Author Topic: A case for the revolver (Read 5244 times)

don heath · « **Reply #30 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:16:35 AM »

Victor - if you are almost certain that there isn't going to be a firefight then yes, give my my S&W 329

It was always one of the 'devils alternatives' for me. 50% of follow ups ended up in no contact. 40% ended up with the bad guys fleeing at the first shot. 10% ended up with a fierce fight - and we were always outnumbered by at least 4:1. Being a 'zookeeper' not a front line infantry unit, we didn't get the first rate kit. Mostly we were issued with G3's...most of which were 'jamamatics'. But I scrounged a BREN. First line units couldn't be bothered to carry a 24lb gun with 30 in the magazine. they wanted MAG's (Same as US 240's). Was it worth carrying that weight, plus all the heavy mags and the inconvienience of the bipod etc when 90% of the time it was clearly unnecessary. After a couple of firefights the answer was YES. a bren in action was countered a dozen AK47's on the other side.

Conclusion- if there is a reasonable possibility of things ending up in a shootout, carry the most effective thing you can, and damm the weight and inconvienience!

don heath · « **Reply #31 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:21:41 AM »

Shootall- I know, I have traveled fairly extensively in the USA, And being used to driving on the left...and always having the cheepest rental car (which always seems to be red), I get pulled over fairly often. At least 75% of the time to cop is alone, and most often in a rural setting.

Like I say, I wouldn't rush off to be a cop in the states! Law enforcement of any kind is pretty thankless but when you are sent out under staffed and under equiped- it really sucks. Fought in two wars under such conditions and not in a hurry for a third

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:30:31 AM »

In the states alot of LE is elected out in the counties and public opinion plays a big part in how poilce go about their work. Read that as several have to be killed before funds are aval. to keep officers safe.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #33 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:31:41 AM »

Consider it was less expensive to give officers hi-cap guns than to place 2 in a car.

Couger · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2010, 04:51:00 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL

In the states alot of LE is elected out in the counties and public opinion plays a big part in how poilce go about their work. Read that as several have to be killed before funds are aval. to keep officers safe.

I'd say both cynical and "truthful" sentiments apply to that sentence!

As for LE weapons, I have to smile how europeans think Americans are hoodlums - both citizen and cop alike for having their "high capacity" pump or semi-auto shotguns, and think we're barbaric that way!

Never mind that we think europeans are barbaric and only one or two short steps from being a bonifide police state with their machineguns visible in evey cops' hands!

Victor3 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 09, 2010, 11:36:11 PM »

Quote from: don heath on March 09, 2010, 02:16:35 AM

Conclusion- if there is a reasonable possibility of things ending up in a shootout, carry the most effective thing you can, and damm the weight and inconvienience!

Can't argue with that Dr. Heath. However, the OP's title of this thread is "A case for the revolver" and now we're talkin' SMGs, LMGs and AKs

Back on topic...

A few years ago I drove from Atlanta, GA to Fayetteville, NC., stopping at several small towns along the way. I saw a lot of cops down that way still armed with revolvers.

One sight I got a kick out of was a hefty, grizzled officer on an old Kawasaki KZ1000P with a folding stock M1 carbine mounted on one side and a pistol grip shotgun on the other. He had a basket-weave leather belt and holster for his .357. 'Old school' all the way.

Looked like he wasn't one to take no $#!t off of nobody, and had a well worn nightstick displayed across the handlebars in case there was any doubt!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** March 10, 2010, 02:47:03 AM »

Sounds like a good cop .
I agree with most long guns are a better choice to face danger with but it seems in many cases a hand gun will be the only option . I guess my thought with starting this was to make the case that the revolver was the most idoit proof . Not ment as a cut but , no safety , no mag problem , easy to load , easy to cycle next round and the list goes on . The high cap issue is the holy ground of the auto and a valid point but no more so than a jam or fail to fire round . In reality which have you encountered most . Damaged mags ? I have had one revolver shoot loose and it was repaired easy . Lets face it a 5000 dollar 1911 is a single shot with out a mag. And mags can be hard to find in some places and some times . And with a good revolver or ka-bar you can obtain other weapons in times of need .

thxmrgarand · « **Reply #37 on:** March 10, 2010, 07:37:57 AM »

I believe that weapons choices by law enforcement agencies have been driven by the same agenda that has brought the adoption of automatic transmissions in law enforcement and even military vehicles, namely affirmative action and perhaps to a less extent hiring of city people who have never fired firearms or driven equipment until the first day of training provided by the new employer. The US Armed Forces of 1941 would never have adopted a .22 rifle as the main service rifle and they likely would not have adopted the 9mm Luger as the main handgun round.

In Mexico, Canada and all of western Europe it seems to me that the law enforcement people having SMG's is more of an indicator of a suppressed people than of anything else. And that is the distinct impression I have when I see them.

On one national news program last night I saw some British Members of Parliament discussing breeds of dogs to add to their existing list of prohibited breeds (prohibited because the breeds are believed to be dangerous) and requiring all dog owners to purchase special insurance. As part of the news feed they showed some negro males allowing two pit bulls on leashes to worry each other. However, the list of breeds prohibited or under consideration of prohibition included common working breeds of dogs. I believe that some kinds of knives are also restricted in Great Britain.

Victor3 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 10, 2010, 09:12:05 PM »

Quote from: thxmrgarand on March 10, 2010, 07:37:57 AM

I believe that weapons choices by law enforcement agencies have been driven by the same agenda that has brought the adoption of automatic transmissions in law enforcement and even military vehicles, namely affirmative action and perhaps to a less extent hiring of city people who have never fired firearms or driven equipment until the first day of training provided by the new employer.

I'm not so sure about that. Cop cars have mostly had auto trannys for 50 years. It made sense to remove the burden of an officer having to shift gears.

Following your logic, I'd think that revolvers would be more popular than autos with police departments, considering they're more simple to operate.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #39 on:** March 11, 2010, 12:52:52 AM »

With that line of thought it would be hard to explain computers in patrol cars.

TheCoachZed · « **Reply #40 on:** April 26, 2010, 04:44:35 PM »

Quote from: thxmrgarand on March 10, 2010, 07:37:57 AM

In Mexico, Canada and all of western Europe it seems to me that the law enforcement people having SMG's is more of an indicator of a suppressed people than of anything else. And that is the distinct impression I have when I see them.

I have never seen a cop with an SMG here. Ever.

bilmac · « **Reply #41 on:** May 01, 2010, 01:58:20 AM »

A few have mentioned it already, to me the most compelling argument for the 6 shooter is ammo diversity. The 357 has the highest one shot stops of any other round, but you can feed it ammo that makes it a pussy cat. We're in the SHTF, Survival catagory here so to me the handgun may have a very important second use to pop a snake or rabbit or other critter of opportunity for supper that night. Easy to reload for and it will digest less than perfect ammo.

You can have different loads all in the cylinder at the same time. For instance first hole up has a shot load for if you have a quick chance to kill a rattler, and you don't want to have to worry about him for the next month if he gets away. Say mild low noise loads in the next two. Still plenty of power to put a rabbit in the pot. In a low stress situation like potting a rabbit, no problem to remember to thumb past that shot load. Full house 357s in the last three holes for a deadly encounter with a bad guy. If it's a surprise at close range, just blast through the first three. A load of shot isn't going to help the bad guys accuracy at all. Neither will a couple of 38specials. If you encounter someone and you have time to prepare, fill the gun up with the good stuff.

teamnelson · « **Reply #42 on:** May 01, 2010, 03:30:53 PM »

That's kinda my theory, bilmac!

Cornbelt · « **Reply #43 on:** May 04, 2010, 05:14:35 AM »

Another pro-revolver argument is in case you're down to black powder for reloads, it works a whole lot better in a revolver than in an auto. They will both go bang, but it makes an auto nasty.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2010, 02:42:47 AM »

Never considered the BP , good thought thanks

Spirithawk · « **Reply #45 on:** May 22, 2010, 05:32:53 PM »

You know? It comes down to one undeniable fact. Almost all Autos jam sooner or later. Revolvers don't jam! That simple fact can be the differance between living or dying.

teamnelson · « **Reply #46 on:** May 22, 2010, 05:43:36 PM »

Good point! But just wait someone will soon post that a revolver will go out of time ... my 1897 .38 S&W that was daily carry for 3 generations hasn't yet, the model 10 & 14 used LEO carry guns haven't yet, my silhouette revolvers that get shot more than alot of semis haven't yet, but perhaps they're right

The simplest mechanism with the fewest moving parts is inherently less prone to failure.

bilmac · « **Reply #47 on:** May 22, 2010, 07:41:56 PM »

When I went to cop school we trained with some old S&W model 14s. The instructors said the guns had had hundreds of thousands of rounds through them without a hiccup.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #48 on:** May 24, 2010, 02:52:35 AM »

TM its true some may go out of time and when they do they shave/spit a little lead , but still work. With 38 spl. loads most won't don't think i have ever seen a Ruger out of time. Pythons i have seem out though and i like them.

HogFan · « **Reply #49 on:** May 24, 2010, 12:49:39 PM »

I had a Colt Lawman Mark III .357 snubby, that went out of time. It became a 4 shooter, not a 6 shooter. Autos can jam, and revolvers can go out of time. Either way, I would hope you would shoot the weapon enough to know if their was a problem with it. I am thinking of getting my CCL when I return home from my current deployment. I'll qualify with my semi-auto, that way I can carry any type of handgun. Qualify with a revolver, I can only carry a revolver.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #50 on:** May 24, 2010, 01:08:32 PM »

Well look at it like this. Get yourself a reasonably good quallity revolver and a reasonably good quallity automatic. I'll bet you any amount of money you care to lose that the auto jams before the revolver goes out of time. Come on now, I could use the money.

vacek · « **Reply #51 on:** May 24, 2010, 03:43:45 PM »

I don't want to choose... Love my Glock 17, Love my Ruger Blackhawk 45.

However, one thing in the above threads that I disagree with is that an automatic cannot used different loadings. Wrong. If I was stuck with only my Glock, then I would keep the clip in the gun with my best xtp loads for bad things. However, I also cast and reload a lower velocity bullet. Actually 2. One will cycle the other won't. The one that doesn't cycle is a real hoot to shoot out to 25 yards. Very accurate and doesn't damage the bunny wabbit meat. If I'm out in the boonies and the opportunity arises, you can change out a Glock clip faster than a gar can skin a minnow and put in another clip of more reasonable use. I am also working on a shot load for the Glock similar to the 45 ACP shotload that Ed Harris developed in the 79'-80's as a survival hunting load for stranded military personnel.

Powder + Gas Check + #12 shot + Gas Check + Roll Crimp. Would be good to about 10 feet out.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #52 on:** May 25, 2010, 11:06:19 AM »

I think "use any ammo" is the idea of the revolver . The 327 fed is a good example , not only different projectiles but power levels . And when doing so you are not reduced to cycling the next round into fireing position by hand because the weapon did not cycle because of lack of power . True finger power makes the revolver go round but it is a one handed affair not 2 handed like most autos require. Also a revolver seldon fails to feed no matter the type bullet used. When resupply may be hard to come by ,like the last year when ammo was hard to get as was componets then having a weapon that dijest anything that fits is a big + .

teamnelson · « **Reply #53 on:** May 25, 2010, 02:05:18 PM »

If the 327 Fed takes off, to where the likelihood of scrounging ammo from a vacated house is pretty high, then I think the new Rugers would be a great example of a quality revolver that would last generations. The GP100 is one of the strongest DA actions made (some say THE strongest) while the Blackhawk SA is benchmark of quality in single action. And you can fire .327, .32 H&R Mag, .32 S&W Long (and short if you can find it.) My wife's go to gun is an SP101 in 32 H&R Mag; she is not a gun lover, but she knows that gun. It won't let her down, and she'll hit what she's aiming at within her comfortable range ... whether I am there or not.

Survival means even if I lose use of a hand, or its busy holding something or someone at the time, so I cannot stake our lives on something that requires two hands to operate or clear. As for speed ... it takes more skill to reload quick on a revolver, but I've seen some folks that make a mag swap look glacial. Google Miculek sometime.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #54 on:** May 26, 2010, 02:52:19 AM »

The revolver is not with out draw backs like reloading fast . Dirt etc. can keep it from closing if it has a shroud over the rod. These are things the operator must plan for and guard aginst . Try to reload behind cover , reload enough that it can be done in the dark , know which way the cyl. turns incase you only have time to get one round in , pratice . The dirt thing you need to be aware of it might be you wipe the revolver on a pants leg before opening but think about it in advance.

Rolandedwinjohnson · « **Reply #55 on:** August 31, 2010, 08:34:56 AM »

Revolvers do jam and gum up, try reloading your 45 colt with BP or pellets and see how soon you need to scrub that thing down in soapy hot water - I got two cylinders out of my Ruger New Vaquero before I had difficulty reloading.

On the other hand, you will get exactly one shot out of your 1911 if you try 23 grains of BP Pistol powder and 230 grn ball ammo or 20 grns with a 125 grn ball in your Browning HP. Guess how I know this.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #56 on:** August 31, 2010, 08:44:34 AM »

guess how i know this ?

Ya love smoke

teamnelson · « **Reply #57 on:** August 31, 2010, 10:04:29 AM »

HA HA ... I wish I could've seen that ... BP in a semi, that's awesome! Won't keep me from trying it myself though

Spoke to a longtime Glock owner, like 20+ years. Had to turn in his Gen 1 frames to be upgraded as the synthetic polymer was losing its elasticity and starting to show brittleness and failure at the lock and rails. I guess all polymers outgas over time; makes sense, never thought about it in regards to all the polymer semis that are out there. Had a discussion on it over on another site, and really raised questions in my mind over the wisdom of picking a polymer frame anything for a long term, possibly never to have access to manufacturing or resupply again, scenario. I know alot of folks one handgun solution is a polymer frame for lighter weight.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** August 31, 2010, 10:12:28 AM »

This was also dicussed here , being in the plumbing industry I noted that everything we installed made out of plastic or polymer got brittle with time . CPVC pipe will get brittle in less that 10 years ( I know this because its in my house ) . Seemed no one wanted to admit this here. Thanks for the post !

teamnelson · « **Reply #59 on:** August 31, 2010, 10:29:31 AM »

SHOOTALL, I checked into it - Smyrna has a factory upgrade program for LEO/Military Glocks specifically for this recognized issue, and I guess the new frames have radiused edges to retard the normal wear issues associated with polymer. I'm not a Glock hater at all, love the concept, and every one I've fired has been a pleasure to shoot - I was on the fence about selling off a 1911 to get a 21sf, but this pulled me back over.