Author Topic: Hot Barrel, which way? (Read 1080 times)

Old Cane · « **on:** November 04, 2003, 10:54:08 AM »

Been noticing a lot of you are stating you wait between shots. Not a bad idea for a hunting rifle since normally your barrel will be cold when you take your shot at game. I have borrowed my brother-in-law's Win. M70 in 30/06 for this season and shot about 40 rounds the other day. Some were 4 within 30 seconds, some were one a minute. I noticed sometimes they started climbing as it heated up. Is that the way you guys see your shots go with a hot barrel?

Also, I am 6'3" and over 300 lbs (ok, way over). A 30/06 beats me up pretty bad. My Savage did the same as this Winchester. Am I a sissy? Are these guns just a bad fit? I'm thinking Tikka becasue the MC stock always seems to fit me better. And I'm thinking 243 or 25-06 since I am such a recoil wuss. Does anyone else have this problem? I have been wanting a 300 Wby Mag for a long time but even with a brake if it hits like a 30/06 I don't want to run screaming like a little girl after a dozen rounds.

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:36:27 PM »

I love it. :-D

Just how does the '06 beat you up? If it gets into your face then yes that is rifle fit. The "Weatherby" radical stock design is perhaps the best there ever was to reduce the effects of the heavy kickers from getting you in the face. Generally speaking a straight stock like a Classic will bring the recoil straight back into your shoulder. This keeps it from beating your face also.

If the pain is in the shooting shoulder maybe you have a medical problem. I do. Rotator cuff problems will make them all hurt you. Even the lowly .243 with 100 grain bullets is painful to my right shoulder if I don't use some type of pad between the rifle and shoulder. I use a 1/2" thick PAST Magnum recoil pad when shooting from the bench no matter what centerfire I shoot. The '06 is about my upper limit these days even outfitted like this. I'm told surgery is way over due and will fix the problem but is likely to put me pretty much out of circulation for months as I understand it. I'm putting it off but the pain even every day without shooting long guns is beginning to be more than I can deal with. Next year is likely gonna be the year for surgery for me.

GB

Dave in WV · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:01:28 PM »

Everything Graybeard is on target and I'll add your bench shooting form may contribute to your pain. If you are all "hunkered" down and leaning forward you will get all of the punch. If you are more upright and not leaning forward more than you would shooting off hand you get less felt recoil. In other words if you can"t move back with the rifle it's gonna hurt more.

redial · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2003, 05:53:32 PM »

It's been my experience that bigger fellas have the hardest time with the physical aspects of recoil, contrary to what you'd think - for the same reasons as listed above. The greater the mass, the more resistance it offers to an impulse. No foolin', huh?

As for the walking barrels, YUP they often walk when heating or cooling and NOPE I'm not going to start a thread about cryo treatments.

As a coach and competitor, I'll offer that you may be lifting your head off the stock prior to firing. Given that both rifles "walk" in the same direction, I think it's position and follow through rather than a gun problem.

Cheers!

Redial

Old Cane · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2003, 02:06:32 AM »

It's my shoulder that gets beat up. And, yes, at the bench leaning forward, standing upright, sitting, it makes no difference. I have always had a problem of holding the stock the way I am told but this time I made a point of it anyway. I usually wind up with the top of the recoil pad up in the air and the bottom tip into my shoulder and usually too far out over the ball joint of my shoulder. Nothing has ever come up and hit me in the eye. My body always takes the hit, all of it. As far as I know there is nothing physically wrong with me (mentally....ask my wife) and this has been a problem since I was maybe 9 and moved up to the 20 guage.

This time I made a point and no matter how uncomfortable it was (kind of gives me the sensation of holding a phone with no hands between your hear and should, you know, so you can have both hands free) I held it they way I know I've always been told to. My dad was a fine coach as is my brother-in-law. They have told me all of my life I have good shooting form (when they are around I do). But no matter what position I use I get the purple and green shoulder.

I know there are lots of guys bigger than me that deal with this (BIL is 6'9" and it's his gun I'm using) and lots of smaller and lighter guys and gals that shoot big magnums just fine. The funny thing is I have no problem with handgun recoil. The bigger and hotter the better. Maybe I just need to get a 50 AE pistol and a 22 rifle.

tominboise · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:06:23 AM »

My guess is like the one above - your body mass is on the upper end of the bell curve, and has more inertia than a small person. Hence, you absorb more of the energy into your muscle mass, rather then bending backwards at the waist.

I believe that a rifle would string vertically higher, as the barrel heated, if it was bedded with contact between the stock and the barrel. A free floated barrel should not shooter higher as it heats up.

Old Cane · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:18:11 AM »

Thanks Tom. I thought this rifle was free floated but I really don't know. It is one of the M70 Classics that they made for a short time, a re-issue I think he called it. I was shooting .75" to 1" groups but they were all over the place. It was windy (5-15mph) and I was taking (hoping) that into account. At 125 yards they were all on a 3" target so I think I'm going to be ok for this season. I scream like a little girl all the time anyway.

I do think I'm going to get a smaller cal. with a Monte Carlo stock this spring. Deer is all I do and while I like bigger holes in paper I know a 30/06 is not needed for TN whitetails at 150 yards. That's the longest clear shot I have on my land. Most come within bow distance.

Mikey · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:36:58 AM »

Old Cane: first of all I would like to say that even with an 06, you are gonna take a beating off the bench. Period. It seems that no matter whatcha shoot, shooting it from the bench is always a pain, or gives you one. It also sounds like the stock is a poor fit for you. Since this is not your rifle I might suggest one of those slip on recoil pads to give you a bit of extra length as well as some padding for the recoil. I do not recall the M70 Classic wearing a recoil pad, so an 'add-on' might be an inexpensive fix for you and something you can use with other rifles as well. Another also - if you are going to shoot from a bench, as most of us do, make certain your rifle is properly supported so you can get the full length of the recoil pad to your shoulder. When you find just the top or bottom there, all that recoil is going right through that small area of contact and you are in for aspirin city.

As for bullet spread or climb from bbls that are heating up - I also do not recall any of the M70s that came bedded from the factory. Let your bbl cool between shots and see how she groups. Then once you have grouped, practice taking 2 or 3 rapid fire shots and see what the group looks like. If the impact still climbs I would suggest a bedding job for the action and free-floating the bbl from the end of the chamber forward - it works for me and I hope it will work for you. Mikey.

Old Cane · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2003, 05:16:51 AM »

The climbing comes when I shoot 4 in about 15-20 seconds, load 4 more and shoot, load 4 more and shoot. Like I said the groups are all over the place but each group is tight. Usually a sub 1" with a called flier but all 12 shots are still on a 3" target.

As for adding the recoil pad, the eye relief is so short on the scope I'm struggling to get the full sight picture as it is. Now let me state this problem is not just with this rifle. I had a Savage in 30/06 that was the same way as to the beating part. Had a Win. 73 (Uberti) in 45 Colt. Heavy gun. Didin't hurt me but let me know what was going on. And this was with pistol ammo! I think it's maybe just a sensitivity problem. I'm hoping someone will agree so I can tell my wife that I really am sensitive after all.

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2003, 11:34:07 AM »

Old Cane,

Before you do anything about the rifle go se a Dr. and have your shoulder checked. If you ever hurt your shoulder in the past I'm thinking you may have either calcium build up or arthritis in your shoulder. If your shoulder checks out ok then your problem is most likely the stock doesn't fit you. Big people need to have a proper fitting stock even more than smaller people. Make sure you have a top line recoil pad on your rifle, a Decelerator or Kick-Eez are about the best. Also recoil pads get old and stiff and need to be replaced after a number of years. As for making sure the stock fits you, take my word for this. I am 6'7", 263 pounds. No factory stock fits me. Lawdog

savageT · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2003, 12:20:26 PM »

Old Cane,
I think as long as you don't own this 30-06, for this season, get a good PAST shoulder pad or at the very least a slip on stock recoil pad like Pachmeyer offers. Then you might look into purchasing a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55mm or perhaps one of the newer sport guns (Tikka, Ruger??) in that caliber. You should be able to shoot the 6.5mm all day at the range with 140 grain soft-pointed bullet w/o getting beat up. This is an excellent caliber for deer and bear and with scope it is noted for long range knockdown. It's a great caliber to consider if the shoulder becomes a "sore" subject!

Jim

redial · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:41:39 PM »

Cane, by your descriptions of your position and the eye-relief deal, I gotta believe what Lawdog says - the stock's too short! It's getting a running start at your shoulder, I'll betcha.

In fact, I think MOST stocks are too short but that's just me. I'm a stock crawler with a chicken neck. Position shooter, to boot.

FWIW, I sold recently an M1A (off this board!) to a gent who's over 7 feet tall. I asked him how he might get around such matters and he told me he routinely orders stocks from H&S (if I remember right) that are 3 or 4 inches longer in length of pull! WOW!

HTH

Redial

Old Cane · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2003, 04:08:16 AM »

Thanks guys but what mean about the eye relief is that the scope is so far forward I have to climb the stock to get the full site picture. It seems to give me the full picture at about an inch and a half away. The stock seems much longer than what I am used to. The scope is as far back as it will come. I can deal with this for now. Standing it's not as bad as leaning over and having it sit toward the top of my shoulder.

No there is nothing wrong with my shoulder physically. I have had this purple shoulder thing since I was a very small child. Usually from shotguns and quick, not so correct mounts. Actually this time I didn't get the discoloration I usually do. Just a bit sore. But shooting should be fun so when I buy I guess I'm looking for caliber recommendations. I usually shoot pistols fur fun and yes I do handload (and shoot lots of rounds) but probably won't with my next rifle. I'll just sight it in and hunt with it every year. I want something very common so if i do travel and something happens to my ammo I can pick up the same brand/weigth at the local Wal-Mart. What do you guys think about recoil on the following compared to the 30-06:

.243
.25-06
.270
.308

gunnut69 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2003, 04:40:28 AM »

OldCane-
The problem is stock fit. Regardless of your physic if a rifle doesn't fit it can be painful. Factory stocks are model on the 'average man' dimensions and no one is average. The scope is too far farward and as far back as is possible, then you may need extension rings and reversable bases. The butt stock sticking in the air with only a bit on your shoulder would make nearly any rifle hurt. Get the rifle fitted better and if your recoil sensitive Pachmeyer makes a pad, I believe they call it a 'triple magnum' design. They are 1 1/2 inches think and feature a sponge rubber insert. These pads and a correctly fitted stock will allow you to use nearly any medium caliber you wish with minimal discomfort. If you case is extreme you may well need a custom stock fitted to your body... Properly set up nearly anyone can handle well a rifle in a caliber quite capable of taking deer...without undue pain.. By the way the entire butt must be on the shoulder. If you can not get it there it's gonna hurt... Proper form when shooting is nearly everything.. A wise man once said only the good practice counts. Only thing is-I can't remember who said it!! Good luck.

Old Cane · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2003, 07:42:23 AM »

GN69, good point. I always heard "only perfect practice makes perfect". I remember who told me but have no idea where he got it from. BUt it all means the same thing. I have always thought these guns didn't fit, shot them anyway and wondered why little bitty guys shoot 300 mags and I'm steering shy of 22 mags :lol: .

Thanks all, for your tips. I know you're all right on this. I think I just need a Monte Carlo stock. They always seem to hit me just right. I'm also thinking 25/06 or 308. I may one day soon get a chance to try for elk. I think the 308 could be a one gun does it all gun. But where's the fun in that? Now it comes down to Sako, Tikka, and Weatherby. I've always been fond of WB and Sako but have shot neither. I have friends that have owned both in the past an they recommend them highly. The Tikka looks like a good buy with similar quality. Does the Rem 700 BDL still have that type of stock? A friend has one of those for sale.......in 30-06!

Let me know your thoughts on caliber and rifles.

Muddyboots · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2003, 11:20:36 AM »

Old Cane,
I'm 6'5" and svelt 260 (HA!) and I grew up shooting slug guns off bench. You learn proper bench position real fast with a 12 ga pump slug gun. I shoot 300 WM, 7 RM, 06 etc. off bench without the problems you are encountering and I agree with most posts to a degree on stock fit but I also think your bench technique is a major contributor to your problem. If you are not firmly (and I mean firmly holding the stock into your shoulder) a firearm off the bench, it will come back and kick the snot out of you since it is not against your shoulder to start with. As with one poster, it is getting a running start at ya. The height of your front bag or rest versus the rear bag is critical in establishing correct sight plane with rifle. Couple that with poor fitting eye relief, you have the makings of having the crap knocked out of you no matter what the rifle caliber. Your over all posture is critical on the bench. I would try shooting off cross sticks just to see if you run into same problem. You shouldn't be getting this type of abuse from going to range. You mentioned your size and that can play significant part in whether a straight stock can fit at all. If you are large necked person, you may need a Monte Carlo type stock or even something like a Weatherby Vanguard style stock. We are all different builds and sometimes the "one size fits all" atitude but gunmakers doesn't cut with us normal size folks. I wouldn't give up on this, a 06 isn't that bad of recoil to cause this on you. Flinching maybe but not getting all bruised up. I would also try a Sims recoil pad to try to help you reduce felt recoil and if it continued I would look into buying the heaviest rifle you can to help tame it down as well. I don't like magna porting due to increased noise so adding weight to rifle is easy way out. Look at any one of the heavy barrel rifles such as Remington Sendero, Savage etc. Lastly, shoot 150 gr bullets out of the 06 and it cuts recoil way down and kill and ruminant on this planet. Hang in there.
Muddyboots

leverfan · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2003, 08:31:18 PM »

Old Cane-

For me, medium and big game rifles start at 6.5mm/.264" and go up. The 6.5x55mm and the 260 Remington are two of the easiest recoiling, and they're also the easiest to find factory ammo for. My local WalMart stocks both. These two rounds are ballistic twins, and there's no logical reason to pick one over the other, other than finding a particular gun that fits you. If you reload, commonly available bullet weights start around 80 grains and go up to 160. The 100 grain Nosler Partition is a good deer bullet for a 26 caliber. In my tests, these bullets penetrated an average of 19.5" of saturated newspaper at 200 yards, with an average retained weight of 72.23 grains. Average expanded diameter was .536". All were fired from a 24" long 260 Remington barrel, so velocity at the muzzle was just a hair over 3300 fps. I didn't chrony the impact velocities, but the books claim it should have been around 2700 fps. That's not bad for a light-kicking deer rifle, and you can move up to heavier bullets for heavier game, which will make the kick feel more like a 308 Winchester. Stay away from 140 grain Nosler Partitions in the smaller-cased 6.5mm rounds, as I've found that they don't expand well at 200 yards when fired from anything less than a 6.5-06. Uneven expansion causes the bullets to tumble, losing the rear core and giving relatively shallow penetration. Since this happened repeatedly in testing, I've opted not to try it on any animals. All the other bullets that I've used worked just fine, both in tests, and a few critters that I've had the opportunity to harvest with 6.5mm bullets.

If my math is right on a table that I drew up, an 8 lb. rifle/scope combo chambered for the 260 Remington, firing a 120 grain bullet, will have 13.3 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. To have the same sectional density and penetration potential, a 30-06 would have to fire a 165 grain bullet, giving 22.94 ft. lbs. of recoil from the same weight rifle. Regardless of stock design, your shoulder will notice the difference. If you go after elk with your 260 with a 140 grain Speer grand-slam, recoil energy will still only be about 14.1 ft. lbs. Rifles in the 26 and 27 calibers are a little small for elk, IMHO, but a lot of them fall to these calibers every year (along with plenty of moose, especially in northern europe).

You might also lean towards using a heavier rifle, since you sound like a sturdy fellow, and then your rifle's inertia can help you out.

stork · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2003, 05:43:17 AM »

I am 14 and only 115 pounds and 5 10 and my 30-06 kicks very hard too but the reciol sets me back about 8 inches when i shoot from a bench. I also use a Past reciol pad that helps alot.

I say save your pennies and when you go buy a new gun get one that fits you right and if can not find one that feels right go get a custom stock and then go buy a good scope that has good eye relief.

As far as caliber goes you should buy a 25-06 or 270 because their longer action will add a few ounces, and every little bit of weight in your case will help. The 270 is probably the better of the two in my opinion.

crow_feather · « **Reply #18 on:** November 09, 2003, 05:30:58 AM »

Stork,

If you hand load, you can start with the Lee Loader that costs about 20 bucks, you will find that you can taylor your loads for recoil.

I shoot a .338 Win Mag for Elk, but when I want to use it for other game, I load it down to .358 Winchester velocities.

A 30-06 can shoot as light as a 7mm-08 if you load it right.

my 2 pennies

C F

stork · « **Reply #19 on:** November 09, 2003, 05:38:50 AM »

I plan on hand loading somewhere around chirstmas. I don't have the money to buy everything my self so i hope i can get a set of dies or some powder or some bullets for chirstmas or my birthday which is december 23. Money would be nice too. :-)

Old Cane · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2003, 03:58:25 AM »

Stork, I have some brass I can send you. I don't think I have any dies but I will look around in my stuff.