Survival Reloading & Casting Efficiency

[don heath]

Vacek - 1cm squares for .303. The reloaded .455 revolver ammo used tiny chips - about 1mm squre or smaller.

In Mozambique they use dried reeds as the basis for the powder rather than cotton wool...burns slower. Basic retarding agent is graphite powder- they use ground up school pencils (provided free by the ever useful UN).

Making Primers...There in lies the problem. The blacks use match heads to refil the old 'top hat' style primers- they hold a fair amount of material and the flair is quite long - but they have around 30-50% missfires. I have collected several nice (antique) rifles off poachers who have tried to shoot me and had their guns go 'click'. The Mulato/Arab guys making 'smokless' try to buy in primers or at least the silver nitrate needed to make fulminate. I am a biologist not a chemist, but with the ammount of murcury around here I don't understand why they don't use mercury fulminate.
 

[don heath]

PS- Phosphourus for psedo primers is easily obtaible- collect piss and distill it. Sulphur to moderate and stabilise it in Africa is virtually impossible. Howver, properly packed primers have a very good life span...couple of thousand years. If you wish to stockpile, it is primers that are hardest to produce. Because of the paperwork involved in getting powder or primers here, I have to buy 'minimum orders' - 10,000 primers and 20kg of powder being the minimum...Works for me

[Victor3]

PS- Phosphourus for psedo primers is easily obtaible- collect piss and distill it.

 How would one do that? Are you maybe thinking of potassium nitrate?

[SHOOTALL]

For hunting a flint lock would be an option for long term survival.Bothy ignition and powder could be made in the fiels . lead is also findable. For protection long term reloading would only go so far if on the move . At some point if the crisis warrants one would have to decide if taking a weapon was only choice left.

[vacek]

Survival Reloading?  One powder or 1 lb. of powder.  I guess I would go with Red Dot.  It essentially burns as fast as Bullseye and if I understand it, it is one of the least position sensitive powders out there.  Most of the uses for Bullseye for very light loads can be accomplished with Red Dot.  Red Dot works good in 9mm, it is very nice in the revolvers and shines in 44 special and 45 LC.

Then there is "The Load" as written by C.E. Harris.  13 grains of Red Dot in a "modern" (98 Mauser, 303 Brit, on up) 30 caliber cartridge gives a result not much less than a 30-30.  Red Dot, if you look in the latest version of Lyman's Cast Bullet Reloading Manual is consistently used for a lot of pistol and rifle calibers.  Therefore there is a lot of useful data out there for it.

So if I had to choose (this is always a nice mental exercise), I would take my 1949 Fazerkly Lee Enfield (Model 2 #4) with its 10 shot clip, very sophisticated aperature sites and probably my 45 LC Blackhawk.  Lee single cav molds for 180 g. 303, C.E. Harris' design of .311 150 g, a .32 Round Ball and the  Elmer Keith knockoff and fuel it with Red Dot and some good CCI primers.  I have the old style wackamo Lee bullet sizers and would tumble with Alox.  I would have no problem using the Lee Loader for the 303 Brit and the 45 LC.  I do it all the time.

[don heath]

Victor...Phos can be concentrated from urine...Sweden became the worlds leading producer of matches because they found the quickest way of concentrating it- traditional french way took 6 months....

And yes, Salt Peter is another by product.

[Dixie Dude]

I thought saltpeter was found in manure?

[teamnelson]

For hunting a flint lock would be an option for long term survival.Bothy ignition and powder could be made in the fiels . lead is also findable. For protection long term reloading would only go so far if on the move . At some point if the crisis warrants one would have to decide if taking a weapon was only choice left.

good thoughts ... when I ran through this excercise for bp I figured a good bow would be simpler.

[Dances with Geoducks]

I figured a good bow would be simpler.

I have a bow also, but I have enough holy black to make 1000 rounds. (7 pounds)
It can be used in the flintlock, 45-70 and 30-30.

At $15 a pound for Pyrodex, I figured Id pick up a few of those too.

[teamnelson]

DWG, I've never used a flinter, but would you also need a different powder for the ignition?

[Dances with Geoducks]

Normally you use 4f for the pan. One can will last a life time.
Im using the same can that I got maybe 10 years ago.

[teamnelson]

So if you had to pack up and move, no vehicle, just what you could carry on your back ... how much 4f would you have to take to go along with a pound of black?

[jbtazgrabber]

you asked me which powder red dots my choice...........remember this...for every shotshell you find you can load 3 small cases 38 or 3030 or in my case the reece.....so buy lots of primers and go buy a food sealing machine that takes out the air so your primers will stay good no matter how long in storage....i dont trust zip locks.............will have to use them after the food bags are opened.....the food bags are a lot tuffer than zips.................a bullet mold....one pound of powder....2000 loads per pound of powderis close to right.....so 3000 primers is the min...powder can be found or made......primers i think are next to impossable tomake.........i still have strike anywhere matches but i havent seen anyin years......so even 5000 primers would not be to many in my opinon.............jb.....the 30 cal will out range any 38 or 357 loads...thats why i stay with 308.dia,,,,,,,round balls are good too....no loading dies needed just primer remover and installer.....load by hand.....still no range,,,,,, bullets out shoot balls in distance.....jb

[jlwilliams]

  All these threads about end of he world armaments makes me want to build a crossbow.  I want to build one sometime when I'd be doing it for fun.  That way if I have to make one someday when it's not recreational it won't be my first attempt.

[schoolmaster]

What about reloading components salvaged from cartridges you might "find"? How feasable is this?

[Dances with Geoducks]

So if you had to pack up and move, no vehicle, just what you could carry on your back ... how much 4f would you have to take to go along with a pound of black?

4-6 oz should do. Back in the day mountain men carried two horns, a larger one pound and a smaller 1/4 pound pan horn.

If im carrying, thats how Id do it. I have a 1lb horn  a friend made, and a 1835 original 1/4lb horn I bought.
A single cavity bag mold, some pillow tucking for patches.

Id build another rifle, Id leave my 9 pound 42 in barreled 45cal for a 38 inch 40 cal at 6 pounds.

What about reloading components salvaged from cartridges you might "find"? How feasable is this?

You would need a way to remove the bullets. With a 45-70 (or any staight walled case) you could use just about any powder, and melt the bullets and use the lead.
With a Lee classic reloader, you could even recover the primers.

[Victor3]

... how much 4f would you have to take to go along with a pound of black?

 None. You can use whatever granulation you put down the tube in the pan. Slightly slower ignition is the only drawback.

 British troops would bite off the end of a paper cartrige, dump a little of the powder in the pan and pour the rest into the barrel of their Brown Bess muskets.

[myronman3]

i had my eyes opened about this little nugget when i moved last year.  if you are on foot, the 357 gets the nod over a 44 mag when it comes to carrying ammo.  put 1000 rounds of 357 in one bag and 1000 rounds of 44 in another bag, then pick them up.  the difference is astounding. 

[don heath]

The man who can keep a cartridge fed breechloader working when others are down to flintlocks and bows has the edge.

Ultimately, cases have a limited lifespan, but a rimmed straight case like a .357 or .44 isn't too hard to make.

Also, why assume that in an eotw scenario all the accumulated wisdom of the last 200 years will sudenly vanish? Men knew about fulminates back in the 1600's , they just hadn't worked out how to make percussion caps. Men knew about Nitric and sulphuric acids by 1700, they just hadn't worked out how to nitrate wood pulp...We have now, so why plan on going backwards? Yes, some things in the short term would be in short supply, but I can assure you,  basic antibiotics (from Fungi)  would be available from Africa...people would be distilling willow bark to get asprin and all within a very short space of time.

The Key to survival is to have a real skill, something other people will pay you for- like how to make antibiotics, or nitro powder or have a forge than can hammer out cases or...Those with little or no marketable skills will grow food or fight to pay/look after those who have the skills.

[SHOOTALL]

Brain power is one thing you don't have to pack it is always with you , well with most 

[Dixie Dude]

There is also trapping, snaring, gardening, and bow hunting for food.  Save cartridges for 2 legged predators, they will last a long time.  Learn about wild plants for food and medicines if things get that bad.  There is also blacksmithing and machine tooling that people can learn about.  Learn how man made things just before the industrial revolution, one item at a time.  

[vacek]

I agree with Mr. Heath.  Never thought much about doing the Lone Wolf thing.  Better to tribal up and gather around you the necessary people with the essential skill sets.

[Victor3]

Victor...Phos can be concentrated from urine...Sweden became the worlds leading producer of matches because they found the quickest way of concentrating it- traditional french way took 6 months....

 Yes, but you mentioned that it's "easily obtainable." As far as I know it isn't easily obtainable from urine (outside of an industrial setting), nor easily processed into a form usable for making primers.

 Or is it?

[SHOOTALL]

can't it be made brom bat poop collected in caves ? or ash ? check foxfire books

[vacek]

The nitrogen in urine is largely in the urea form CO(NH2)2 which quicky is oxidized by microorganisms to Nitrate (NO3-) when in contact with the soil.  Most of the nitrogen in feces is also in the urea or stable R-C-NH2 (amines / amino acids / peptides / proteins) and will also (longer time) break down into nitrates.  Essentially what is needed is the soil which provides the microorganisms, warm temperatures (microbes are essentially dormant at less than 50 F in soil), adequater oxygen (air) and time.  This is why the old timers used to dig up the soil in chicken runs.  Chicken waste is very high in nitrogen.  They would leach the nitrates (soluble as sugar) out of the soil with water, then slowly evaporate the water off (after they had added a source of either sodium or potassium, usually hardwood ash) to form saltpeter (potassium and/or sodium nitrate).


The saltpeter can now be used (after some purification) for making black powder.... nitric acid (if you knew what you were doing) or dad may have slipped some into Junior's food before he went a'courting. 

[Couger]

I've read more than once that Victor Charlie   (the viet cong) used to like to "bomb" our troops in vietnam with IED's made from black powder ......

I've always guessed the VC and peasants got their black powder from making it!  And the number one (free and clandestine) source of saltpeter or potash would be to make it from human and animal waste!

However chicken manure is indeed an excellent source of urea for making that active ingredient in the USA.

[Couger]

"Another"  twist to this thread ......


WHERE DOES ONE ACTUALLY STILL BUY BLACK POWDER!!??



I'm serious.  Haven't seen any for years!


But for the sake of the subject of this thread, methinks for the purpose TN outlined originally I'd concentrate on using "flake"-form pistol-shotgun powders like UNIQUE,  HERCO,  or BLUEDOT.  That's because those powders work very well in shotguns - despite being dirty (IMO),

Plus their voluminous-ness helps fill the space in a metallic cartridge case better much better than most other propellants.

Also, like previosly mentioned, I also prefer Hodgdon ball powders over all others ...... first, and don't use many stick or flake powders.  

[SHOOTALL]

Green top had BP.
 On another part of this , CASES - would nic or brass be better ? brass seems to turn green when in the weather and in belt loops

[teamnelson]

shootall, great question on the casing! Isn't the nickle just plating and in what conditions would it separate?

couger, i'm a new reloader so i don't fully understand the differences between stick, flake and ball powder. I was thinking strictly economics, i.e. most loads from 1#. Would there be an advantage to powder type?

[SHOOTALL]

I know when you reload them alot it wears off but never saw it flake off even when making 7TCU from 223 rem cases . But as long as it lasted it would protect the brass . Ain't that why cops used it ?
As for powder choice any powder that fills a case more will take up more room in your pack also and add weight for same number of rounds . This exersise was to conserve space and weight ? right ? What better to accomplish this than bullseye ?