Author Topic: Beginning to think I made a poor choice  (Read 1507 times)

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Offline vacek

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Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« on: February 20, 2010, 05:39:17 AM »
OK, I'm a little slow.   In 1985 I had a ticket to go to Australia for the summer to metal detect for gold nuggets.  A buddy was going to go with me. We both taught at a Jr. College and had the summer off.  Anyway he backed out  and I got engaged before the summer came along.  I was talked out of the trip by fiance and mother. 

Regardless, in preparation for the trip (Australia was more open to firearms then)  I had a H&R Topper in 22 Hornet converted to a .223, and had the smith work a little on the trigger. I get a lot of misfires with factory, military and reloads.  By other posts, that seems endemic to .223 Handis.

Not even having heard about headspace back in 85 I am now wondering if that is the issue.  I left the gun with a gunsmith regarding the issue.  Also, could it be a combination of headspace, short firing pin and an overheated barrel.  The other day the first 8-10 shots went well and then as usual the misfires began. 

So as a rule of thumb do handis do better with rimmed cartriges versus rimmless?

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 05:52:22 AM »
vacek

I have both and have seen no real difference between rimmed VS rimmless , as to the 223 mis-firing , I have well over 10,000 rounds through mine ( 223 Rem ) and the only mis-fire I have had was when I seated a primer upside down .

The headspace would be the first thing that I looked at since you had the chamber re-worked , with your handloads , did you ever try just neck sizing or partial FL sizing ? and not bump the shoulder back .

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Offline canon6

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 05:58:09 AM »
To  give you a short answer,IMHO the Handi's do tend to work better with rimmed cartridges.Now having said that there are a bunch of guys here that use non-rimmed. I have had both and am now down to only rimmed rounds.I am sure others will chime here on the care and feeding of the 223.  hth     Doug
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 06:09:43 AM »
I'm thinking that frame is not great for .223 in the first place. Any chance you shot enough with .223 pressure loads to stretch it and ruin gap from the breech to the primer?

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 06:28:56 AM »
some here seem to speak against rimless cartridges in Handis every chance they get, none of those have spoken up so far and that is good. As for me, Handis work great with rimless cartridges, especially the .223, but I like rimmed cartridges in them as well. I have never had a problem with any .223 misfiring in any of my several Handis in that cartridge. It may be a headspace issue from the rechambering. You should be able to check that pretty well by checking an unfired case in the chamber. Remove the barrel from the frame and use a straightedge across the breech face....<><....:)
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Offline gendoc

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 06:31:56 AM »
i'm with stimpy on that one....
never had a ftf on any of my .224's
even other than h&r's.

head space could be the problem....but, i'd look in other areas
like powder/primer configurations, contamination and pin strikes.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 06:42:49 AM »
The only reason why rimmed cartridges should be considered more suitable for Handis is they're generally low pressure and they worked best in ejector barrels which have a bad habit of causing failures to eject(FTE), but even that can be avoided by not using hot loads and working with a clean, polished chamber and tuned ejector ala FAQs.

But H&R no longer makes ejector centerfire rifle barrels, hasn't for several years, so rimmed or rimless even in a high pressure round is a moot point. Even ejector barrels can be converted to factory extractors at home or by a gunsmith, so that makes the FTE problem a non-issue, the rim isn't a saving grace, it's the pressure they operate at and the breech thrust created, I've had FTEs in my 405Win H&R with max loads, it's a rimmed round also. On the other hand, I had no FTE's with the experimental 300WSM at mid level loads under 60kpsi, it has a rebated rim, those loads were just too much for the frame due to the huge case head and caused internal action flex, but they never did FTE in the ejector barrel.

The only failure to fire issues I've had that I couldn't attribute to bad primers has been on the 45-70 Ultra which has a too deep rim cut, too much headspace can affect rimmed rounds just as easily as a rimless round.

Tim
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 09:33:33 AM »
Maybe you made the poor choice in 1) getting married ? or 2) not going to Oz ? Guns you can fix.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 10:28:38 AM »
OK, I'm a little slow.   In 1985 I had a ticket to go to Australia for the summer to metal detect for gold nuggets.  A buddy was going to go with me. We both taught at a Jr. College and had the summer off.  Anyway he backed out  and I got engaged before the summer came along.  I was talked out of the trip by fiance and mother.  

Regardless, in preparation for the trip (Australia was more open to firearms then)  I had a H&R Topper in 22 Hornet converted to a .223, and had the smith work a little on the trigger. I get a lot of misfires with factory, military and reloads.  By other posts, that seems endemic to .223 Handis.

Not even having heard about headspace back in 85 I am now wondering if that is the issue.  I left the gun with a gunsmith regarding the issue.  Also, could it be a combination of headspace, short firing pin and an overheated barrel.  The other day the first 8-10 shots went well and then as usual the misfires began.  

So as a rule of thumb do handis do better with rimmed cartriges versus rimmless?

I would say you have been a little slow in asking about it... :D ;)

Headspace like others have already said is the most likely reason,that and the fact since it is that old of gun you might well have stretched the frame or have some lug set back.

Check the FAQ's here...there is a ton of information you can use to verify what the issue is..or..take it back to the gunsmith that did your work on it and ask him..provided he is still around..Did you had problems from the get go with it as a Hornet?

BTW...I have never really had any issues with my ejector barrels ejecting except for 2..1 had a oversized chamber and the other was caused by the previous owner messing up the ejector to extractor fix that Tim has talked about ..
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline vacek

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 01:06:27 PM »
gcrank,

That marriage was the best decision I ever made.  22 years and going strong.  Have now been to Oz 6 times.  In 2006 took that wife and our 16 year old daughter there for a month.  Oz is a very cool place. :)

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 04:02:17 AM »
Very glad to hear that!*!*! After re-reading your OP I got to thinking that maybe , like the 'Car Talk' guys, you had thrown in the gun question to 'obfuscate'(sp?) the rest.
I concur that you can probably solve this with careful adjustment of the dies to match brass to your chamber. Remember too that 'surplus' ammo may have harder than commercial primers.
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Offline vacek

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 04:58:36 AM »
"Obfuscate" ... To substantiate BS?  Seeing as I am originally from Texas that's probably true.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 05:13:56 AM »
'obfuscate'......a ten dollar word for the five dollar,'to confuse' (the issue or question).
Truth be known, I'm probably a Texican who just never lived there. Visited several times and passed up a job offer in Big-D in the late '70s. At this point in my life Wisconsin winters are getting a bit hard to chew.
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We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
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Offline vacek

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 12:32:10 PM »
Knowing what I know now, I wish I had that little handi in a 22 Hornet.  At the time I thought I would need more power.  Also hornets were expensive.  Sooner or later I want a Hornet, 30-30, and 45 LC in the Handi. Matter of Time.

A person from Wisconsin living in Texas would be interesting.  All questions and statements would end with YouBetcha- Y'all.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 12:54:39 PM »
Handis that use rimmed cartridges almost never give any trouble.  Rimless cartridges on the other hand do give trouble.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Beginning to think I made a poor choice
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 04:04:26 AM »
Nope, that would be a 'Minisotor' livin in Texas.....We talk like everybody else.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974