Starbucks and open carry, surprising

[Ultra25-06]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35632357/ns/business-retail/

Where I live open carry is a daily practice for many. It doesnt seem out of place walking in with a sidearm in plain view or seeing some one else practicing their same right. However if I travel just 40miles to the capital city for a day out with the wife or some shoping I practice my right for conceled carry. Reason being it just seems a little like to much of a "yuppie" city and would be looked down upon. I do however plan on testing the open carry in the Starbucks (so long a legal) next to my wifes place of employment being it just happens to be a major outdoor retail store. I am curious to see how it goes. One question. Does the Walmart in your area allow or deny open carry or concelled firearms? I have been told they are against it, but have only heard and never verified. 

[boondocker]

The Walmarts in my area Ne Pa have no sign up on concealed carry as it would stop me anyway. If you seen some of the clientele you would carry also.
Open carry is legal in Pa but personally it is not worth the gawking you get. I have never tested this open carry and some folks in groups have gone to restaurants with the end result of getting them to ban firearms as it is their private property. I would rather have the element of surprise myself. As the economy tanks our world is becoming more violent and violent measures will have to prevail I am sure. I dont see myself as a rambo just someone that loves his family and will by all means protect them. I will surely not depend on the law to protect.  Boon 

[slim rem 7]

no signs in walmart here..heck around here permit or not..you better assume a fellas carrying..
 not much mugging goes on around here either.. compared to charlotte..
 the bg knows hes most likely gonna be looking dn a barrel if he tries it here in stanly co..
here lately it don t matter if its man or woman.. they both may haveum..thats a good thing. slim

[Old Fart]

I read an article about SB saying they would allow whatever the local laws allow a few weeks back.
Kind of surprised me they didn't object to it. I suspected them to be much more liberal in thier thinking.
As for WM and everywhere else down here you almost never see a gun buster sign anywhere anymore.
First year or two you would see them on stores. But they just kind of went away.
I think they felt the lose of revenue from people coming up to the door and turning around.....

[T/Chmr]

Our local Walmart here in TX has a sign about the "unlicensed carrying of a firearm" but nothing in regards to CCW.  But I live in a small rural town in central TX where most ranchers always have a rifle on the seat or in the gunrack.  Heck we don't even have a Starbucks, our idea of flavored coffee is adding cream and sugar.

[rex6666]

don't remember seeing a sign at Wally-World
I probably won't see a sign at SB, i drink my coffee straight, try that at SB.

[MGMorden]

I probably won't see a sign at SB, i drink my coffee straight, try that at SB.

They sell straight black coffee in almost all coffee-houses, including Starbucks .  You can even choose between varying degrees of roasts and blends.  I don't go to Starbucks very often (I typically go to a local place called Wholly Ground - the owners are very religious and it's a pun ), but the standard coffee with nothing in it isn't THAT expensive ($1.50-$2 cup for plain, depending on where you are). 

That said, I've become much more into flavored coffee's myself.  Mocha latte or a macchiato for me .

No open carry allowed in SC either way though (unless you're hunting or fishing - possibly hiking too but I'd have to double-check that).  If you see the no-concealed signs here though you have to obey them (or rather, really should).  The CCW law got written up so that carrying into a business that is posted with such a sign is just as illegal as carrying into a post office or other such zones.  I don't see that many of the signs though.

[rex6666]

I probably won't see a sign at SB, i drink my coffee straight, try that at SB.

They sell straight black coffee in almost all coffee-houses, including Starbucks .  You can even choose between varying degrees of roasts and blends.  I don't go to Starbucks very often (I typically go to a local place called Wholly Ground - the owners are very religious and it's a pun ), but the standard coffee with nothing in it isn't THAT expensive ($1.50-$2 cup for plain, depending on where you are). 

That said, I've become much more into flavored coffee's myself.  Mocha latte or a macchiato for me .

No open carry allowed in SC either way though (unless you're hunting or fishing - possibly hiking too but I'd have to double-check that).  If you see the no-concealed signs here though you have to obey them (or rather, really should).  The CCW law got written up so that carrying into a business that is posted with such a sign is just as illegal as carrying into a post office or other such zones.  I don't see that many of the signs though.
[/quote


SB employee explained it to me this way, when we make coffee we plain on flavoring
it, so we make it very strong. When i buy coffee i just want coffee none of
that mamby-pamby hotsy-totsy flavoring and sit and talk about who is the best
on that big time entertanment contest. BLAH! To each his own. Price is not
the object but principle is. be a man!

[gwhilikerz]

No problem at Wal-Mart on most of the businesses around here. The local IGA food store has a sign at the door saying no firearms allowed.

[wreckhog]

Was just in the most dangerous Walmart in the world. Where a security guard was stomped to death by sales hungry shoppers a couple Black Fridays ago. No anti gun signs. They had a ton of ammo too.

[Dand]

I just heard about this on public radio today - or was it yesterday? I never would have dreamed an outfit that started in Seattle (I think) would be so clear thinking. Now I'm proud my wife has Starbucks bulk in our freezer even if I can't drink it anymore.

[Cabin4]

if the law allows you to carry, their sign is meaningless and should be ignored. No sign can violate your Right.

[dukkillr]

if the law allows you to carry, their sign is meaningless and should be ignored. No sign can violate your Right.

This is one of those statements that may be true in Happy Ideologue Land.  It IS NOT legally correct.

[wreckhog]

I like Starbuck's because you can orderr your coffee by temperature. I order "hot" chocolate at 140 degrees for my kid. Can you open carry a long gun into Starbuck's? That has gotta be legal most everywhere.

[Cabin4]

if the law allows you to carry, their sign is meaningless and should be ignored. No sign can violate your Right.

This is one of those statements that may be true in Happy Ideologue Land.  It IS NOT legally correct.

How can a state have Right to Carry Law and the off-limits area not include Wal Mart and you still violate the law??? I personally ran into this with Wal Mart when I lived in PA. PA has a right carry and I had a carry permit. The local Wal Mart had a sign up on the front door "no carry firearms allowed". I validated that this sign has had NO LEGAL standing and called the Wal Mart, spoke to the store manager and she took the sign down. Wal Marts in KY were doing the same thing at the same time and they also were forced to take the signs down. PA and KY have nearly similar carry laws and they have reciprocity with each other.

You can call it Happy Ideologue land all you want. But no stupid sign takes away your rights. As an attorney, It’s hard for me to understand some of the conclusions you come to. Wal Mart has no Right, to take away your Rights as defined under the law. Churches, Schools, Court Houses and a few other locations are listed in the PA & KY Carry Law as off limits areas. Retail stores and Wal Mart are NOT on the list.

[dukkillr]

if the law allows you to carry, their sign is meaningless and should be ignored. No sign can violate your Right.

This is one of those statements that may be true in Happy Ideologue Land.  It IS NOT legally correct.

How can a state have Right to Carry Law and the off-limits area not include Wal Mart and you still violate the law??? I personally ran into this with Wal Mart when I lived in PA. PA has a right carry and I had a carry permit. The local Wal Mart had a sign up on the front door "no carry firearms allowed". I validated that this sign has had NO LEGAL standing and called the Wal Mart, spoke to the store manager and she took the sign down. Wal Marts in KY were doing the same thing at the same time and they also were forced to take the signs down. PA and KY have nearly similar carry laws and they have reciprocity with each other.

You can call it Happy Ideologue land all you want. But no stupid sign takes away your rights. As an attorney, It’s hard for me to understand some of the conclusions you come to. Wal Mart has no Right, to take away your Rights as defined under the law. Churches, Schools, Court Houses and a few other locations are listed in the PA & KY Carry Law as off limits areas. Retail stores and Wal Mart are NOT on the list.

Well I misunderstood your point.  I thought you were making a blanket statement that, "No sign can violate your [r]ight."  That is clearly wrong.  Most (all?) states allow private property owners to post their places to enforce THEIR right to control who does and does not enter their residence or place of business. 

But if your argument was more PA based, I spent some time researching the subject... From PA Open Carry:

Yes, most businesses allow carry. Some do not. Some allow concealed but not open. Some allow only police to carry. Etc.

Businesses are private property and they have the right to allow or disallow any behavior they please. Unfortunately most businesses do not post these rules, particularly their policy on allowing or prohibiting firearms. In PA, signs carry no legal weight in regards to private property rules. This may be part of the reason why few businesses post signs clarifying their policy on carrying of firearms. If a business has a policy against carrying firearms in their establishment they have to ask you to leave, at which time you are obliged to do so. Failure to do so can result in trespass charges being filed.

For businesses that do post signs stating their policy against carrying firearms it is best to heed such signage if you are openly carrying. No sense in going onto a property whose intentions are known only to be told the same by someone once inside. Honor their wishes by simply shopping elsewhere.

http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#6

What I was really afraid of is that someone would come to say, a courthouse, and remembering the immortal words of you, "... no stupid sign takes away [my] rights." and they would wander in secure in the knowledge you gave them.

As is often the case, I'm not arguing that this is good.  Happy Ideologue Land is indeed a happy place.  Life might very well be better if everyone allowed CC or if you could ignore the owner's wishes.  Unfortunately we don't live there, and I'd hate to see someone go to jail because they believe we do.

[MGMorden]

You can call it Happy Ideologue land all you want. But no stupid sign takes away your rights. As an attorney, It’s hard for me to understand some of the conclusions you come to. Wal Mart has no Right, to take away your Rights as defined under the law. Churches, Schools, Court Houses and a few other locations are listed in the PA & KY Carry Law as off limits areas. Retail stores and Wal Mart are NOT on the list.

dukkilr already quoted the PA law, but it's important to understand that this does indeed vary by state.  In SC for example, the portion of our laws dealing with concealed weapons contains the following:

SECTION 23-31-220. Right to allow or permit concealed weapons upon premises; signs.

Nothing contained in this article shall in any way be construed to limit, diminish, or otherwise infringe upon:

(1) the right of a public or private employer to prohibit a person who is licensed under this article from carrying a concealable weapon upon the premises of the business or work place or while using any machinery, vehicle, or equipment owned or operated by the business;

(2) the right of a private property owner or person in legal possession or control to allow or prohibit the carrying of a concealable weapon upon his premises.

The posting by the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control of a sign stating “No Concealable Weapons Allowed” shall constitute notice to a person holding a permit issued pursuant to this article that the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control requests that concealable weapons not be brought upon the premises or into the work place. A person who brings a concealable weapon onto the premises or work place in violation of the provisions of this paragraph may be charged with a violation of Section 16-11-620. In addition to the penalties provided in Section 16-11-620, a person convicted of a second or subsequent violation of the provisions of this paragraph must have his permit revoked for a period of one year. The prohibition contained in this section does not apply to persons specified in Section 16-23-20, item (1).

So depending on your state, the sign may indeed carry legal weight.  They certainly do here.  They probably won't find out if you keep it well concealed, but in my state (and I'd wager a number of others) you are in violation of the law if you ignore the signage - in which case, there wasn't much point it going through the trouble to get your permit anyways.  Illegally carrying concealed has always "usually worked".

[billy_56081]

O know the concealed carry law in Minnesota does not make it a crime if you concealed carry in a buisiness that has a sign posted. You must also be verbally warned to not carry. When the more liberal concealed carry law was passed here, many store put up signs prohibiting concealed carry. Most of them have taken them down as they really held no legal weight and many gun owners let them know that they would not do buisiness with them any more. I had a C store I buy 10 to 20 thousand dollars worth of gas from take one down immediatly when I complained I would no long do buisiness woth them if they kept the sign.

[Cabin4]

Well, the context was "Right to Carry". I assumed we were using the legal defenition regadless of state, since every state has specific regs in this area. Yes, I agree, it would be unlawfull to carry in a place that was off-limites per the law. My only point was, if you have a true legal right to carry in a particular place, a sign stating you can't (i.e. over zealous Wal Mart manager puts up a sign), you can ignore the sign and carry. They can no more take away your Right to carry, than I can stand in front of their store with a sign stating "No Persons Allowed Entry".

[torpedoman]

Really nice to see a company that sticks to what it does best and is not into setting public policy. We should discuss this over a cup of coffee.