Author Topic: 22 hornet and heavy bullets (Read 4673 times)

sabbatus · « **on:** February 05, 2010, 02:27:19 PM »

i just received my hornet barrel from ilion, and quick to.(lees than two week from shipping to receiving) with a 1 in 9 twist i am thinking of playing with bullets in the 60-75 grain class just for s and g's. has anyone done this and care to share some load info with me. i know that they will be slow moving, but fun all the way if it works out. thanks

trotterlg · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2010, 04:59:24 PM »

Those are about twice as heavy as a normal Hornet bullet, but it will probably work. You will probably have to go to a slower powder than you will see in load data for a Hornet, normal powder is the speed of AA 1680 so I think you will be needing somethig in the range of AA 2520 or even Winchester 760. But that is just a wild guess with a little experience built in. Remember it is a science project, so go slow, but don't load too light, and I would use some hotter primers like Winchester 7 1/2's or CCI Br4's or 450's just to make sure you get that slower ball powder properly lit. Let us know if it works and if you can type with all your fingers. Larry

McLernon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2010, 05:26:50 PM »

Allot of Hornets have a twist of 1:16 so generally your experiment will not work..................not sure what Handi's have but anything over 1:12 may not stabilize even the shorter heavies. Also of concern are terminal ballistics with strong heavy bullets. Remember that you will need about 2000 fps at the target to get bullet expansion.............just my thoughts.

Best wishes

Mc

sabbatus · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2010, 06:11:45 PM »

the new handi barrel i have is a 1 in 9 twist, the faster twist should stabilize a longer bullet. since this is mostly for target work i am not so much worried about expansion or speed. just curious about using a small volume case to push a heavier than normal bullet. Going to a slower powder makes sense, now its just figuring a safe start load, as the risk of not building enough pressure is always there. and yet it would be so easy to over pressure such a heavy bullet. thanks for the input. i wonder what other ideas are floating out there.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2010, 06:19:54 PM »

The 22 Hornet 1.29" case is also used for the R.E.N - .277 bullets!

trotterlg · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2010, 08:10:31 PM »

A hornet case holds about 13 gr of ball powder with a little room in the neck for the bullet. I would go with some powder that is suited for a heavy bullet in a .221 FB or even a .223 and load it first to about 75% capacity, The Handi is very strong, so the worst you will probably get is a blown primer, so tie it to a tree and have a go at it, no room for Sissies here. Larry

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 06, 2010, 02:22:15 AM »

In such a small case it will be very sensitive to bullet seat depth changes too. In just a tad more will boost pressures, so keep it consistent. Some other calibers use some 'tricks' to lower launch pressures, like the long throat in Weatherbys, so dont seat the bullet too long and jam it into the rifling, give it a little start room. With those considerations in mind go with the 75% of capacity idea for starters.
BTW, I subscribe to the 'overstabilization is a myth' school of thought. The faster twist is something the Hornet (and some other cal.s) have needed for years. The original 1:16 was on the edge with 45gr. bullets and they are like about a 115gr. in a 30 cal. Nobody shoots those in matches, do they?
Not only will the faster twist allow you to stabilize the longer, thus heavier, bullets with a much better ballistic cooefficient but it will allow you to shoot at subsonic velocities with much improved wind drift factors (but I suspect you already know this, that why you are building this rifle up).

PowPow · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2010, 04:09:48 AM »

Similar experience to what Trotterig is saying about slow powders.
My 1:9 is a 223.
Conventional wisdom was to use heavy bullets.
But the right answer for me was that H380 (slow burner compared to the usual 223 powders) is now my go-to for 40-70 grains.

BTW - not a whole lot of trees to tie my gun to at the range.
When I have one of those loads, I lay the gun on the bench and cover it with a bag of sand.
Only the trigger and last several inches of the barrel are exposed.

dwalk · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2010, 11:20:19 AM »

keep in mind that the .22 hornet brass is THIN, too...pretty important to monitor pressure.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2010, 11:54:32 AM »

I wouldn't do it. I'd go to a different caliber if I wanted a heavier bullet.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2010, 12:08:51 PM »

I will say, that I too had the same idea with my newly acquired hornet with a 1-9" rate of twist. I loaded up some hornady 55 gr soft points and accuracy was terrible with lil gun. One thing to note when you go to reload, RP cases have more capacity than Winchester cases. I accidentally loaded a Win. case with a bunch of RP cases and the win case blew the primer and the rest showed no signs of pressure. Good luck and let us know your results, I will be watching.

Thanks,
Matt

oh and one more thing. With 12.4 gr Lil gun in a Win case pushing the 34gr varmint nightmares from Midsouth, It was a dime sized 4 shot group at 50 yards. (it was cold as a coal miners... nose and all I had was a sand bag so I dont know what it is truly capable of yet, but its very promising)

sabbatus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2010, 03:49:29 PM »

looking at load data for the 221 fireball and 70 grain bullet i see them using imr 3031, imr 4198 and imr 4064. i have all on hand. i think i might start with the 3031 as i have had good luck with it in everything that i use it in..And i have never needed to use a mag primer to touch it off. But powder suggestions are more than welcome. other powders i have are unique, h4831, lil gun, and imr4350. using the 75% capacity theory, is there any way to get a ball park idea of pressure before assembling these loads. it looks like the 221 has roughly double the case capacity of the hornet. thanks for the input so far to all. mike the easy thing to do is go to a bigger caliber, and probably the smartest to. but i like the hard road, its difficult and confusing but the end result is so much more rewarding

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2010, 06:54:28 PM »

30-31 is fairly large stick powder which is much easier to light off than ball powder is. You will probably find that you cannot get much in a Hornet case no matter what the loading charts tell you. My guess is that even a starting load will be very near a compressed charge. Larry

Matt3357 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2010, 07:25:21 PM »

I have also heard from several different sources that small pistol primers are much more accurate than SR primers. Not sure why, but I used it and had good success. Good Luck.

Thanks,
Matt

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2010, 06:35:06 AM »

"Allot of Hornets have a twist of 1:16 so generally your experiment will not work..................not sure what Handi's have but anything over 1:12 may not stabilize even the shorter heavies."

Actually very few H&R Hornets have 1-16" twist lots are 1-12 and the new ones are 1-9. Not sure about the heavy bullets but I just found a very good light bullet load for the 1-16" twist that I hope I can make work in my Model 157 with the 1-16" it's 30gr Varmint Grenade with a full case (13gr) of Lilgun over 3100fps now to find some Remington 6 1/2 primers. Kurt

blind ear · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2010, 06:52:56 AM »

My 1985 H&R hornet only shoots keyholes with bullets over 45 grains. eddie

sabbatus · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2010, 07:26:15 AM »

its true that not much 3031 fits in there. just over 11 gr. capacity. worked out 75% is 8.25 gr. test assembled some, when loaded with 8gr. 3031 the powder rests at the large end of the case shoulder, a 75 gr hornady bthp loaded 1/16th off the rifling leaves the boat tail sticking out of the neck. i am trying to keep the initial test of this to powder i have on hand, if i get any success at all then i may move on to powder i dont normally keep around. the only two ball powders i have are lil gun and hs-7.

Tallwalker · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2010, 08:57:40 AM »

It would be really interesting to see how that gun would do with 50-55 grain cast bullets! I have some that really need to be pushed to get decent accuracy in a 1-14 twist Ruger. I would stick with nothing slower than RL-7 in the Hornet myself.

mike@nds · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2010, 10:37:04 AM »

Sounds like H&R only buys one type of barrel blank and makes the Hornets out of whatever flavor twist is in vouge on the .223.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2010, 10:55:49 AM »

H&R doesn't buy blanks, Marlin makes them for H&R, they start with a solid 4140 stock that is 36" long for centerfire rifle barrels, 1137 for shotgun and rimfires. Later this year H&R will be making their own barrels at the new barrel plant in Ilion, I suspect the new hammer forged operation is there also, but H&R barrels will be buttoned. The move to 1:9" for the Hornet just saves production cost in not having to make another specific twisted .224" barrel, it's a wonder they haven't changed the 22-250 also.

Tim

Couger · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2010, 11:12:25 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

H&R doesn't buy blanks, Marlin makes them for H&R, they start with a solid 4140 stock that is 36" long for centerfire rifle barrels, 1137 for shotgun and rimfires. Later this year H&R will be making their own barrels at the new barrel plant in Ilion, I suspect the new hammer forged operation is there also, but H&R barrels will be buttoned. The move to 1:9" for the Hornet just saves production cost in not having to make another specific twisted .224" barrel, it's a wonder they haven't changed the 22-250 also.

I for one, don't have a problem with the 1-9 twist design. Suppose it will add to the Hornet's finicki-ness, but should make the .22-250 more of a "deer cartridge" with heavier slugs.

Ken Waters ("Pet Loads" author) once actually wrote one of his articles about 1-9 .22-250's used specifically for killing deer (with several 60 and 70 grain bullets).

That's good info, Tim. Hope the creation and start of H&R's new barrel making venture goes smoothly.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2010, 11:17:45 AM »

I hope that H&R starting their own barrel production will increase availability of barrels for the barrel program and new rifles, having to wait for barrels from Marlin seems to be a real bottleneck for both products.

Tim

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2010, 02:34:17 PM »

If'n I ever get a Hornet barrel I want to try some 50 Varmint Grenades. I haven't seen any yet but they should be fairly long.As Tim said I've wondered why they didn't go to 1:9 with the 22-250 before the Hornet unless they already had a lot of 250 barrels made up??? How long is the chamber in the 1:9 Hornet? I don't see an advantage for shooting very HEAVY bullets in the Hornet. But it may be better shooting the longer unleaded bullets of the future. They may be more accurate than the old shorter bullets for the Hornet.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2010, 04:32:59 PM »

Eddie whats the twist on your 1985 ? Kurt

sabbatus · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2010, 05:07:02 PM »

the nearest i can tell using a cerrocast of the chamber is that it is1.400 in long with a additional .060 throat ahead of the case mouth. using standard bullets this is allowing me to load a 50 gr sierra spitzer blitz to a o.a.l. of 1.920. this set the bullet to just touching the rifling. this chamber could easily handle any of the lead free style bullets. this barrel is brand new, i have put 50 rds through it just for the initial break in using the same bullet just listed and 9.5 gr of lil gun. already seeing 1 inch groups at 100 yds for 5 rounds. i think it will get better from here. i am just very curious about using a long heavy bullet in the hornet, since its twist is so fast compare to whats normal for this cartridge. now i am just waiting for the weekend when i can go to the range and do some testing. my local range was closed this weekend due to the 30 inches of snow that decided to pay us a visit.

sabbatus · « **Reply #25 on:** February 07, 2010, 05:11:19 PM »

correction, remeasured the cerrocast and it is 1.420 not 1.400. i need to learn better typing skills

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #26 on:** February 07, 2010, 05:27:21 PM »

You better take a snowblower with you, shovel will wear you out and won't be able to shoot good

I doubt it will shoot light bullets well

I like the lighter bullets for what I use the Hornet for. Great if the 50s are shooting that good.

Kurt, I tried the 30 VGs in two Rugers I have. The 20" lightweight shot about one hole with I'm thinking about 12 gr Lil Gun. The heavier barrel didn't shoot as good but I only shot a few of the same load. The guns like different combinations. I liked those sweet little bullets. I've used the 36 gr.ers in 223 and they kill real good. The VGs may not need as high velocity so the 50 gr may be accurate in the 1:9 Hornet. I don't know what the pressures would do with a heavier bullet with little powder in Horn. case. They are a weak case IMO

blind ear · « **Reply #27 on:** February 08, 2010, 04:01:26 AM »

PHATINJUN the faqs says 1:16 and I have never checked it but I did try to load heavier bullits. Too slow evidently. eddie

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** February 08, 2010, 05:14:15 AM »

The FAQs pre '87 Hornet twist has a question mark behind it because no one else except Kurt has reported an old Hornet barrel as being 1:16", they may all be, but we don't know that yet, at the bottom of the twist rate list you'll find instructions on how to check it.

Tim

billy_56081 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 08, 2010, 05:30:05 AM »

Twist rate is only one of the factors in stabilizing a bullet. Velocity is the second factor needed. A 22 hornet will have a hard time stabilizing a bullet over 55 grains even with a 1 in 9 twist.