shuttlecock (diabolo) style will give an edge in accuracy, especially at longer ranges.

[Couger]

Thanks Victor.  I'm not going to worry too much at this time about the finer details of what you've already answered for me.   

But like i mentioned previously, I used to have an RWS45 which I thought was an excellent indoor spring gun, although it was a big gun and "long" like they often are.

For the kind of applications like LabRat originally alluded to, what are a few "good survivalist" airguns?

Any specific Models?

Brands?

Are there any carbine-ish or shorter-barreled models that would work well for a survivalist, "self sufficiency" type?

And in particualr, are the @Gamo brand airguns any good?  Locally that brand is pushed pretty hard where I live.  Thanks.

[vacek]

Beeman FWB124 at .177 Caliber.  I have had it for nearly 30 years.  It put a lot of bunnies on the table back in the 80's when money was tighter.  The wife would hunt and I would follow doing the skinning and butchering.   One sunny winter day she knocked down 11 bunnies in less than an hour.... all head shots.  My kinda girl.  I do my best not to p..s her off. .

We have also taken a lot of bobwhite over the years with that gun. I have never had to repair it although I have considered sending it in just for a retune.  I don't know if it needs it, it still shoots great but for preventative maintenance.

[LabRat2k3]

Those Sheridan and Benjamin rifles are more affordable that I would have thought, and are a pretty good looking set up too. I do like the pump models better. I still have a old crossman 1377 packed away somewhere, maybe I should dig it out and fab me a stock up for it similar to the one Victor3 has on his. It wouldn't be as good as a true rifle but getting something you can use without having to spend any cash is always a plus.

[Victor3]

I still have a old crossman 1377 packed away somewhere, maybe I should dig it out and fab me a stock up for it similar to the one Victor3 has on his.

 If your 1377 has the steel breech, it's superior overall to the newer models. I'd hang onto it. It's inexpensive to rebuild and will last forever if you take minimal care of it.

 You could buy a stock for $25. My Son has this one on his 1377. It's well made and very light. My wood one is kinda heavy...

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_1399_Custom_Shoulder_Stock/198

 The 1377 with a stock would be a good backpack/survival airgun. Easy to pump, small, light and can be used as a handgun with the original grip on it. I knew a guy who kept one in the trunk of his car so he always had something to plink and hunt starlings with.

[Victor3]

...I used to have an RWS45 which I thought was an excellent indoor spring gun, although it was a big gun and "long" like they often are.

For the kind of applications like LabRat originally alluded to, what are a few "good survivalist" airguns?

Are there any carbine-ish or shorter-barreled models that would work well for a survivalist, "self sufficiency" type?

And in particualr, are the @Gamo brand airguns any good?  Locally that brand is pushed pretty hard where I live.  Thanks.

 I had an RWS (Diana) 45 carbine in the 80's. Like you, I thought it was kinda bulky, even with the short barrel. I was planning on shaving all the extra wood off of the bottom of the euro-style stock but traded it for something instead.

 One nice thing about spring rifles is that they're not barrel length sensitive as far as velocity goes; they develop their power in one short pulse. I've seen some like the Beeman R9 shortened to 10" with an increase in velocity over the standard bbl length.

 So by chopping the bbl on most spring rifles you can make a nice carbine without the velocity penalty seen with pneumatic or Co2 rifles. Hard to cock a break-bbl with too short of a bbl (lever) though, and you lose some sight radius unless using optics.

 I like this Chinese side-lever gun and have three variations of it. Surprisingly, they're very accurate. I plan on chopping the bbl to 8" on one when I get a chance...

http://www.airgundepot.com/bam-b3.html

 You can get the same action in a conventional stock here...

http://www.archerairguns.com/QB58-Chinese-Air-Rifle-p/qb58.htm

 Though they're a bit crude, some air rifles the Chinese have come out with in the past 20 years are OK quality and might be good for survival use. Many are copies of Diana, FWB, HW, Anschutz, etc. designs.

 Some however are original designs like this tiny Co2 rifle I picked up a while back...







 IZH-Baikal (Russia) has also come up with a few neat carbine designs that are imported here.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/IZH-Baikal_MP-514K/1368

 On Gamo, I don't care for them. As far as I know they all now share the same absolutely horrible trigger. Can't get parts for them in the US; if something needs fixing you have to return it to Gamo. They did however make a cute little 20 shot break-barrel repeater (I believe they called it the "Surviv-air" or something) about 25 years ago. I sold this one a couple years back...

[Rex in OTZ]

I purchased a Chinese B3 underlever in .22, thought that it would be a tough customer, had shot a stray dog crapping on my front yard, found the undeformed pelley laying by where the dog was standing the range was 10 yards, will the .22 Kill something? Mine wouldent pierce the skin of a black lab with a Superdome, Im not so shure It would anchor a critter if needed.
definately not a long range weapon (20yds) on anything bigger than a cat.

Buy quality.

[Victor3]

 Yeah, the B3-1 underlever is about the worst airgun I've ever seen. I took one apart once. If you think the outside looks bad you should see the internals. Not a good choice to rely on for survival purposes.

 The .22 Superdome is a heavy pellet. Low-powered spring rifles don't generate a lot of velocity with heavy pellets, so mid to lightweight pellets are used by guys who shoot springers a lot. Heavy pellets also wear out the piston spring prematurely.

 Quality airguns are nice but for me, a really quality one means a $300+ European model. Not many want to pay that much, and the mid-priced guns (Gamo, etc.) often only look 'high quality.' So the 'better' quality Chinese clones are a good value for us poor folk IMO. 

 In reality, most any reasonable quality, medium power air rifle/pistol will kill birds and other small animals if you can hit them in the noggin with it. I guess that's the main thing to look for in a "survival" airgun.

[Couger]

I know that high quality .20 and .25 cal airguns are favorites by shooters who can afford high-quality airguns in those bores, BUT WHY  isn't the .177 caliber the best choice for survivalists and self-suffciency types?

Many times over the years I've heard that europeans strictly regulate such airguns because they're alledgedly so effective to poach game even as large as deer?  What I heard is that a .177cal pellet launched at 1000fps or more can easily-enough pierce a deer's skull.

Plus as long as a bunnie or squirrel or similar prey is shot in the vitals, won't it [fairly] quickly bleed out?

When I look at candidate-models to choose when (considering) buying a survival airgun I too group them buy their price tags.  I'm not "wealthy,"  but will pay $300 or so for a good gun!  $200 it seems is where real-quality choices begin.  My opinion of course.

Also adding an optic requires still more sacrifice $$$.   

[Victor3]

I know that high quality .20 and .25 cal airguns are favorites by shooters who can afford high-quality airguns in those bores, BUT WHY  isn't the .177 caliber the best choice for survivalists and self-suffciency types?

 Actually, 20 & 25 are the least popular common airgun calibers. 177 is king worldwide. 22 is popular in the US (though still behind the 177), mainly because 22 rimfire is so familiar here.

 IMO, 177 is the best choice for a survival-type airgun. Shoots flatter at a given velocity so accuracy is more easily obtained. Airgun pellets of any caliber, generally retaining very low energy at the target, need to be precisely placed for a kill. 177 beats out larger diameter pellets over longer ranges in the accuracy department (disregarding wind) while shedding less of a percentage in velocity.

[vacek]

I fully agree on the .177 at at least 800 fps.  At 25 yards with a good quality gun you can easily get head shots and they kill quickly.  Even a good body shot brings down a bunny. 

The key to airguns is penetration not shock.  You get the best penetration with a .177 pointed pellet.  It is what we used to put  meat on the table.  For starlings I love the Beeman hollow point.  Drops them like a rock.  Spend the money on a good accurate dependable spring action European or quality airgun.  They last and last, no pumping, no cartridges, just cock aim and fire.  I wore out every pump pellet gun I ever had, although I never had a good Benjamin or Sheridan and therefore am a poor judge on that. 

[Couger]

Thanks for the replies ..... As iI digest the info given ......   

But another twist to the thread's topic, WHAT OF PELLETS (and designs) ARE BEST?

I believe at least one company makes a .177 cal semi wadcutter-hollowpoint!  Many of them make pointed I realize a pellet may not provide much shock, but if a pellet penetrates deeply into a critter and a semi-pointed/semi-expanding expands or "upsets" enough to do more than just "ice pick" its way in, seems to me that the larger and more damaged the wound channel, the more likely to humanely kill the game.

In addition, solid lead BB's are sometimes available.  Are solid lead BB's effective projectiles?  Thanks!

[Victor3]

 For a medium-power survival use air rifle, the best pellet is probably what most experienced air gun hunters use; a round-nose, diabolo style pellet. There are various reasons for this style that have to do with physics/ballistics peculiar to airguns (at many points very different than firearms).

 They make polymer-tipped pellets, http://www.predatorpellets.com/ hollow points, etc, but you won't see the benefits unless you use expensive, high-powered pre-charged pneumatic rifles. The support system (separate pump, compressor or scuba tank) required for such rifles doesn't lend them to survival purposes IMO. Something self-contained like a spring or pump rifle is better I think.

 I use round balls for plinking and short range hunting because they're so easy to load in my bolt action Co2 guns. I can put a bunch in my pocket, pull one out and not have to take my eyes off of the target to orient it properly into the chamber. Very useful. Also, balls aren't as prone to damage as thin-skirted pellets. They have a lousy BC compared to a standard pellet though, so not very good at longer ranges. Can't use them in spring guns; the seal created by a 'normal' pellet is required in the design to prevent damage to the gun.

[rlm2007x]

I bought a Chinese air rifle in .177 caliber at a gun show a while back for like $25.00.  It sat in a closet for a few months before I finally took it out to shoot it.  The first time I took it to the range I noticed the pellets weren't making it to the target at 20 yards.  They'd go about half way and fall to the ground.  Upon further inspection I noticed the rubber seals had disintegrated.  It went into the trash shortly thereafter.  What a piece of junk.  Robert

[jlwilliams]

  I like air guns for this sort of gun.  A couple of big advantages.  One being they are not 'real' guns in the eyes of the law.  That means you can have one in places where a 22 would get you in trouble.  I keep a Sheradan 22 pump up pistol in my backpack.  If I get lost over night, at least I can eat a tweety bird or a squirrel.  Another up-side to the 'not a gun' thing is barrel length.  I put a folding stock from a Tipman paintball gun onto a 1377 that I converted to 22 with a steel breach.  Handy little bugger, but I haven't had a chance to really play with it yet.  The idea is to make something to fill the same niche as the Sheradan pistol only with more rifle like capabilities.  I'd love a a 10" barreled folding stock 10-22, but that's a more legally complicated item.

  No doubt in my mind that an airgun is a viable 'survivalist' gun.  The bulk of what you can really count on eating is small critters like chipmunks and birds.  A quiet, light weight pellet gun that you can actually have with you is better than the shotgun you don't have on hand all the time because you can only have it with you during hunting season.  Even in places where an airgun isn't really allowed, you are more likely not going to get in big trouble having it.  "Sorry, I didn't know it was a problem.  I'll put it away"  Try that with a 22 pistol around here, you'll be explaining it to the judge.

[LabRat2k3]

That's a good point, not going to draw as much unwanted attention as with a "real gun". I got out my old 1377, it isn't that old, maybe 10 years so its not a metal breach. I think I'm going to put a stock, metal breach, some sort of optic, and maybe work the trigger a bit. I think it should be a fun, inexpensive project that just may come in handy someday. I do think i will look at getting one of those Benjamin/Sheridan rifles, my son will need something to get started on. He's only 8 months old now but it's never to early, best to be prepared, and that's a good as excuse as any to get one.   

[Couger]

Next "big" gun show I attend I will spending several minutes (actually considerably more than that!) at the booth where one fellow does a booming (and somewhat monopolistic) business selling airguns and supplies.

He's the only airgun-only vendor at the show. 

I definitely need to re-eja-ma-cate myself about airguns!  (non-Gamo types  )  I like the idea of a 1377 or 1322-type airpistol if the accuracy's there along with enough velocity to dispatch squirrels, bunnies and grouse at normal ranges.  There is indeed a niche or two for a Fienwerkbeau or Beeman R9, or another Sheridan.

Does anyone use an airpistol for training and keeping your pistol skills up to date!!??  (sounds like the title for another thread       )

[Rex in OTZ]

Study of springer maintenance and tuneing, after reading up on my BAM I found that it is a accurate rifle, I can replace the main spring and ther is some materials on getting higher velocty out of them like stacking shims, and repaceing the seal.

[jlwilliams]

Labrat, Crosman sells the steel breach as an accessory part on their web sight.  It's about $35 or $40.  It's also got a dovetail for a scope, should you want to put one on. 

  Incidentally, that' how I converted it to 22.  I just ordered the 22 breach and put it all together with a 22 airgun barrel from another parts pile.  That took a little minor fitting, but if you did it with a Crosman barrel it would probably all go together with a screwdriver.  Just in case anybody was thinking about a similar conversion.

[teamnelson]

Just picked up a Ruger Air Hawk Elite for $75 at Sports Authority. Normal $200, marked down to $150 for box damage and grr on stock. Yellow stickered at 50% off. I picked up the box without thinking, then carried it around the store while I thought about it. Figured i'd kick myself if I didn't ... I've got to many stories about the one that got away. Nice ambidextrous thumbhole stock, 3-9x40 scope (much nicer than the ones I have on my .22s), 1000 FPS, muzzle stabilizer, 2 stage adjustable trigger. It's heavy though.

Got home about 20 mins ago, put the scope on, set up a back stop from some old fleet manuals, and a plastic can in front. Shoots 2" low, 2" left, but grouped cloverleaf from a seated position using el cheapo pointed pellets. Oh yeah! Tomorrow I'll set up some targets and dial in the scope.

I can definitely see this as a game taker!

[LabRat2k3]

Good find, you can't go wrong with a deal like that. Sounds like you may have just found another piece for your EOTWAWKI kit.