.45-70 How hot?

[cult .44]

My .45-70 Handi Rifle is turning out to be very fun to shoot. I think maybe I'm becoming a recoil junkie (it hurts so good, at least after adding a pound of weight to the stock and a Limbsaver pad). And working up loads has been fun too.

Anyway, after establishing a 300 gr JHP load that I like, I'm now working on 350 gr JRN bullets. I'm aiming towards a load that will use about 50 grains of Reloader 7, this will be slightly over what Hornady recommends as maximum for Level II loads. I'm thinking I'll probably be safe, here. But I also want to work up a load with a 400 gr JFP to around 1900 fps. This load definitely would be in Level III territory, although short of maximum. My impression from reading here and elsewhere is that it would probably handle it fine (sore shoulder notwithstanding).

What are people's experience with powerful .45-70 loads for the Handi?

[Daman]

OUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mechanic]

I tried some Garrett "Rhino Loads".  I still have most of them in case a rhino shows up.

[FLNT4EVR]

I loaded up some of the Beartooth Piledriver jr's ,and shot a few of them too.Like Mechanic,  I saved the rest. For the most part now I keep my loads just a tad over trapdoor levels.Heavy loads have their place,but for punching paper from a bench, lighter is better.

[quickdtoo]

But I also want to work up a load with a 400 gr JFP to around 1900 fps. This load definitely would be in Level III territory, although short of maximum. My impression from reading here and elsewhere is that it would probably handle it fine (sore shoulder notwithstanding).

What are people's experience with powerful .45-70 loads for the Handi?

400gr at 1900fps is still a levergun load by Hodgdon data, they list loads to 1995fps for the Speer 400gr. I shoot Ruger loads in my H&R 45-70s, the latest being the 300gr TSX-FB using Barnes data in the SS Ultra Hunter. Considering the SB2 frame is used on the factory chambered 500S&W Handi which has a bigger case head and a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi and operating pressures of ~53kpsi, 55kpsi Barnes data in the 45-70 is no problem for the rifle, although it can be for the shooter! 

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/45-70RugerNo1Web.pdf

[workin man]

I have only shot factory loaded Hornady 325gr ftx's out of mine, which are supposed to have a muzzle velocity of 2050fps. If the advertised velocity is accurate, the recoil should be about the same as the 350gr round nose loads you mentioned. Shooting them offhand (factory recoil pad, no weight added), I would describe the recoil as about equal to 3-1/2" 12ga high velocity steel loads, heavy, but not unmanageable. I am guessing they wouldn't be much fun off the bench though.

Jim

[ruppster]

Last outing I shot 10 300gr JHPs loaded with 60gr of H4198. Hodgdon shows that as the max levergun load (40kcup). I was standing, shooting from a tall bench. It kicked plenty hard for me with a 4x shotgun scope, the factory pad, no weight, & a flannel shirt. I can hit the 300yd plate with that load (6"x10") and I feel secure that if any buffalo or rhinos attack my house, my family should remain safe. 

[tykempster]

Lots of H4198 and any bullet you like!

[manatee1947]

My question is why? If you just love pain, I can show you a quick design with a garage door spring, a hinge, and a 2X4 that will fullfill all your dreams and not cost any money, or make any noise (except for the screams). If you are going to Africa for cape buffalo or elephant, possibly. However , once the target has been penetrated, what point is more energy? That is why hunting here in my area with a 30/30 is just as effective as a 300 weatherby. If you get excellent accuracy, the rest is irrelevant, paper can't tell the difference. At the original Creedmoor matches the mid range trajectories were like 28-35 FEET, with cartridges like 45-70, 45-90, 44-77 class. The original buffalo hunters sure never had any 400gr 2000fps loads, and they virtually exterminated an entire species.

[Dances with Geoducks]

My standard 45-70 loads are:

350gr jacketed PP 50gr R-7  1765fps
400gr RN cast        40gr R-7  1650fps
500gr Postel Cast   35gr R-7  1250fps

I ran them out to 2.260 using a veggie wad and dacon filler to take up space.

I  dont consider any of these loads overly hot, recoil isnt squat.

[PawPaw]

That's the beauty of this old caliber.  It's so darned versatile.  For myself, I shoot cat bullets made from dead-soft lead in my .45-70s and I keep them to black powder velocity, about 1300 fps.  In the woods I hunt, they're plenty good medicine for the whitetail deer.  I enjoy recoil, but choose not to crank hard on this particular cartridge.

If someone else wants to crank the cartridge up to modern pressures, I applaud the effort.  It increases our knowledge base and lets us know what's possible.   With the modern propellants we've seen over the past fifteen years, it's possible to do things that weren't possible when I started toying with reloading presses.

[cult .44]

My question is why?

Fair question. Curiosity is one reason. Pushing a 400 grain bullet to 1900+ fps may be short of elephant gun power but it's in the neighborhood. With a Handi, apparently, I can get a real-life sense of what it's like to shoot a dangerous-game gun without having to spend the money on a Weatherby rifle. Another reason is the challenge of being able to shoot a hard-kicking rifle accurately. It's an excersise in discipline and control. And, I have to admit, there's a certain thrill in trying to wield and manage that raw power.

Of course enough may be enough. By the time I work up my 350 grain loads to the 1900-2000 fps vicinity, I (and my shoulder) may decide that's all the recoil discipline I want.

400gr at 1900fps is still a levergun load by Hodgdon data

I was looking at the Speer data for its 400 gr JFP. It lists 52 grains of Reloader 7 (1934 fps) as max level III. Although in the notes it says the loads were tamed down a bit to accommodate the shorter throats of newer model Ruger #1 rifles where you have to seat the bullet to the front cannelure (COL 2.54").

Which raises a question: How long of a COL will the Handi tolerate in .45-70? I've been sticking with what appears to be standard - 2.55".

[quickdtoo]

Speer uses lower pressure limits for each level, Speer and Lyman both use 28kcup as the max levergun level, Hodgdon uses the SAAMI level for trapdoor of 28kpsi(28kcup), 40kcup for levergun and 50kcup for Modern rifles.

COL will depend on your barrel, but H&R 45-70 barrels are notoriously short throated, I have 5 of them, 3 had short throats and wouldn't allow some 350gr and most 400gr jacketed bullets to be seated to the SAAMI standard of 2.55", so I throat reamed them, my first BC barrel was rechambered to 45-120 before I even shot it, so I don't know how the throat was in it, my SS Ultra Hunter has a decent throat in it allowing me to seat the 300gr TSX-FB tp 2.75" which is the recommended .050" off the lands. If you do a search on short 45-70 throats you'll see the many complaints about them. Best advice is to make a simple COL tool from a case like Fred shows in the FAQs to determine actual maximum COL with the bullet of choice.

Tim

[cult .44]

make a simple COL tool from a case like Fred shows in the FAQs

I apologize. I haven't been able to find this in the FAQs.

[quickdtoo]

Follow the directions at the top of the page in the FAQs to search the page using ctrl f to find any word on the page. 

Tim

Hold down the ctrl key and hit f, a search window will open, type the word you're looking for and hit enter, keep hitting enter or next until you find what you're looking for.

[AtlLaw]

My question is why?

Fair question. Curiosity is one reason. Pushing a 400 grain bullet to 1900+ fps may be short of elephant gun power but it's in the neighborhood. With a Handi, apparently, I can get a real-life sense of what it's like to shoot a dangerous-game gun ...

I understand completely, but why limit yourself to such a light load? 

(he says sitting back smiling self-righteously to himself and with a knowing nod to Tim, Tyler and the other 45-120 shooters out there...    )

[McLernon]

I know a guy who loads his handgun in 45-70 with a 350 gr boolit to 2300 fps and I watched him group 5 shots in 5 inches at 15 yards. I am not so tough..............I load my 1895 to 1500 fps with a 350 JRN and that gives plenty of recoil for me..............killed a bear with it this summer...........so it works. I am too old for recoil.

Mc

[quickdtoo]

I understand completely, but why limit yourself to such a light load? 

(he says sitting back smiling self-righteously to himself and with a knowing nod to Tim, Tyler and the other 45-120 shooters out there...    )

[mechanic]

My question is why?

Fair question. Curiosity is one reason. Pushing a 400 grain bullet to 1900+ fps may be short of elephant gun power but it's in the neighborhood. With a Handi, apparently, I can get a real-life sense of what it's like to shoot a dangerous-game gun ...

I understand completely, but why limit yourself to such a light load? 

(he says sitting back smiling self-righteously to himself and with a knowing nod to Tim, Tyler and the other 45-120 shooters out there...    )

I see how this goes...youse' guys got your own little club now huh?  Hard to deal with us mere mortals?

[cult .44]

but why limit yourself to such a light load?

Oh, I suppose I'm just taking baby steps. Rampaging rhinos aren't a big problem around here yet so I figure I have time.

[Mac11700]

Have you ever owned a really fast older car? Did you ever take it out for a ride and tromp the gas pedal,just to see what it would do? This is what the 45-70 is..It's so capable of shooting mild loads (idling slowly) but still capable of giving you that blast and punch with the rearward slam into the bucket seats with the heavy ones. Some like this all the time,but many want a nice sedate sedan that putts along...without all the fanfare. The 45-70 is a wolf in sheep's clothing..a sleeper car if you prefer the analogy of the automobile.It will putt along with the sedate crowd just fine and still roar off the starting line on the green christmas tree lights when called upon..Drive it as you see fit..

Mac

[brad925]

One thing about rodding the loads up on the 45-70 in the B.C is that factory sight that it comes with all of a sudden becomes alot more usable. My B.C using 300gr. remingtons hits dead on at 300yds. without hold over and i am only using half of my rear sights elevation adjustment.

[PHATINJUN]

Iv'e not done it with mine but ain't it safe to say you will hurt yourself before you hurt the gun... ;)loadem up Kurt

[Chas.]

Mac11700, I think you drew a very valid analogy.  Tromp it if you want, putt-putt if you don't. 

As far as 45-70 handgun loads, mine (BFR) is actually easier to shoot with modest recoil than any of my 45-70 rifles.  I think it's because my arms act as recoil dampeners with the handgun, but my entire frame has to absorb the recoil of a rifle.

[miyata]

I've become a bit of a recoil junky... last weekend I went to a shoot held by The Big Game Rifle Club and I was given the opportunity to shoot the following cartridges....

.318 Westley Richards

9.3 x 74R

.350 Rigby

.375 H&H Magnum

.450/.400 Nitro Express

.470 Nitro Express

.500 Nitro Express

.500 Jeffery


Mostly in double rifles.   Wow, what an experience.

Only the Jeffery hurt and that was at the end of the day.

I used the 500 Nitro in a competition event that required three groups of 4 shots, each group of 4 in less than 16 seconds.  And it's a double rifle.  You need a sit down after doing that.  No, I didn't win any prizes.

Now I want to own a double rifle... just to get my fix of recoil pain.  There may be a Handi in .499 Hubel Express in my future.... the whimpy .45-120 just isn't enough....LOL.
 

[AtlLaw]

the whimpy .45-120 just isn't enough....LOL.

 

Looks like I gwanna hafta try a little bit a yo butt on boy!     The again I might just let Tyler handle my light work... 

I would have LOVED to have the oportunity to shoot those rifles!  I have never shot any of the cartridges you listed.     And the mere thought of shooting them in classic express or double rifles just makes my eyes roll up in the back of my head and my hands shake!   

[PawPaw]

I was once a recoil junkie, until I got the opportunity to be a gunner on an M551 Sheridan ACAV vehicle back in the '70s.

Great vehicle until you fired the main gun.  That HEAT charge was so stiff and the vehicle was so light that gunners routinely got black eyes from the sight.  The front two road wheels would come off the ground when the gun fired.  About half the time the recoil would shear the bolts holding the ballistic computer to the turret and the computer would fall on the gunner.  We gunners got together and went to ACE hardware, bought hardened bolts for our computers. 

I've fired bigger guns, but that one smacked me harder than anything else.  I'll stick to my old black-powder-equvalent loads in the .45-70.  You other fellows have fun doin' what you do.

[miyata]

 

[gcrank1]

Im a'thinkin from that , a man may only have allotted just so many kicks he can take, then game over.

[dpe.ahoy]

Ya'll go play and play nice.   I like my retina's attached, thank you.   Mid-level 45-70's or hot 444 Marlins are enough for this old man, and I like, no, really like my Limbsaver recoil pads.   DP