So Tired of the Crap

[Swampman]

The best thing about a 110 is that you can install different tomato stakes on the same pot metal receiver.  It's always been a department store rifle.

[jcn59]

Can't do that with a Remmy, can you.  

I think we have to consider that there are two kinds of Remmys.  There's the kind that gun stores carry, and there those flat black, plastic stock 700s that China mart used to contract for and sell for $339..   Let's not forget those 870 "express" master pieces either.

My own personal experience, is that I have owned many different brands and types of firearms, and they all have been pretty nice.  My favorites right now are Tikkas and my Icon, but the Remingtons, Savages, Winchesters, Mausers, Brownings, Mannlicher Schoenauers, and Rugers have been nice, too.  I won't mention all the shotguns and handguns that have passed over my plate.  They were all satisfactory or better.

So, when is that "shootoff" at your place, Swampy?

[diggler1833]

Diggler....I voiced my opinion without accusing anyone of smoking anything.  Maybe you could try it when you post your opinions.   Builds character.

Was just trying to figure out what was the reasoning behind your statement about the Savage 110 being able to outshoot any other American bolt centerfire.

Not going to deny the bolt handle on the Remmys being a weak point.  Know of two guys who have broken them off (soldered on).  However, both guys were using their rifles in tactical matches (dont' see a lot of Savages there do we).  

Got enough character built up in my life, don't need anymore.

[hunt-m-up]

I think we have to consider that there are two kinds of Remmys.  There's the kind that gun stores carry, and there those flat black, plastic stock 700s that China mart used to contract for and sell for $339..   Let's not forget those 870 "express" master pieces either.

I think the reason they bought Marlin was to learn how to put an economical finish on a gun. They would have been better off sending the 870 Express out with the barrel in the white and the stock unfinished and included a magic marker and some shoe polish to finish your own. The 870 Wingmaster is a thing of beauty, hard to believe they are from the same company. Remington seems to get in trouble when they cut corners, for example 597 and 710. They make some fine firearms, but have also made some crap just as others have.
BTW, look at a Remington 770 and Savage Edge together, some definite similiarities. 

[Spanky]

They sell Remington's at department stores too.



Spanky

[ShottieMan]

BTW, look at a Remington 770 and Savage Edge together, some definite similiarities. 

As it's been said before...WHAT was SAVAGE smoking when they came up with the "EDGE"! I understand it was made/built to compete with the lower priced rifles on the market but DARN..... LOL

and as for diggler...let me try and help jcn out a bit...

7-8 times out of 10 an "out-of-the box" factory Savage will outshoot any other "FACTORY, OUT-OF-THE BOX" centerfire! 9-10 out of 10 times, it will outshoot the Remington 700! After all, what is Savage known for.

As for Tactical matches, where is the proof to back your statement?

I personally won't deny that Remington makes a decent rifle...Savage just makes a BETTER ONE! LOL

[diggler1833]

For the sake of adding to my post count, I'll humor a bit. 

Savage makes a decent rifle.  I liked the idea of the LRPV until they started throwing in the left bolt/right eject, right bolt/dual eject, no bolt/quasi eject, or whatever other gimmick they can throw in there on how you can load and unload a bolt-action rifle.  I still may own one some day if I can find a regular bolt/port combination.

Their target series also seems like a good deal for an entry package that can be competitive in long-range shooting.  I've seen in more than one place where they have done well for themselves in competition.

As far as 7-8 out of 10 out of the box Salvages being more accurate than out of the box other American rifles (you know, the ones you qualify as "American"...Remington 770, High Point, etc...) ...I'll need to see your proof.  Something tells me that if you actually throw in all of the American rifle manufacuters you'd be a bit surprised.

If you want proof in the tactical matches...look it up, it isn't hiding from you.

Both companies make beater rifles as well.  It is not a fact that can be overlooked.

I really, honestly think I'm done with this one now.  Hopefully by the time I check this page again we can be past the Remington VS. Savage debate.

[ShottieMan]

For the sake of adding to my post count, I'll humor a bit. 

We ALL love a little humor!

Savage makes a decent rifle.  I liked the idea of the LRPV until they started throwing in the left bolt/right eject, right bolt/dual eject, no bolt/quasi eject, or whatever other gimmick they can throw in there on how you can load and unload a bolt-action rifle.  I still may own one some day if I can find a regular bolt/port combination.

They do make a right bolt/port target action ya know! As for all the other combos...check out some of the BR actions...same choices there!

Their target series also seems like a good deal for an entry package that can be competitive in long-range shooting.  I've seen in more than one place where they have done well for themselves in competition.

Agreed!

As far as 7-8 out of 10 out of the box Salvages being more accurate than out of the box other American rifles (you know, the ones you qualify as "American"...Remington 770, High Point, etc...) ...I'll need to see your proof.  Something tells me that if you actually throw in all of the American rifle manufacuters you'd be a bit surprised.

Read your quote below and "practice what you preach"!

If you want proof in the tactical matches...look it up, it isn't hiding from you.

I did look it up and for some reason can't seem to find ANY results of tactical matches that list rifle make WHICH is why I asked for your guidance to a result sheet listing rifle makes!

Both companies make beater rifles as well.  It is not a fact that can be overlooked.

I know and understand that...WHAT I was saying in my post referring to the EDGE is "What was Savage thinking?" The rifle is DOWN RIGHT UGLY and there is NO REASON for it to exist with the Stevens line around!

I really, honestly think I'm done with this one now.  Hopefully by the time I check this page again we can be past the Remington VS. Savage debate.

Honestly, I was throwing fuel on the fire! Take note of the LOL and Smilies on my previous post! That tends to mean "Joking or being FUNNY!" It gets to be funny sometimes that the Remmy fans can dish it out but can't take it! Me, Personally, am a lover of ALL firearms...I just prefer Savage's when it comes to rifles! Shall I dare admit that I am a GLOCK fan and nothing honestly compares to a GLOCK!

Anyways, friends?

[mcwoodduck]

Shottie,
Don't start the Tupper ware gun vs. steel Vs. Alloy frame stuff.
We all know that the Sig P22? series are the best.   

[351 power]

swampman is loyal to a  fault. that's fine. but constant belittling of other peoples' preferences doesn't show much maturity or respect to others

[ShottieMan]

Shottie,
Don't start the Tupper ware gun vs. steel Vs. Alloy frame stuff.
We all know that the Sig P22? series are the best.   

 

Glad SOMEONE has a sense of humor yet... (and I won't deny your choice as a possible contender! LOL)

[diggler1833]

ShottieMan,

Was not trying to come off as being up in arms.  That is the problem with typing instead of being able to B.S. with a few beers in hand.  I'm not mad, and hope that nobody else is.

We seem to agree on a lot (minus a few key points).

For looking up who is running what, it takes a bit.  Without having to rely on my word, go to the Snipers Hide.com forums.  Once in there you can go to the Tactical Competition section and start reading on who did what, and where.  I guess I take it for granted since I know a few of those guys and know what they are running.  Like I said, the Remmy 700 still has a decent showing, but more and more are using actions made by Surgeon, Stiller, Bat, Lawton, Badger, GAP, etc...  A few years ago you saw twice as many Remington 700 based builds, but as the market has developed, and new products that possibly offer an edge (especially in "coolness") more die-hard tactical guys are moving in that direction (especially the ones who can afford to).  Another great place to look up how shooters are doing is actual custom rifle maker's websites (Terry Cross @ KMW, GA Precision...etc...etc...).

There also is a 58-59 page section where guys post pictures of what they are running in the Bolt Action Rifles section "Precision Rifles...Show 'Em".

There are a few guys on that board who don't really need to be there, but there are a lot of actual Gu-Rus who have a lot of military/police experience that post there.  I'm not, nor ever have been a sniper, don't claim to be, but have shot a lot of competition and have a pretty decent background as a marksmanship instructor.  Now, in my free time I've had to resort to becoming a ballistics nerd, and showing up here and there on the internet to make a post or two.

I like this place, mainly because it seems like a slightly older crowd, and I'm the oldest 31yr old that I know (just don't ask my wife). 

So post away, I'll do the same, and maybe someday I'll be able to put one of my factory barreled action Remingtons on the line next to one of your Savages.  Sorry, but I can't keep from messing with my rifles, so I don't have an untouched Remington.  The only rifle that I haven't messed with (to include my Savages) is actually a Ruger #1B in .22-250 that I picked up as a teenager.

Have a good one to all...I'm going to the range now.

[Brithunter]

  the reason those sniper types use Remington 700's is beacuse you can throw most fo the factory bits in the bin and using the basic bit of tube throw lots of money at it and buy "custom" bits to make it perform as it should have done in the first place. I liken them to a Furd escort. Throw enough custom bits on it and you have a proper car 

The benchresters who use Rem 700's etc usually shring a huge bit of tube over it to stiffen it up thats' just how good they are  .

If'n you really want a sniper rifle then why not buy one after all AI will sell you one as will Sako with the TRG, Tikk3 with the T3 Tacticool  and Sauer with their version, the name escapes me right now and the RPA series of precision rifles  . I am sure there are American sniper rifles not based ot the Rem tube but as I have little interest in sniper rifles I couldn't say who.

We have a littlle "Tacticool" cliche at the club  hence I get to see the "Snipers" types there. I had to laugh as we had the annual Iron sight competition the other month and oen of the "Tacticool" crown spent £300 ona  set of irons for his Sako TRG and thought he would walk the comp. I heard him trying to badger the scorers into allowing a higher value for one of his shots as it meant he thought he had one. Trouble is not eveyone had shot. I had brought along a 40 year old Sportco M44 single shot target rifle with it's P-H 5C rear sight and tunnel foresight and beat him by 2 points  and I am not the best shot by any means. I had a total of about 25 rounds brought about two years ago, it being German MEN Nato sec ammo. I used all but the 10 required to shoot the comp to zero and make sure it was right.

Someone said about a possible shoot of. I said nope there is not shoot off as I had just the right amount of ammo to shoot the comp. Their faces were a picture  anyway it was a moot point as after the scoring there was two points difference. Oh Mr TRG was not impressed in fact I don't think he likes me at all as this is not the first time I have pipped him in comps and I don't shoot them very often having not much interest in them. More interested in my load development and getting them right for my Stalking (Deer Huniting)Hmmmm this reminds me I must buy some more nato 7.62 spec ammo as i have none at all right now.

[diggler1833]

So your Furd Escort analogy doesn't apply to other manufacturers as well?    Maybe you can educate me on all of the "proper" rifles that run under about $1800 USD/1200 pounds.  If you handed me a plastic stocked, plastic magazine Tikka and told me it was a proper rifle, you'd get it promptly returned to your hands, and I've seen plenty Tikkas to know that they generally shoot well.

While I enjoy my Remington 700s, I'm not ignorant to the fact that there have been a lot of technological advancements to firearms since 1962.  Even a couple of the more well-known custom action makers (Surgeon, and GA Precision, there are more but I don't feel like looking at the moment) base their actions off of the old Remington 700.  Granted, the tolerances are much improved, and extra devolpment was put where it was needed, but it still is a 700 footprint.

I would love to own an AI or TRG, but unless I become wealthy I don't see it in my future. 

In my book though, owning a precision rifle does not make it a "sniper rifle".  Unless you are using your rifle to shoot people, it isn't a sniper rifle.  The Airsoft/Tacticool market has taken off rather quickly and is now filled with individuals who often get this point mistaken.

The last two paragraphs I fail to fully comprehend.  I'm not a smart man, so unless your point was to make it a point to inform us of your extraordinary shooting skills I don't see anything valid.  I'm sure there was something else, and I missed it. 

There is more to being a successful competitive shooter than just good gear, you know that (you just used two paragraphs to explain it), but a good shooter with inferior equipment will not beat a good shooter with equal skill and superior equipment.  You are just lucky TRG guy doesn't know how to shoot as well as you do.

Don't forget that you might not be the only one here though that has had a bit of a background in competitive shooting.

[Brithunter]

The last bit was in light heart as is not all the gizmos make one able to shoot and asIi said I am nto the best shot there is  .

As for the Tikka T3 I have to say I don't care much for the Berretta design myself and I simply detest plastic stocks  . For myself I find most really modern production frankly quite awful. Hence my onsession with the older rifles. Proper walnut and blued steel, or should I say polished and blued steel, and I doubt I could tell you the retail price on any of them as they hold no interest for me. I am fully aware of the difference between a wanna be and a real sniper or even counter sniper. A clubIi used to belong to the secretaries son is a servinf sniper with the British Army and a stalker I used to stalk deer with is a Police counter sniper based at one of Londons airports. Having moved location a few years ago it's too far and takes too long to belong to the club and stalk with him now.

I am not a fan of tube steel recievers even ones that carry no firing stess even though that Sportco M44 is built like that. The three lug bolt locks direct intot eh barrel. It was cheap and has a connection to Parker-Hale who were the agents/importers for them so i brought it only later finding out it hasa tube steel reciever. I may well sell it on as I have a P-H 1200TX (Mauser action) coming soon.

Oh I hardly call the club annual iron sight comp "Competitive background" real competitions area total nother ball game. I did do a little Practical Pistol before the ban here but that's different again. Rifle comps, real ones I find rather tedious. Finally one does not need to be wealthy to obtain either an AI rifle or a TRG. One just has to want it enough to forego other things. I live on a very low fixed income and go without some things that others seem to find important to be able to shoot and purchase my toys. Huntig around keeping ones eyes open and being in the right place at the right time helps too.! The P-H 1200TX is costing £115 with it's irons and 170 rounds of Belgian sniper grade ammunition............................ was just in the right palce at the right time.

[DennyRoark]

There are no (and never have been) any quality issues.

I beg to differ...I worked for Remington in 1997-1998 and during that summer, all firearm production was suspended for a period of a few months (I quit before production resumed) for quality issues at all different levels.  I bought an 870 youth combo for my kid during that period that is a piece of crap!  My Wing Master Magnum, produced in 1992 is possibly one of the best they ever produced.  Both ends of the spectrum in 5 years.  With that said, my cabinet is about half full of Rem's and IMHO, the 870 is the best shotgun ever produced.  Also, in their exploding barrel class action suit, I got ARO $27 settlement.  Hope mine never blows up, 'cause that sure didn't buy me a new one!

[theduke]

Remington rifles like model 700 and 788 are good shooters.  Their shotguns are the jamminnes guns ever owned. I have had model 1100 and model 1187.  The 1187 had the ring around gas port come off.  Both kept clean and jammed.  I even had a 870 pump that jammed and I was shooting with guy from remington.  He said it was cheap federal shells and gave me some remingtons and they jammed also.  This gun was like new.  I live in Rockingham Co. NC where remington upper management are and go to gun shops around here and you want see many remington shotguns cause people want buy jamming guns.  They moved these employees in from up north and hired very few from south.  Don't do much for county.

[Swampman]

I love Remington products.  That includes Marlin & H&R.  I buy new ones and examine many of them on the shelf.  The quality is very very high and it always has been.  The Model 700 is the best centerfire boltgun made and the 870 cannot be beat at any price.  I'm glad Remington bought up a bunch of companies and I wish they'd move them all down south.  We like jobs, do good work, and only ask for a fair wage.

There are no (and never have been) any quality issues.  I'll keep buying Remington, Marlins, and H&R products because they have no equals.

I just want to get this back on track

[crash87]

So, when is that "shootoff" at your place, Swampy?

I'd like to know too. Sooooo, is it by invitation only or can anybody come? Got a couple of junky Winchesters to bring, go one to one with those accurate Marlins, and just for fun, will shoot cast, sighting equipment? Peeps of course. Who would want to telescope a lever anyway?

The best thing about a 110 is that you can install different tomato stakes on the same pot metal receiver.  It's always been a department store rifle.

Oh Yea,..... back on track! 

  I'm glad Remington bought up a bunch of companies and I wish they'd move them all down south.  We like jobs, do good work, and only ask for a fair wage

My question to you, again, just where is that dividing line between north and south? I've asked you this before without a response. I'm curious to know where I stand. 
                                                        CRASH87
 

[Swampman]

No place to shoot at my place.  I don't do handicaps you may handicap yourself (with peeps, cast, and Winchesters) if you like.  We shoot our choice or not at all.

You have heard of the "Mason Dixon Line" or maybe not if you are from the north.

[DennyRoark]

He said it was cheap federal shells and gave me some remingtons and they jammed also

The youth combo I spoke of above absolutely will not shoot Federals or Winchester shells.  It does shoot Rems well.  I believe that during the quality issue time frame of 1998, they resized their chambers and shotshell bases by a couple of thousandth's smaller.  It was an attempt to capture market share of shotshell sales, as they couldn't compete with the others in price.  My Wingmaster will eat ANYTHING and is THE most dependable shotgun I've ever owned! (never had a jam in 18 years)

[mcwoodduck]

He said it was cheap federal shells and gave me some remingtons and they jammed also

The youth combo I spoke of above absolutely will not shoot Federals or Winchester shells.  It does shoot Rems well.  I believe that during the quality issue time frame of 1998, they resized their chambers and shotshell bases by a couple of thousandth's smaller.  It was an attempt to capture market share of shotshell sales, as they couldn't compete with the others in price.  My Wingmaster will eat ANYTHING and is THE most dependable shotgun I've ever owned! (never had a jam in 18 years)

Have a similar problem with the boys 870 Express.
It will shoot the Winchester AA hulls, and the Remington Premier, but will hang up on the cheap steel brass hulls.

[Swampman]

I've fired 10s of thousands of shells through 870 Remingtons and I've never seen one jam or malfunction in anyway.  I disassembled one that had a 1/2 a cup of unburnt powder and oil behind the bolt but it was still running.

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm I saw an interesting comment on another site that claimed it's costs Remington $18 US to make a Model 700 barrel  . Seems awfully cheap  anyone know if this is true or just internet drivel?

[mcwoodduck]

I've fired 10s of thousands of shells through 870 Remingtons and I've never seen one jam or malfunction in anyway.  I disassembled one that had a 1/2 a cup of unburnt powder and oil behind the bolt but it was still running.

If it were gunk it would be every shell not just the cheap ones.
So far the Cheap Win, and cheap 100 round packs from Wall mart get stuck.  The Cheap 100 pack from Federal works.
The Win AA and Rem Premier shells work.
I have not had him send any steel shot or Heavy shot through the gun yet.
I think it is combo of a sloppy chamber and the cheap "brass" expanding into the chamber that is hanging up the gun.
Lat time out I bought him Win AA hulls and told him to save them and we would start reloading again.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  MC, I haven't been at the site for a while, but your comment on the 870 and bargin ammo interests me...I wonder if the newer guns as you say are not as well finished as older stuff.  probably quite true since nothing is...I have a bunch of 870's...I have 3 12's I shoot alot..they have never kicked on any of the ammo I have run though them from reloads to steel to the el cheapos from Wal Mart...never a problem..even some English loads that jammed a model 37 Ithaca functioned prefectly though the 870...my 20's shoot all the suff with no problem...so maybe you have a bummer of a barrel...I did have my old 870 field "tuned" by a gunsmith as it was a bit stiff working even after years of use...I suppose I have been shooting it for well over 30 years...

[SHOOTALL]

I have a 870 that is over 25 years old . It has been to the bottom of several beaver ponds while duck hunting ,been snowed on , rained on, covered in dust , covered in mud ,  collected more deer and turkeys than i can remember and shot shells from Federal, Remington , RIO , winchester , B&P , Some from Germany and some from Canada ( and trust me shells from Canada have no peer as far as lack of quality - you can count on primer backing out ) . I have also cleaned alot of field trash out , some powder and buffer material. I don't over lube so there is little oil. Most who cycle the gun remark about the smoothness which came from use . I have shot it enough to crack the stock . It is a mag. reciever made before the speical purpose model . It wears a greay/green finish which has held up well to the abuse it has recived .
 I have seen the cheap remingtons fail and have seen the Savage's go for years .

[AtlLaw]

I remember when I was a teenager a friend's daddy bought him an 870.  I thought that was just about the best shotgun they was and wanted one real bad.  But bein po I had to make do with a Baker Gun Company Batavia Special SxS I bought when I was 12 or so.  Paid 9 dollars and sumpin cents for that shotgun; the guy wanted $10 but I was a nickle or dime shy.   

Anyway, I couldn't come up with the... what? $75 or so for a new 870.  To this day I have never owned one... 

[SHOOTALL]

Well Richard you should treat yourself to a nice wingmaster !

[mcwoodduck]

I remember when I was a teenager a friend's daddy bought him an 870.  I thought that was just about the best shotgun they was and wanted one real bad.  But bein po I had to make do with a Baker Gun Company Batavia Special SxS I bought when I was 12 or so.  Paid 9 dollars and sumpin cents for that shotgun; the guy wanted $10 but I was a nickle or dime shy.   

Anyway, I couldn't come up with the... what? $75 or so for a new 870.  To this day I have never owned one... 

I have a Baker Batavia Special.
Last time I looked it up on the price book it was worth $300 in 10% condition and went up from there.
Neat side by side.
True side lock gun.  If you still have it take it to the SXS classic they have in Ga and i ma sure someone will give you a new 870 for it.  Maybe two.