Survival Reloading & Casting Efficiency

[teamnelson]

Which caliber is the most efficient ... would get the most number of effective loads (i.e. for routine hunting and defensive tasks, not mammoth or fending off zombie hordes) out of 1 pound of powder, and which powder goes the furthest?

Reason I ask is I have a small tool bag about the size of a loaf of bread that can hold my Lee Hand Press, dies, dipper, 2# lyman pot, ladle, 2 cavity mold, primers, brass, and a 1# can of powder. I can strap the whole thing to a pack, and ready to go. Trying to think like a mountain man, who carried all his makings in his possibles pouch.

[Dixie Dude]

I'm not sure but a .44 mag or .357 mag would be good, since they can be used both in a rifle and pistol.  I figured one time I could get about 166 rounds out of a 30-06 with a pound of powder.  Different powders, different grains of powder, different calibers.  Might have to figure this out with a reloading handbood.

[Badnews Bob]

158 gr SWCs over bullseye out of a .357 would be one of my first choices.

[teamnelson]

Sure, if a pound = 7000 grains ... Right now I have HS-6, and .38-357 loads average 6 grains (5 for .38, closer to 6 for .357, each with 158gr LSWC), so that's 1166 loads out of a pound of powder. Same HS-6 powder in 9mm is about 1166; .327 Mag & .45 ACP yields about 875 loads; .44 Mag & 45 colt about 640. Compare that to about 200 loads in 12 gauge.

I chose those calibers just because I have HS-6, and you can cast for all of them. I cast 158gr bullets for .38/.357, which you get about 44 of from 1# of wheelweights; I figure about 100 out of one muffin ingot, Just for reference.

Sidenote; a Ruger Old Army uses 30gr of the Holy Black, so 230 shots from 1# of powder, and each .458 Round Ball comes in at 294gr or 23 balls from a pound of ww. A lot less gear to carry, but still needs primers, and not quite the punch for the amount of non-renewable resources it requires.

[gypsyman]

I'ld go .357. Got a 155gr -4 cavity NEI mold,SWC. Light enough for small game,self defense, or deer under about 80yds. gypsyman

[Victor3]

 You can load 38 special down to 1 grain of 700X with a 148 grain wadcutter and hot primer (lightest load I've tried). Problem with measuring a tiny dab of powder by hand is doing it accurately and maybe having 1/2 of it blow away if done outside, especially the flake stuff.

 Casting over a campfire would be no biggie, and you could carry along a little tube of liquid Alox. To save weight, I'd get one of the cheap Lee single cavity aluminum moulds and their flimsy (but adequate and light) handles.

[jlwilliams]

  Maybe this is a curveball, but wouldn't it be more efficient to carry an amount of ammunition equal in weight to the possables bag?  Rather than plan on mountain man reloading, you just take loaded ammo and plan on bringing the cases back to the Bat Cave.  Figure on a round like .357 or .223, something that gives you a good count of rounds per pound of pack weight.  That also eliminates the possability of your primers getting wet or otherwise damaged which could blow the whole field reload.

[bilmac]

When I was going to college I used to keep my entire loading setup in a box that was probably about 1 cu ft. I used a Lyman tong tool and was even able to load 270. If I was going to make up a kit it would be baised around the tong tool, the greatest savings of bulk and weight you could make. I'm surprised, I saw one in some catalog the other day, they are still making them, although with far less available die sets.

When I read your question I immediately thought 30-30, I used to make two loads for it, a full power 180 grainer and a 120 grain bullet that shot like a 22. Both shot to the point of aim without changing the sights.

The guys who say 357 have a point though, I can see it would be a good choice if you were carrying the whole rig on your back. The main advantage would be the very efficient use of powder. An added advantage is a guy could carry a small handgun that would shoot the same ammo.

[teamnelson]

Jlwilliams, perhaps I shouldve stated that I will be carrying ammo in good quantity, recycling the brass. But I don't anticipate a bat cave to go back to ... eventually game will play out or move for their own survival.

[jbtazgrabber]

i have a couple h and r rifles chambered for 762x25..but cut a rim in chamber and use 38 brass.this setup will put less than 5 grains red dot 183 grain lead bullet in under a inch at 50 yards all day fill with trail boss and the quiet goes away but it kicks up speed...then fill the case with 4227 and put on a gas check and wow.this is big enough to kill deer at 60 yards........ask me how i know......the tc line up sells brass and barrels its called a 30 reece......it comes real close to 30,30 speeds...plus 38 brass is cheap and light..30 cals do less damage on small game than 38...plus quieter  the 38 always seemed to change point of impact. with differt loads,....jb

[teamnelson]

jbatz, so which one pound of powder would you grab for your 30 reece? red dot, trail boss, or 4227?

[Dances with Geoducks]

Thought about this post for a few days.
You might want to add lube to your pack items.
Id still go with 30-30. The boolits cast up easy.
I can get 230-250 rounds per can. The good part is it will eat just about everything I feed it.
Ball C lot2 seems to get the most out of the can
With two levers, a scope for one & a Handi all in 30-30. It seems I could handle just about anything that comes my way

On a different note, you can use 4grs of Red Dot, for light loads, with cast boolits.
That would be over 1700 loads per can, and serve will for small game hunting.
I think Ill pick up a can and stash it away.

[don heath]

I made a small game load for my .303...0 buckshot pellet, 5grns of MS200 (about like bulseye) for about 900fps. Will work just as well in a .30-30. NB- must use a rimmed cartridge -case shrinks on fireing and so headspace is wrong after a couple of shots in a .308. In my Lee No5 the load shot to point of aim at 25m so I could use it to quietly take guineafowl (or bunnies or anything else that size).

You can also eak out smokless powder with substandard black powder. We cannot get sporting black, only blasting grade (65% salt peter instead of 75-76% for sporting). In my .45 LC I typically load 3grns of MS200 under a full case of Blasting. Give me a 250grn bullet at about 850fps. The BP on its own gives only 550 ish FPS. Same thing with 'home mixed' BP (ie not properly wetted, mixed and dried). Haven't tried it but in a .357 case you would probably only need 1grn or so of modern powder to get sub standard black buring efficiently

Just random thoughts

[teamnelson]

don, thanks for raising the issue of mixing smokeless with blasting grade black. I imagine a few folks are going to get creative after the collapse and try experimental loads with recovered powder and no manuals, to disastrous effect. It is however important to note what you CAN do though, in a pinch so I'm going to file your post away for future reference JIC.

I had thought of going straight BP in my arsenal, but efficiency is higher with smokeless as is performance, so its better to start smokeless and switch to bp cartridge later if you have to.

[Dances with Geoducks]

I intend to use the jacketed and smokeless until there aint no mo

Then go to cast and holy black. Which we can make.

[bilmac]

One advantage of 30 cal over 38 or 44 is that for small game you can save a lot on the heaviest stuff in your pack, the lead. Unless, you have the Lee 115 gr SWC mold. I have used this mold for a long time and it is a favorite of mine. Easy to make good bullets, never seems to lead a gun, uses little powder to get going, and is easier on the lead supply. I would have that and a 160 - 180 gr mold. A couple of Lee aluminum single cavities wouldn't weigh much.   

[don heath]

All Black powder cartridge loads bennefit from a small dose of smokless to get them burning with modern primers. The Winchester LRM and federal 215's are ok at igniting BP but none of the others are. BP is much harder to get going properly than most folk realise- part of the reason pyrodex and other 'substitutes' are popular in BP cartridge shoots. I have several Martini Heneries and a farqueson .450 No1 Musket. I always load 5 grns of something under 80-90 grns black, as we can only get CCI and PMP primers. Doesn't really matter what the smokless is. Pistol up to medium rifle.

IF you are thinking of swtiching over to BP entirely, you need to use something that takes large primers. I have some .357 cases from the 1930's that use large pistol primers (they are now my snake shot loads), but generally you are talking .44/.45. Also, there is no way in hell any of my S&W .44's will work on double action with rifle primers, but my Colt SA (45) and old Ruger flat top (.41) will make any primer go bang

But, considering that you need just 3grns of pistol powder to augment Black powder (and it reduces smoke and fowling alot) in a .44/.45 case and I keep 40-80lbs of the stuff on hand...that is one heck of alot of shooting! Even my regular IPSC load in the .44 is just 6grns MS 200 in a .44 Special case or 6,3grns in a .44 magnum

[don heath]

Also, making smokeless isn't as difficult as people think- Americans think in terms of BP because it is traditional. The Afgans used to use old camera film for reloading their .303's in the early days of their resistance against the russians. In Mozambique I have seen several other 'smokless substitutes'. Any decent high school lab can make you basic smokless...the problem is regulating the burning rate. Camera film chopped into 1cm squares gives a burning rate like Norma 200- most 'home made' smokless concoctions are alot quicker- Bulseye -unique range. With the massive advantages that smokless has over BP somebody will start making it - if they can do so in Africa...they sure as heck will in the states! May make a good case though for sticking to a revolver and rifle chambered for .357 or .44 as you can always use 'homemade' smokless behind a lead bullet. NB- Making jacketed bullets without access to copper plate or tubes takes alot of machinery- alot more than to make smokless powder.

Again, just random thoughts

[vacek]

Don Heath has some great stuff on these forums.

The argument on survival loading always comes down to "sum the weight of your survival loading equipment + powder + primers and substitute with already prepared cartridges.  However, the reloading gives you a lot more options for the weight and because you can download to a point and still have an effective load, you end up with more shots.  With casting capability (a lot of lead will be about if we actually get into the bad bad scenario) again you have more options.  The downloaded round ball has a lot of flexibility.  Seems history indicates the round ball at moderate velocities fed and protected quite a few generations of our ancestors.

[vacek]

Mr Heath,

Regarding cutting film for powder.  1 square cm, or 1 square mm.  A square cm is pretty big.  My typed work "big" is about 1 cm long...

[Dixie Dude]

I've read you could make "gun cotton" out of cotton balls and some type of acid.  It turns the cotton balls dark and they break up to look like a powder.  This is smokeless or the first smokeless powder.  I think the acid was sulfuric acid.  Don't know where you would get that.  Also, if you can't find a bat cave for saltpeter, can you make it from manure?  You can make charcoal from hardwood.  Sulfer might be hard to come by.  You can always buy fireworks and get the bp out of firecrackers and cherry bombs and m-80's.  Just buy it while you still can and store it.  BP is more explosive than smokeless, so putting it in a fireproof safe for storage would be advisable. 

[45-70.gov]

38  with  bullseye

sure the  32  might be better
but  if you gun  breaks
a  38 replacement will  be easier to come by  then ANYTHING else

also  this is to include 357mag  but  mostly 38


my first thought  was  22 hornet
but  a 22lr  isn't that much  weaker  and  whole  bullets will be lighter  and simpler

any thing bigger than  357   is nice but not needed

also  38  brass will be  easier  to aquire than anything else
or even  just to find whole  bullets

[ShadowMover]

When talking 'survival reloading', I assume you mean getting the most shots out of the least powder, lead alloy, and primers. A round ball has some favorable characteristics in this case. A ball takes the least amount of lead to fill a barrel, to seal the bore. A round ball will also 'resize' itself to a slightly smaller bore more easily than a long slab sided bullet, if you don't have the facilities to resize. I have seen rings of lead cut from round balls forced into pistol cartridges by hand.

The powder I'd use would be Bullseye. Yes you have to be careful, no argument about it. You get more shots out of a 1 pound (7000 grain) can than anything else.  Using BP would always be an option. I would rather use home made BP than home made, nitrocellulose powder. The treatment of of guncotton made with mixed nitric and sulfuric acid is beyond most, and the follow up treatment to convert the guncotton to a safe gunpowder is beyond anything a non professional could attempt. Yes the formulas and procedures are out there, but even simple powders like cordite are far too complicated. Straight guncotton will ruin your gun, it is way too fast to use as a propellant. Wet guncotton was used as a filler for naval mines, to give you an idea of how fast it is.

As it stands, you will be limited to how many primers you have. I don't know of any standard, reliable, or published ways to reload a primer.  Primers have been the subject of many improvements. They have removed the mercury that used to be in primers, which is healthier for you and your used brass. They have removed the chlorates and perchlorates that made the chloride residue that would rust a barrel overnight.  The standards and material used now would be hard to duplicate, even though the primer is of simple construction. I'm sure it could be done with a little experimentation, and acceptance of 'corrosive' priming. I remember once seeing an article on reloading 22 LR. I wish I had saved it, just for the information. Anybody else remember that?

Maybe a flintlock or matchlock would be the ideal survival weapon?  22 LR are looking better, as bang per buck.

[SHOOTALL]

If you are using cast bullets then maybe a 357 would have a slight edge over a 30-30 . If you go 357 and can get a mold made with say a 158 gr or 180 gr  SWC on one side and a DEWC on the other you could have a good set up for small game , med game and bad guys . For either 38 or 357 mag cases with lead Bullseye would yeild the most loads maybe . As for lead - strip wheel weights , fishing sinkers , plumbing etc. As for melting lead a tin can will work in a pinch . Carry more primers and powder . I would get a water proof bag for all and heavy duty ziplocks for powder and primers .

[teamnelson]

Bullseye would yeild the most loads maybe.
As for melting lead a tin can will work in a pinch .
I would get a water proof bag for all and heavy duty ziplocks for powder and primers .

Appreciate all that; I keep seeing Bullseye pop up in conversation, so I think its a sign. I've got some wp bags for kayaking that would be just right for a 1# can of powder and primers. The lyman 2# pot is small and light, but like as not someone would want to cook with it, so using a tin can might be smarter.

[SHOOTALL]

Another idea is to take a case wrap a wire around it and soder in place then file down until it holds your charge . This would be good to have if dipper gets lost or crushed .

[Old Fart]

158 gr SWCs over bullseye out of a .357 would be one of my first choices.

I'd even go a bit lower to the 38spl.

[bilmac]

I remember reading stories about how in WW II the Phillipinos used crushed matchheads as powder and I think they even used them to refill the primers.

[vacek]

Here is how I use to make gun cotton when I ran a lab.  This is too fast as is for guns.

1.  Soak cotton in concentrated nitric acid.  The replaces the C - OH bonds in the cellulose with C- NO2.
2.  Rinse the cotton in water to remove excess nitric acid (HNO3).
3.  Now the cotton needs to be dehydrated.  Soak it with concentrated sulfuric acid (H2SO4)
4.  Rinse in cotton to remove excess H2SO4.
5.  Press as much excess water out of the cotton possible.
6.  Dry in an over at around 80 degress celcius.

When touched with a flame.  POOF!!! very fast.  For gunpowder you would need to retard the speed.  Possibly a purified dry clay, or something like that.

[45-70.gov]

Bullseye would yeild the most loads maybe.
As for melting lead a tin can will work in a pinch .
I would get a water proof bag for all and heavy duty ziplocks for powder and primers .

Appreciate all that; I keep seeing Bullseye pop up in conversation, so I think its a sign. I've got some wp bags for kayaking that would be just right for a 1# can of powder and primers. The lyman 2# pot is small and light, but like as not someone would want to cook with it, so using a tin can might be smarter.

i  didnt  mention  bullseye because  it is such and obvious choise
38  357  and 44 mag..........all  have an approprate lee  dipper  so no scales are  needed
                                 now that  the  loads are  worked   out
                             these are  my general purpose  loads
                          they are not  hot  but are  hot enough
                        and  easy to repeat  when they run out.......with out a scale

i  once  read an article about  rebuilding primers
with  STRIKE ANYWHERE  matches.........can you say  titious
and  think about  this...rebuilding  primers......with  no mental  health care available