Loading down the 45-70 ??

[brudford]

There is a Uberti High wall 1885 in 45-70 here at a local shop . It is new,has been on the shelf for about two years . The owner wants it sold and will sell for 740.00 $ can't pass on this deal . I really wanted a 38-55,less lead and less recoil . Do you think I could load a 300 gr 45-70 bullet with 40-50 grs of Goex ff
and use natural cotton as a filler ? I'am not crazy about fillers , however I want less recoil and a cost savings .  Thanks

[boommer]

You could use corn meal as a filler. Black powder and smokeless lube don,t mix so you will have to find bullets natural lube on them no petroleum base lube or you char that barrel up.I just say this because one day at the range I guy I just met that day was shooting his new Shiloh 45-70 and I was smoking with a high wall comes down to me and says I can't get my rifle hit on the cardboard let alone the target bullets are going everywhere and chambering hard,so I went a took a look seen his shells they look normal (with 300gr)bullets then look at the gun (nice high $ Shiloh) looked in the chamber and down the bore HOLY CRAP the bore charded and caked bullets must of been coming out 43cal!! He must of used 1/2 gallon windsheild washer solvent, wore arm and brushes out for an hour. Culprit smokeless lube! He reloaded for 20 years never black (learning curve) where good friends now and I NEVER LET LET HIM LIVE IT DOWN !!! 
Trail boss powder is a good mouse fart powder for the 45-70 works well for loads in the 1300fps range.
4759sr or 3031 for a little stiffer load.

[Trapper-Jack]

Do an internet search for "45-55-405".  That is what the military loaded their 45-70 rounds for their carbines to reduce the recoil.  They used 55 grains of black powder and took up the remainder of the space to the base of the bullet wih card wads.  If loading black just remember - DO NOT LEAVE AN AIR SPACE BETWEEN THE POWDER AND BULLET.  I've never used a filler like cream of wheat or corn meal, but I have used card wads without any ill effect.  They also used reduced loads as practice loads and gallery loads.

[brudford]

 Nim, Why no medical grade 100 % cotton as a filler ? I have read on other forums such as BPCR.Net
 ASSRA, and the Cas City forums about using loose cotton as a filler ? What would be the difference
between Puf-Lon and Dacron that many are using now for fillers ? I did an experiment and tried to
see how quickly the cotton would burn. It did burn, however it first turned into a little charcoal ball . If
there is any doubt at all I can just as easily use cream of wheat for safetys sake ! I could see where the charcoal ball could act as an obstruction in the barrel . What are your thoughts ? Could the cream of wheat just as easily goob into a gooey ball and obstruct the barrel ? Thanks

[StrawHat]

I can not answer the question on fillers.

I can remember that at one time a reduced capacity cartridge case was made for the 45-70.  For just this kind of thing.  The internal capacity was less so no filler was needed.  I can not remember who offered them but perhaps the guys at BPCR.net would be able to help.

Another option is to load one of the old gallery load, 45-5-145, which is a 45 caliber round ball seated down on 5 grains of black powder.  

[Dances with Geoducks]

I shoot compressed black powder loads with 400 & 500 grain boolits out of a carbine.

They dont kick.

Reloader 7 is mild with 300 and 350 gr jacketed.

[longcaribiner]

The old Ideal Catelogues had instructions for loading 457 round balls for indoor armory practice.  I have several 45-70 molds from 550 grains down to a 215 grain wad cutter. (just slightly heavie than the 190 grain collar button bullets. )    Squib loads with any powder in a 45-70 are always a problem.  I use a filler such as Cream of Wheat.   Some fellows have experimented with ways to insert tubes/sleeves into the 45-70 case so that it holds less powder. In addition, some early target cartridges had separate bases from the body of the case.   They screwed together to form the complete case.   In such instances a heavier/thicker case wall reduced the powder volume of the case.  Another possibility is to switch to a slower burning powder such as 1 fg.     

[DanChamberlain]

Nim, Why no medical grade 100 % cotton as a filler ? I have read on other forums such as BPCR.Net
 ASSRA, and the Cas City forums about using loose cotton as a filler ? What would be the difference
between Puf-Lon and Dacron that many are using now for fillers ? I did an experiment and tried to
see how quickly the cotton would burn. It did burn, however it first turned into a little charcoal ball . If
there is any doubt at all I can just as easily use cream of wheat for safetys sake ! I could see where the charcoal ball could act as an obstruction in the barrel . What are your thoughts ? Could the cream of wheat just as easily goob into a gooey ball and obstruct the barrel ? Thanks

Black powder is an "explosive" while smokeless powder is a flammable.  Smokeless ammo relies on a very rapid pressure buildup to propel the bullet down bore.  Black powder goes "BOOM"

Any filler - at least the prevailing wisdom states - should have a density similar to the powder charge and completely fill the case with some slight compression.  If you are using a filler that is less dense and allows for the case to become a piston, you are generating pressures that may not be safe, or at least can damage your firearm.

The powder burns from the bottom.  As it burns, it forces the unburned powder forward like the piston of an engine.  Loose cotton or any other filler that does not take up the unused space properly, will create unknown pressures.  If your cotton filler is packed in densely, there may not be a problem.  If it is loose, there will be a theoretical problem.

My face and guns want there to be no problems.  I don't use any fillers. 

Dan