ruger 45-70 cartridges

[fatercat]

just bought a 45-70 and a couple boxes of federal 300 gn speer hot core sp. what can i expect fom bullet on deer?? never had a 45-70 before. how about elk?

[Larry Gibson]

If you put the bullet in the right place you can expect a dead deer or elk.  Some prefer heavier bullets but for factory amm that load is pretty good.

Larry Gibson

[Old Grizz]

For deer and elk that load will do fine. Like Larry siad, put in the right spot, dead critter.

[Swampman]

Try the Remingtom 405 grain loading.

[LONGTOM]

Myself and my best hunting buddy both use the factory 300gr HPs.
Neither of us has ever hunted elk but between us we have well over 170 deer with this load.
All but say a small handful have been one shot drops with complete pass through s at ranges up to 270yds give or take a few.
With that kind of performance it is our go to cartridge for big bore hunting.



LONGTOM

[Swampman]

The .45-70 is ham strung with the light bullets

[LONGTOM]

Swampman:

I notice that anytime the 300gr bullets are mentioned concerning the 45-70 you always seem to put them down in favor of the 405s.
Why is this?
Granted there is nothing wrong with the 405s but neither is the 300s.
Please explain your reasons for this.



LONGTOM

[fatercat]

i read all the post regarding the 45-70 with remington 300 gn HP. some said they opened to fast with out pass through. where i will use is thick. i need a blood trail. shots will be max 70-90 yds.

[LONGTOM]

Some may have had that experience with the 300s and I would wager the same with the 405s as well as other weights and calibers.
It is always possible.
Like I said in my earlier reply, with well over 170 confirmed kills on deer not once have we ever recovered a 300hp from them.
All have been complete pass throughs!
The 405s may have done the same thing had we used them.
I can't say since we don't use them.
As far as the thick stuff goes I watched a video of a study being done on the possibility of a bullet be relied upon to pass through brush or a branch and still hit it's intended target.
The final results were mixed.
A lot depended on many factors.
The construction of the bullet, the velocity at which it struck the object along with at what angle and at what distance from the muzzle in relation to the target.
This experiment was conducted by a ammo company on several different calibers with many different types and weights of common hunting bullets.
I would say that it is a chance that can not be predicted with any certainty no matter what weight bullet is used.



LONGTOM

[OSOK]

Haven't shot any Elk with them, but I have shot plenty of Deer with the 300 gr. Remingtons. Thumb sized entry hole, larger than palm of the hand exits. Would have been some really good blood trails...if I ever needed to trail one...all have been bang-flops.

[Swampman]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

[mcwoodduck]

Try the Remingtom 405 grain loading.

While the 405's shoot a lot nicer out of my No3 and are real easy on the shoulder while the 300 JHP's by either Fed or Win are a sharp kick they shoot about 5" high at 100 yards.  This is due to the slower speed 1300 FPS as opposed to the 1800 of the factory 300's.  just know this and be ready to move the factory sights.
If you are going to reload.  You can go nuts with bullet and load combinations as the action is strong enough to shoot loads to the bottome end of 458 Win Mag.  I have some of the hot 500 Gr loads a friend gave me and am not looking forward to trying them out in the No 3 with the al. butt plate and 5 pounds.  Oh my No 3 is a carbine version of your No 1S they made about 20+ years ago.

[AtlLaw]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

Ya know Swampy ol' saw, that's a pretty good analogy! 

just bought a 45-70 and a couple boxes of federal 300 gn speer hot core sp.

Great!  Let the fun begin!   

what can i expect fom bullet on deer??

well... if you hit a deer with a 300 gr., .458 caliber bullet in the right place, said deer will die... maybe immediately, maybe after a while.      If you hit it a deer in the wrong place with a 300 gr., .458 caliber bullet, said deer may die, eventually, or it may recover...     Lessee here...    yup, I guess that about covers it.   

never had a 45-70 before.

You in for a treat!  As I remember a 45-70, 1873 Springfield was my first high powered rifle.  It was either that or a Savage made No.4 Mk1* Lee-Enfield my daddy got me from Sears I think it was...     Anyway, I'd shoot rats in the town dump with the 45-70 when I could find and afford ammo.  Seems to me they were all 405 gr. bullets though...    I don't think the rats would have ever known the difference.   

how about elk?

Now, I done kilt deer with 300 gr. 458's but I ain't never shot no elk... come to think on it, I don't believe I've ever seen one 'cept on TV and in huntin mags...   

Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber!     If gamblin weren't no sin I'd be willin to bet what I said about shootin a deer with a 300 gr., .458 diameter bullet would go for them bigger critters as well.  But then, what do I know?     I just like to hear myself talk... 

[mattmillerrx]

I got a couple of boxes of those last year when I got my Ruger.  They shot great and were easy on the shoulder, but did not use them on any game.  I think you would be well served with that bullet on deer.  I can not speak for elk as I have not hunted them.

I then loaded some 435 lead gas check bullets and I have a beast of a load with those that my rifle likes.  I will likely call on that load for some big game someday.  I am still in development on a 350 grain Speer bullet I have two loads so far that would do fine and still have a few to test.  My rifle does not like this bullet as well as it did those 300 gr factor loads.  If I can not settle on a load with these, I may go to that hotcore bullet next.

You have yourself a great rifle.  If you do not already reload, you may want to consider it as you can really do a lot with this caliber and rifle.  Some very mild loads with Trailboss that anyone can shoot all the way up to the ruger only loads that are a beast and kill your shoulder if you shoot very many in a range trip.

[mcwoodduck]

what can i expect fom bullet on deer??

well... if you hit a deer with a 300 gr., .458 caliber bullet in the right place, said deer will die... maybe immediately, maybe after a while.      If you hit it a deer in the wrong place with a 300 gr., .458 caliber bullet, said deer may die, eventually, or it may recover...     Lessee here...    yup, I guess that about covers it.   


[
Now, I done kilt deer with 300 gr. 458's but I ain't never shot no elk... come to think on it, I don't believe I've ever seen one 'cept on TV and in huntin mags...   

I was waiting for one of you "They don't bounce off" comments.  I still chuckel about that one

[Badnews Bob]

I'd be willing to bet on a 300gr bullet dropping a deer just fine. I know they will work just fine. But, I really like the way my hard cast 405s shot at trapdoor loads work. I like big bullets. Deer don't. They don't blow the deer up as bad as the 300s do but they have out them in the dirt every time I've shot one, No tracking.  405gr Remmy green box works just the same.

[mcwoodduck]

I'd be willing to bet on a 300gr bullet dropping a deer just fine. I know they will work just fine. But, I really like the way my hard cast 405s shot at trapdoor loads work. I like big bullets. Deer don't. They don't blow the deer up as bad as the 300s do but they have out them in the dirt every time I've shot one, No tracking.  405gr Remmy green box works just the same.

Bob,
Do you think the 300 grain tears up deer more cause of the Hollow piont?  If you made a cast round that was the same physical size as your 405 but weighed 300 grain (alloy) do you thing they would tear up the deer?  Or is it the speed of the bullet as the faster lighter bullet as more kenetic energy as it moves along 500 FPS faster.  Even using the Knock out Taylor factor that gives a lot to bore and bullet weight the 300 grainer scores 36 while the 405 scores a 34.  30-06 150 grain load @3,000 fps scores a 19.8

[LONGTOM]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

If I may ask, what is the longest distance you have killed a deer at with the 405gr factory load and was it a complete pass through?



LONGTOM

[foxx1]

I SHOT A LARGE WHITETAIL DOE AT APPROXX. 150 YDS.SLIGHT ANGLE RUNNING AWAY.HIT FEW IN. BEFORE THE RUMP AND PASSED THRU AND OUT THE LOWER NECK.

[Swampman]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

If I may ask, what is the longest distance you have killed a deer at with the 405gr factory load and was it a complete pass through?



LONGTOM

60 yards & yes.  I don't like to shoot over 100 yards with any rifle.

[LONGTOM]

I SHOT A LARGE WHITETAIL DOE AT APPROXX. 150 YDS.SLIGHT ANGLE RUNNING AWAY.HIT FEW IN. BEFORE THE RUMP AND PASSED THRU AND OUT THE LOWER NECK.

At that distance I would think about any standard loading for the 45-70 would have done the same thing.
What weight bullet was you using?



LONGTOM

[LONGTOM]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

If I may ask, what is the longest distance you have killed a deer at with the 405gr factory load and was it a complete pass through?



LONGTOM

60 yards & yes.  I don't like to shoot over 100 yards with any rifle.

Fair enough, nothing wrong with ones self imposed limit.

The reason I ask is other than what you may have heard or read how can you say the 300s is inferior to the 405s considering the distances at which we both are talking?
Yours at 60 yds and some of ours at 270 yds.
So far I haven't seen a justification for you to come up with that annalists.
I have never shot a deer with the 405s so I can't comment one way or the other how it performs.
I know that many do use it and I would assume at longer ranges with good success.
However I do know what the 300s will do out to said distance and with a complete pass through I would venture to say it will perform even farther if one was inclined to do so.
I would guess the same could be said about the 405s also.

I am not trying hack you on this, was just curious as to how or why you dislike the 300s.


LONGTOM

[mcwoodduck]

We are way off subject here but.
When I had a trap door Cadet I had the ladder sight set for 225 (it was frozen there) and with cast 405 @1300 FPS I could hit any thing at 200 yards.  No if ands or butts off the bench.  The 405 bullet would swing the steel gong as much if not more than any of my 180 grain 308 or 30-06 rounds.  I say the 405 as it was made in 1884 and I was not willing to shoot anything other than the 405 lead load out of it.
With that long heavy hunk of lead moving through a deer I do not think it will stop even at 200 yards.  I know most of the 180 grain 308 rounds exit deer at that range.  With all that mass and the lenght of the bullet I think It will plow through a deer and will easily go side ways through an elk.  Of course you will have some that take different paths through more bone or get diverted and will stay in the deer.
I wish some one at Ruger would do the math and make a ladder sight out to 300 yards for either the standard 300 or 405 grain loads for the No.1 S Heck make the marks on the left 300 and on the right the 405.  Or have a front sight for either or multiple loads including the 45-70 mag loads.

[foxx1]

I use 405 gr bullets,seems my marlin likes it best

[Badnews Bob]

I'd be willing to bet on a 300gr bullet dropping a deer just fine. I know they will work just fine. But, I really like the way my hard cast 405s shot at trapdoor loads work. I like big bullets. Deer don't. They don't blow the deer up as bad as the 300s do but they have out them in the dirt every time I've shot one, No tracking.  405gr Remmy green box works just the same.

Bob,
Do you think the 300 grain tears up deer more cause of the Hollow piont?  If you made a cast round that was the same physical size as your 405 but weighed 300 grain (alloy) do you thing they would tear up the deer?  Or is it the speed of the bullet as the faster lighter bullet as more kenetic energy as it moves along 500 FPS faster.  Even using the Knock out Taylor factor that gives a lot to bore and bullet weight the 300 grainer scores 36 while the 405 scores a 34.  30-06 150 grain load @3,000 fps scores a 19.8

I believe it to be a little of both. The 300s are opening up way more than my 405s and the extra speed is pushing that flat chunk right on thru.

I do think a 300gr hardcast would work very well, But out of my rifle the 405s group better. Not that the 300 don't group well, The 405s are just better. (300s are great fun shooting with light loads.)

I personally don't hunt anything with hollow point bullets. Just don't feel the need. A .458 hole clean thru the boiler room and the deer go down, That works for me.

BTW I rarely ever pay any attention to knock down formulas, ME killing figures, Or any other charts that tell me how well something should kill. Being able to put a round where I want it because I practice and know my chosen firearm will take game cleanly is what I place my trust in.

Paper numbers are fun to look at and are good for new developments, But, A hole in the vitals is what drops deer.      

Any .45-70 round will put a pretty good hole in a deer.

Oh yea, my .45-70s are a Marlin GG and a NEF handie rifle.  The GG likes .420gr LBTs

[Badnews Bob]

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball and see which one goes further and does the most damage.

If I may ask, what is the longest distance you have killed a deer at with the 405gr factory load and was it a complete pass through?



LONGTOM

It wasn't a factory load but it was a trapdoor load useing 405gr hardcast, I dropped a doe (maybe 100lbs?) at right at 200 yards, I over compensated a little and just miss her heart high, slight quartering shot but I didn't hit any shoulder, Complete pass thru and her lungs were mush, She ran maybe 25 yards.   Gotta love them Handies Longtom.

[LONGTOM]

OH YEA! Love my Handis.   
Can't say which has top billing so not to hurt their feelings but the 45-70 is running right at the top.
I don't rely on paper figures much either except as a guide.
Many time I can prove the ballistics are a little off, enough to make a difference.
About the only time I use them is when there is a large difference in performance between two different loadings such as the 405s and the 300s.
They aren't exact but close enough to aid in a discussion.



LONGTOM

[efremtags]

The issue is not so much about weight as bullet construction. most 300gr discussed in these forum tend to be hollow points, not soft points. The ywere developed to open up at standard trapdoor velocity, and offer minimal penetration at those velocities. The more you expand, the less you will penetrate.

A 300Gr bullet would be effective on elk, my preference is to something heavier and @ higher velocity and of more durable construction than a hollow point.

Hogs are not that tough. I have shot 175lb bores usign a 44 mag with hard cast and get complete pass through shoulder to shoulder. That is both lighter and slower than any trapdoor load.  To answer your question on bore, either 300 or 405 at standard velocity will likely get you complete or near complete pass through.

I personaly use REM 405@ 1750FPS, and so far have 1 bear to it's credit. It will break 2 shoulders and travel into the yonder never to be found at this velocity, which is what I want. I also don't mind the improved trajectory with the higher velocity.

While swamppy's analogy is accurate about weight, it is not precise in that there is not that drastic of a difference between 300 and 405 in weight. Physics says momentum will keep a heavy object in motion longer, but it also requires more force to do so. Also ballistic coeficient has more to do with how a bullet travels than weight (IE a .223 75GR will out distance a 405GR 45/70 with less energy), so as the saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out".


 

[fatercat]

if any of you guys look at the small rifle form you will see i killed a elk with a 257 weatherby this year.  when  i shoot my weatherby it feels like a young blond 18 year old virgin has brushed her breast on my shoulder. when i shoot this 45-70 it feels like a kick from hell. thanks for your comments but i have to ask you guys this, are you nuts? LOOK ON THE FOR SALE FORM. IT WILL BE THERE WITH PICS. regards, richard

[Darrell Davis]

OK, guys,  Right off I'll say that my 45/70 experience is all from hours of reading and NO hands on experience.

I have reloaded all my hunting ammo since the 60s, so with my - new to me - RUGER 45/70 my desire is to come up with a worthy hunting load with my own cast bullets.

But, one thing I didn't like to read in one of the earlier posts, was about an exit wound "over hand palm size."

This, as I recall, was with the factory 300 grain bullets, and shows tissue damage beyond what I desire.

On a ribe cage shot, no big thing, but I would hate to see that same wound on the off side shoulder!!!!!!

I have read for years about cast bullets hunters speaking of "eating right up to the bullet hole," meaning when compared to many jacketed bullets, there was limited tissue damage.

I fully realise that tissue damage is a factor of the kill, but I much prefer to see much less then hand palm sized exit wounds.

Probably why Nosler Partitions have been my favorite for years.

I am presently getting ready to do testing with a RCBS - 405gr flat nose style cast bullet - weighed bullets average about 427 - 428 grains - hoping to arrive at a load able to do the job out to 2 hundred yards or a tad more.

I hope, by the end of this next hunting season, to have some real life experience, but afraid I have started a bit late in life to get a lot of it.

However, I have lived long enough to have some solid opinions!

keep em coming!

CDOC