Author Topic: Contender accuracy questions. (Read 2301 times)

Lager · « **on:** January 27, 2010, 03:07:32 PM »

Is there a difference on how the pistol is rested ?Ive noticed that since I mounted a bipod instead of useing sand bags? My accuracy has gone to crap!
I was always under the impression that the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil can effect the bullet path.
Right or wrong , and that will give me all the answers that i need.

At least, I think it does.
Please excuse my attitude, Im just frustrated and dont know where to direct it to.
Can you help me?

Slowpoke Slim · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2010, 03:26:11 PM »

Often times changing where you rest the forend/barrel on a Contender will change it's accuracy. The best place to "rest" a forend is directly in front of the frame, under the rear forend screw. Your bipod is putting pressure too far forward on the forend and barrel. You can try a "hanger bar" setup on your forend and remount the bipod on the forend again. This may help it enough, or it may be that you will have to lose the bipod all together.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2010, 12:48:40 AM »

Slim +1

shot1 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2010, 02:09:36 AM »

Yes were you rest the forearm will effect your point of impact. Also how you grip, light or heavy pressure or the change of position of your grip will effect POI.

sbhg · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:54:30 AM »

I have Pacmayer(?) grips on my Contender. And yes a bipod will turn your groups to crap.
I have a .223 Super14 that shoots 5 rds. into 3/4" or a lil better off of a sandbag, w/ a bipod it'll turn into 1"+. You'll just have to carry that bag w/ your hunting gear.
BTW I use one of those small leather front rifle rest bags filled w/ sand. Or a backpack works good to, practice shooting off of it and your set.

Lager · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2010, 02:44:31 PM »

So, what your telling me is this. Recoil/movement does effect POI,meaning the weapon is starting to move before the bullet escapes from the barrel.
The slower the bullet speed,the heavier the bullet weight will cause more deflection then a faster/lighter bullet,meaning less time in the barrel.
That would make sense with what happened this weekend.
Im shooting a 158 grain @1200 fps like normal, but gripped the Bipod equipped pistol completely differently this range trip.
I was actually holding the left leg of the bipod with my left hand instead of letting it rest naturally on the table. So one of the keys to accuracy when target shooting with a handgun, is consistency.The hold,grip pressure,grip angle and your choice of front rest and position all has to be the same to expect to see any difference in my hand loads.The use of a bipod/addition of a big swinging weight, that was added to the barrel will amplify any of the inconsistencies listed above.
Feel free to correct any of the above ideas or observations.

Slowpoke Slim · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:32:03 PM »

Yes the gun moves before the bullet leaves the barrel. When you think about it, the gun starts to move the instant that the bullet starts to move. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You can't get around the laws of physics. Heavier bullets have more mass, and cause the gun to move more in the opposite direction (within reason of all other things being fairly equal that is).

I don't use bipods for several different reasons, only one of which is the very likely chance that it will throw off the accuracy of the gun. It can change the pressure point on the forend, or can change the "harmonics" of the barrel, as well as change the way the gun comes back during recoil. The sooner you can adopt a "regular" ie consistent method of hold, the sooner you'll be able to shrink your groups. Are you primarily shooting at a range, from a bench, or are you primarily trying to dial in a hunting load for use in the field?

I have used blocks of wood, sandbags, front rest only, and front rest and rear bags while at the range. While in the field, I have used a walking stick, a backpack, a hat, a tree branch, or my knee as a rest. Sometimes you have to improvise in the field. Whatever kind of "rest" I'm using, I try to make contact with the gun as far back towards the frame as I can.

shot1 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2010, 03:25:25 AM »

Same thoughts as Slowpoke Slim. But I have found that for hunting in situations outside of my deer stands that have shooting rails on them that I have sandbags laid on. I use a camera tripod that I got from Wal-mart and I tied a front shooting rest bag onto the top of it. It is pretty light and you can adjust it pretty quickly. I usually sit down with the tripod between my legs and rest the forearm of my Contender on the bag and push the contender forward as far as I can until the trigger guard touches the bag. I then rest my arms on my drawn up knees. This makes a very solid shooting position.

Steve P · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2010, 08:35:10 AM »

I have several different bi-pods that fit my contenders and XP-100s. When I am hunting, I take off my butt pack and use it for a rest. The bi-pods are nice for cleaning the barrel or wiping the gun down in camp. They also work well if you are using a scope for a spotting scope. However, they are not worth a hoot on a long shot. I take them off the gun before I even leave camp. Even my Ruger Charger (10/22 pistol) jumps around on it's bi-pod and makes accuracy suck. It's a .22LR.

Steve

mlk3454 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2010, 10:12:39 AM »

This is a bit off topic but would using a monopod that has a rubber piece that can go over the top of the barrel to have a more secure hold be more of a benefit or hurt for accuracy?

Tommyt · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2010, 02:01:19 PM »

When you changed to the bi-pod how do you and how did you
Grip it
Everyone says and I agree
the grip says alot as to how good your groups will be
I've had your attitude, and been frustrated
But it will work out
Tommyt

Lager · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2010, 12:25:40 PM »

Wow, some really great reponses. You all have been very helpful.
To answer Slims question, Im only a target shooter,punch holes in paper at my local range that has shooting benches.
While Im not new to shooting handguns, this is the first time Im actually trying to hit a small dot way downrange using an accurate firearm.
As an Ex IPSC shooter, our idea of accuracy was the 10 spot as fast as you can , at a short distance.
Think Im going to ditch the bipod, go back to my sand bag rest and concentrate on a consistent hold and arm position. My many thanks to everyone that took the time to give their advise.
Hey TonmmyT, good to hear from you again. Frustration, you have no idea. Cant tell you the hours Ive spent on the reloading bench,loading 5 rounds at a time. All different heads,powders,OAL and different crimps. Attempting to find the best round,just to see your target look like I hit it with a shotgun loaded with buck shot.
Now, I have to start all over again. Oh well, its all for fun.

tripper · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2010, 11:06:39 AM »

Lager, sure am glad you got so frustrated.

as you saved me the frustration. I was about to put bipods on my TC but now will avoid that thought and buy more bullets powder or what ever.

Lager · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2010, 12:36:50 PM »

Tripper, Glad I could help.
Story of my life, I once thought selling Rainbow vacuum cleaners was my path to fame and fortune.
That didnt work out so well either.

blhof · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2010, 02:09:46 PM »

My brother thought Rainbow vacs were his too...he later went into photography and gets to shoot the testing of big weapons for the USAF. I stick with sandbags for the range, except when preparing for hunting with a gun, then I use a monopod or improvised rest to simulate field conditions.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2010, 03:55:51 PM »

dunno about the handgun versions, but i had 2 contenders in .204 ruger that shot 0.300" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with my reloads. that's ridiculous with a factory rifle with a $100 scope and me behind the trigger!

Win 1917 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2010, 01:58:09 AM »

Looks like I'm the only one here that actually likes using a bipod and I get excellent accuracy with mine on an Encore. I'm not going to try and make the argument that bipods are better than bags but maybe with a few tweeks you can get the bp to shoot as good as bags.

One thing you mentioned was holding on to the bp leg while shooting. That's a no good boss. A tip I learned from Tony Gettel (Tony's forends and grips) is to use a small sand bag under the grip. With your left hand you can squeeze the bag to adjust your elevation. When the cross hairs are centered then place your shooting hand onto the gun. It's very important (goes for bags too) that the gun is on target without you touching it. If it isn't and you have to push it in to position. The first the gun is going to want to do when you pull the trigger is go back to that spot.

Another small thing is to put a piece of moleskin between the forend and the bipod when you mount it. Some bp's come with a piece padding already attached.

The others mentioned forend pressure and I'm sure that's part of the equation too. You need a good solid free floated forend. I personally like pillar bedded forends because it really makes for a good solid platform for the bp to mount to. A hanger bar would probably work too.

Like I said I don't think bipods are better than bags but they are pretty darn handy. If you can get your gun to shoot well with them then you can use them in the field when you want and not be limited to only using bags. When you’re out hunting there’s no drawback to having multiple shooting options. I don’t want to sound like a pitchman for Tony but if you want to get a bipod set up working well give him a call. He’s a wealth of information.

Lager · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2010, 02:31:47 PM »

Win 1917, many Thanks for your reply. After reading your post, think I am going to experiment with the bipod
Then compare it to the plain sand bag rested version.
Now that I have learned that the bullet is still in the barrel when recoil occurs im going to be a lot more careful on how I support the barrel plus my hand hold/grip position.
Good tip about the grip sand bag squeezing procedure before you lay your hand on it. Im guilty there.
Your idea of the free floating for end, is interesting. Im already useing a hanger bar, you mentioned that would work as well.
The bi pod is attached directly to the grip screw for my rubber/pach forend,your idea of the moleskin is to enable the bipod to shift or move during recoil insulating the weight of the bipod from effecting the barrel?
Maybe Im over thinking all this?

Win 1917 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2010, 03:07:44 AM »

Quote

your idea of the moleskin is to enable the bipod to shift or move during recoil insulating the weight of the bipod from effecting the barrel?

I don't know what the real answer is to that question other than to say I seem to get better accuracy with a small pad in between. It was advice given to me and I tried it both ways. Padded seemed to be a little better. Plus it gives a little protection to a nice forend.

Here's a target I shot yesterday off a bipod at 100yds. I botched the 5th shot pretty bad with this group but still 4 shots sub .5 moa shows the accuracy potential is there.

Lager · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2010, 02:24:50 PM »

Win 1917, Im impressed ! Obviously you know what you are talking about. My many thanks for your suggestions, now I have something to work towards.
You know, its one thing to post up a suggestion here on a forum. Its another to give advise and then download a target to back it all up.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2010, 02:37:19 AM »

My take on "accuracy" is that exactly what you do and how you do it isn't nearly as important as doing it in a manner that you can duplicate(exactly) time after time. For example, I, like many others use a sand bag on my bench and push the Contender forward as far as it will go until the trigger guard is slam up against the bag. This not only seems to be a good location for the bag to be, but it is also easily repeatable. I don't have to check to see if I've put the gun in the exact right location...it just goes there and is ready to shoot.
BTW I'm not a great user of bi-pods, but I've witnessed some outstanding(1/2" - 5/8" @ 100yd type stuff) groups shot with their use. My son used to use one religously on his 14" 7-30 Waters and his groups would be right there with the best dad could produce. He attached his directly to the barrel with one of those god-awful, butt-ugly clamps that Harris made.

Walt

Lager · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2010, 01:39:34 PM »

Hey Walt, the reason Im trying to use a bipod is because it's more stable then useing just bags. Now that Ive gotten older I seem to have a slight hand twitch-left to right.
I can control the up/down motion using bags, but never could stabilize the horizontal until I used the bipod.
Will keep trying, now that I know what I have been doing wrong.
I knew I asked the right forum, folks here are the best.

lynneil · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2010, 12:25:14 AM »

For shooting on a bench, what do most of you use to support the grip end? Do you rest the grip directly on the bench or use a sand bag under the grip also?

Win 1917 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 09, 2010, 03:10:52 AM »

You don't want the grip sitting directly on the bench that'll kill your accuracy. A small sand bag is all you need. This is a picture of my set-up. The bag isn't the greatest but it works and the size is right. I regularly shoot at a number of different ranges and the targets aren't all the same height relative to the bench so I let a little media out of the bag so I could manipulate it a little more than when it was packed full.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2010, 04:09:55 AM »

Unfortunately I still haven't learned to do pictures, but I'm workin' on it...at least I've got the camera. Anyway, I get my best results with the grip touching nothing but my hands. The rear bag is under both my wrists and my hands holding the grip in normal fashion, but the butt is suspended in mid air.
Walt
BTW Lager, I'm with you on those "old" shakes & stuff.