Author Topic: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?  (Read 3013 times)

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Offline scootrd

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Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« on: January 21, 2010, 06:24:18 PM »
I was asked the other day what would be a decent caliber for a combination deer/Varmint Rifle,
Since I don't hunt Varmints , only deer I said I really don't know, but would ask on this forum
for insight .

Since then I did some reading and came across an article with the following statement:

"Good cartridges for a combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle include the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .243 WSSM, .240 Weatherby Mag., .250 Savage, .25 WSSM, .257 Roberts, and .25-06. These are flat shooting numbers capable of taking most medium size big game animals with a single well placed bullet, and also of reaching out for varmints at long range. The .243, 6mm Rem., .250-3000 and .257 Roberts are also seen as good choices for hunters who are sensitive to the blast and recoil of larger caliber rifles. - chuck Hawks writer

Those that hunt with a combination rifle for both Deer / Varmints  please share your opinions and insights.
is the above paragraph from the writer accurate?
From those cartridges listed above in your opinions does one stand out above the others ?
which would perform better filling a dual role in your experience?
What are the pro/cons of each cartridge mentioned? barrel life ? accuracy? recoil? ammo costs? etc..

Any information that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.



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Offline no guns here

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 09:33:25 PM »
for the most part I think your quote is spot on...  there are some other cartridges to do both but without trying to discuss the merits of all of them I would say your buddy needs to evaluate his use a little more.
Will the rifle be used PRIMARILY as a deer/antelope rifle or PRIMARILY as a varmint rifle?  What type of varmints?  How much shooting?  If it's a deer rifle with the occasional varmint thrown in, that's one thing.  If it a Prairie Dog rifle that will occasionaly take a deer or antelope then that's another thing.  To sort of hit a one size fits all rifle for this guy, my gut would say go with a .257 of some kind and be done with it.  Truthfully a .243/6mm would work too.  LOTS of rounds out there that will fill the role, just depends on what end of the spectrum will see the most shooting, deer or varmints?


Could buy a switch barrel job like a T/C or AR and switch cartridges as needed.  That's what I would do...

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Offline JPShelton

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 10:41:05 PM »
I'm putting my Nomex on while I type......

I shoot a Savage Model 10 Sierra in .243 Winchester.  I like the round because it is commonly available, reloading components are equally common, it is reasonably economical to shoot, and is simply a joy to play with at the range because recoil is virtually nill.  I also like it because it has all of the power and penetration that I am ever likely to need.  There isn't anything I WOULD shoot with a .25-'06 that I wouldn't shoot with a .243.  I simply don't think that the added .013" of bullet diameter and potential to hurl 15 more grains of weight makes the quarter-bores that much more superior to 6mms on game. 

The Sierra is more than precise enough for game shooting, being sub M.0.A. for 5 consecutive shots with a variety of ammo.  It ain't no varmint rifle, though.

There are plenty of "dual purpose" rounds.  One thing I discovered in shooting prairie dogs and such is that they don't really care whether you vaporized them with a .17 Remington or a .30-'06 or anything in between.  The issue really isn't "what makes a good dual purpose round."

The issue is where are all the real "dual purpose" rifles.  For game from pronghorns up, my rifle will be carried a lot in the field but shot little.  Hopefully, it'll only have ONE round go through it on a given hunt.  My varmint rifle, on the other hand, will be carried little but shot a lot.  It can be designed to deliver nth degree accuracy over long shot strings, round after round after round after round, without making concessions for portability, dynamic handling, and such.

That said, if I were to try to get one rifle to really "do it all,"  I'd lean toward something like slapping a larger diameter .260 Remington barrel on my Savage 10 Sierra, keeping the barrel length down to 20 inches with the barrel generously fluted to save weight and aid in cooling.  As much as I loved the .250 Savage when I shot one years back, and as much as I like the .243 that I shoot now, my brain tells me that the .260 Remington is what either one of them should have been from the beginning.  That is a REAL "mice to moose" round, in my view -particularly if you handload for it.

The trick would be pairing that round with a real "mice to moose" rifle and I think that is ultimately a pretty tall order.

-JP

Offline Catfish

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 12:36:36 AM »
As for preformance I think the .25-06 has a slight edge over the .243, but .243 ammo is more available on the market which is a consideration if you don`t reload. If you are already hunting deer now and have a good accurate deer rifle it will work on varmints, no matter what cal. it is.

Offline anweis

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 01:36:46 AM »

"Good cartridges for a combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle include the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .243 WSSM, .240 Weatherby Mag., .250 Savage, .25 WSSM, .257 Roberts, and .25-06. These are flat shooting numbers capable of taking most medium size big game animals with a single well placed bullet, and also of reaching out for varmints at long range. The .243, 6mm Rem., .250-3000 and .257 Roberts are also seen as good choices for hunters who are sensitive to the blast and recoil of larger caliber rifles. - chuck Hawks writer



Leave out any of the cartridges with "magnum": in their name and you are good to go. Magnums are not needed because they cost more, wear faster, and offer minimal ballistics advantages. "Long range, flat shooting" is not a good excuse for "oh, i don't know how to aim and shoot at that distance". Besides, i stand firm in my belief that hunters don't shoot past 200-300 yards. Snipers do.
6mm Remington is my do everything rifle (everything except bison, moose, elk, and bears, which i don't usually hunt). I just use different bullets for different game. With the 100 grain round nose bullets i would not be shy of shooting elk.
However, all of these on the list are intense and hot calibers. If one wants to take more than 3 shots, they would do better with a heavy barell.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 04:15:50 AM »
I'd have to agree, the 25/06 would work I think.  I have a .270, but I've not used it for varmints...s'pose I could.  I also have a 243 that is resrticted to game under 150lbs...could use that as well.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 04:33:40 AM »
I was asked the other day what would be a decent caliber for a combination deer/Varmint Rifle,

"Good cartridges for a combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle include the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .243 WSSM, .240 Weatherby Mag., .250 Savage, .25 WSSM, .257 Roberts, and .25-06. These are flat shooting numbers capable of taking most medium size big game animals with a single well placed bullet, and also of reaching out for varmints at long range. The .243, 6mm Rem., .250-3000 and .257 Roberts are also seen as good choices for hunters who are sensitive to the blast and recoil of larger caliber rifles. - chuck Hawks writer


It is hard to disagree with the above.  Many people share my opinion that the .25-06 is perhaps the best dual-purpose cartridge extant, especially for the person that doesn’t handload.  

A .243/6mm is the minimum for big game in many states, including my state of Colorado.  That pretty much eliminates smaller calibers from the discussion.

On the upper end, and speaking in generalities, the weight of the varmint bullets available for a given caliber increases as the caliber goes up,  My experience is that even varmint bullets can ricochet if heavy enough and/or slow enough – not a desirable situation in some area where I hunt varmints.  In addition, the heavier bullets require more powder, increasing recoil and blast, and tend to cost more.  The possibility of ricochets, combined with the additional recoil and powder and bullet cost, make larger calibers less desirable for varminting.  (That said, I’m happy to take target practice on the occasional varmint with my elk rilfes and loads, just have to be careful about what’s in the background.)

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From those cartridges listed above in your opinions does one stand out above the others ?
which would perform better filling a dual role in your experience?

First, let’s eliminate a few:  6mm RM, .243 WSSM, .240 Weatherby Mag, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts and .25 WSSM.  All gone.

That leaves the .243 Win, and .25-06.

If you handload your options are a bit wider.  My favorite rifle is my .257 Roberts, a long-action Ruger with a 22” barrel.  I ruun 75g V-MAX at 3600fps and have taken several coyotes at just under 500 yards.  With 100g TTSX running over 3200fps it is devastating on antelope and with 120g A-Frames at 2948fps I wouldn’t hesitate on elk.  A .260 Rem is another good choice for handloaders.

Quote
What are the pro/cons of each cartridge mentioned? barrel life ? accuracy? recoil? ammo costs? etc..



Factory ammo options are best for the .243 Win and .25-06.  In my estimation the .25-06 is a better choice for deer and would get my vote as the overall winner.  Last year I saw a 6x6 bull elk, a cow elk and a 4x4 mulie buck that had been taken with a .25-06 and 117g bullets – all by a 12-year-old girl.  At the same time a .25-06 makes an awesome cartridge for low-volume varminting (chucks, coyotes, the occasional prairie dog, etc.).



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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 04:35:48 AM »
I use a 25-06 for deer and groundhogs
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 05:08:49 AM »

Leave out any of the cartridges with "magnum": in their name and you are good to go. Magnums are not needed because they cost more, wear faster, and offer minimal ballistics advantages.

Actually, the .25 WSSM and .257 Weatherby Magnum make excellent choices for low volume varminting/deer rifles.  Emphasis on “low volume” – if higher volume is required a centerfire .22 is called for.  Granted, the .25WSSM, and less so the .257 Weatherby, have issues such as ammo cost and availability, but those are of no more concern to the handloader than is the pitiful variety of factory ammo for the .257 Roberts.  As a handloader, my .257 Roberts is easily my favorite rifle and is used to hunt prairie dogs to deer and elk. While I don’t care for the WSSM in any caliber, I would not hesitate to use a .257 Weatherby in place of the Roberts.

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"Long range, flat shooting" is not a good excuse for "oh, i don't know how to aim and shoot at that distance".

True, but “flat shooting” often translates to less wind drift as well.  Adjusting for drop and holding on point is easy, adjusting for wind is much more difficult.

You make the argument below that “hunters don't shoot past 200-300 yards”, which is nonsense to a lot of varminters.  If you’re not willing to shoot further in a prairie dog town you can run out of targets fast.  I’ve taken between 75 and 77 coyotes and many of them have been between 300 and 500 yards.

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Besides, i stand firm in my belief that hunters don't shoot past 200-300 yards. Snipers do.

That may be your belief, but as you say below, you don’t do much elk hunting and I’m willing to bet you’re not hunting mule deer in open sage, either.  I’d also guess you’re not doing much antelope hunting, either, especially on public lands that see a lot of pressure.   While “getting closer” is nice when you can do it, there are many reasons totally unrelated to the hunter’s skill that can prevent a hunter from doing so. 

My most difficult hunt to date involved a herd of elk we spotted at 600 yards about 11:30 AM.  We got as close as we could, about 450 yards, fairly quickly.  “Getting closer” required sitting through rain and snow storms and then crawling the last hundred yards head first on my back, through sage and cactus.  I was finally able to take a 350 yard shot just before the end of legal shooting hours some six hours after we first spotted the elk.  These days I am prepared to take shots out to 600 yards, depending on the rifle in hand, and practice on clay pigeons out to that range.  The last coyote I took was head shot at over 480 yards.

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6mm Remington is my do everything rifle (everything except bison, moose, elk, and bears, which i don't usually hunt). I just use different bullets for different game. With the 100 grain round nose bullets i would not be shy of shooting elk.
However, all of these on the list are intense and hot calibers. If one wants to take more than 3 shots, they would do better with a heavy barell.

Dual purpose cartridges are rarely used for high-volume varminting.  If high-volume varminting is the goal a centerfire .22 is indicated.

By the way, I starred hunting elk in 1982 and have only missed 2 years since then.  During that time I’ve seen more elk wounded with .243 Win (another 6mm) than all other cartridges combined.  My .257 Roberts and 120g A-Frames don’t come out until after my first elk is down and I’m focused on deer.


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Offline JW307

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 05:10:29 AM »
I would forget about the magnums and the more obscure chamberings and go with the 25-06 or the 243.  Either one will fill the bill pretty well from mule deer on down to prairie dogs.  I've personally seen several elk shot with both, so they are plenty for deer and antelope.  Both shoot very flat out to 300+ yds.  The choice will probably come down to whether most of the hunting will be varmint or big game.  There are more varmint style factory rifles available in 243 than 25-06.  The 243 ammo is also a little cheaper/available if reloading is not an option.  If most of the hunting will be big game I would go with the 25-06, but the antelope aren't going to know the difference.

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Offline the jigger

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 05:45:31 AM »
If you are not including prairie dogs when you say "varmints", a combination rifle will get the job done. My choice is the 25/06.
With a 100gr bullet that your particular rifle likes you can do a number on deer and varmints well past 300yds.
That said, IMHO you need a 24" barrel for optimum performance.
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 06:45:19 AM »
Besides, i stand firm in my belief that hunters don't shoot past 200-300 yards. Snipers do.

That is a rediculous statement.

I would think that the 25-06 would be the way to go for what your looking for.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 08:08:25 AM »
What exactly does the 25 wssm offer over the 2506 ?
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 08:43:26 AM »
What exactly does the 25 wssm offer over the 2506 ?

Shorter case and more expensive ammo?  Limited selection of rifles chambered for it?  A cartridge that isn't very popular and never will be?  A much poorer selection of factory loads (which will only get worse with time)?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 08:52:38 AM »
That's what i was thinking , just making sure i did not miss something .
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Offline Val

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 12:28:03 PM »
I have both a 25-06 and a .243 Winchester. Either will do well. What I like about my .243 (tang safety Ruger M77) is that my 100 grain Nosler Partition deer load and my 70 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip varmint load shoot to a POI so close that I do not need to adjust my scope when changing rounds.
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Offline fl.hillbilly

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 02:12:12 PM »
 :) I know I am outnumbered here and i have nothing against the 25-06 , but i want to add my favorite lil cartridge
   the 6.5 x 55  a flat shooter , easy recoil , proven in the field for a long time .That being said  ;) after reading all these posts a 25-06 may soon grace the gun cabinet.  ;D 
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Offline Skunk

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 02:25:51 PM »
but i want to add my favorite lil cartridge the 6.5 x 55  a flat shooter , easy recoil , proven in the field for a long time .

There you go. I'm surprised nobody mentioned it sooner. ;) I'd take my sweet little Swedey any day over a 25-06, but then the Swede is my personal favorite. Works great for deer, antelope, varmints...
Mike

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Offline scootrd

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 06:11:30 PM »
isn't the  .260 is just a new version of the 6.5x55?.
I always seen these compared more to the 7mm-08 (my Whitetail Cartridge) not so much the 25-06 .

That said My wife's dad loved his 6.5x55 (he was a handloader, hunted in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico ).

I've always been under the impression (I readily admit , I'm probably wrong) the 6.5x55 was not very prevalent
in the U.S. (more so in European theaters). and ammo was expensive. Am I out of date and just flat out wrong?  

Would others see a benefit of using a 6.5x55 cartridge as a general purpose Combination -  deer, antelope, and varmint rifle? over the 25-06?
Does the 6.5x55 offer a factory varmint load? (again I admit I know nothing of this cartridge).



The guy who asked the original question can only afford one rifle, and that's why he was looking for a combination type setup that provides the best flexibility that could adequately cover the greatest spectrum from varmints to Deer understanding a combination rifle  would not be ideal for one type of game over the other. Just a good "all rounder".  

I do not know much of either the .260 / 6.5x55 OR 25-06... However if he had asked for a cartridge strictly for whitetails I would have pointed him towards the 7mm-08. I love my 7MM-08 even more so than my 30-06.
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 08:43:31 PM »
Some Swedes will handle "light" 100gr bullets. My Ruger will, but my M96 will not, and my buddy's M38 carbine will not either. They use 129gr for their varmint load, which is also a good antelope/deer weight. So there ya go. The Swede is probably a better antelope to elk round than it is a varmint to deer round. I love the Swede and I'm not a varmint hunter, so this has never been an issue for me.

That said, my vote would go for the 24's and 25's as their weight range is light enough to make a decent varmint load for an occasional day type of varmint shoot, as well as heavy enough to be a decent deer round and, with practice and within limitations, realize they need to be handloaded to be able/afford to shoot enough to be that proficient with whatever the choice becomes.

Shot placement is the key, all else is open to debate and mostly inconsequential.

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Offline wareagleguy

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 03:26:07 AM »
100g partitions is what I deer hunt with in my 6.5x55.  The rifle loves em. Not only the rifle would make a good choice I think the the round I am using could be used as a combination round.
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Offline WyoStillhunter

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 03:54:57 AM »
I don't shoot varmints...just because.  But I get after antelope, deer, and elk every fall.  Last year I took all three with 6.5X55 in a Rem. 700 Classic with Leupold FXII 4X scope.  I consider the 6.5X55 a little on the heavy side for varmints and a little on the light side for elk but it works for both.

For varmints and up to large deer I would choose the  257 Roberts.  I hunted one year with a Ruger Hawkeye taking an antelope and two whitetails with it.  Loved the cartridge, didn't like the Ruger.  The Ruger is gone but I kept all my 257 loading supplies and dies.  I would love to get an older model Remington 700 Mountain Rifle with the long action and have it rebarreled for the Roberts.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 04:26:16 AM »
...

For varmints and up to large deer I would choose the  257 Roberts.  I hunted one year with a Ruger Hawkeye taking an antelope and two whitetails with it.  Loved the cartridge, didn't like the Ruger.  The Ruger is gone but I kept all my 257 loading supplies and dies.  I would love to get an older model Remington 700 Mountain Rifle with the long action and have it rebarreled for the Roberts.

Not sure what you didn’t like about the Ruger – my favorite rifle is my M77 Roberts with its 22” barrel.  Polished up the trigger and it is one sweet shooter.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 04:40:40 AM »
Been there, done that with the 25-06. Me & my brother started with a 6mmRem before the 25 & I like it alot too. The 243-6mm lacks nothing for Varmits & has some high BC bullets for paper as well. But the 25 will do all of those things, plus is a good deal better for Deer & Antelope, esp. after 200 yds. I have seen 25-30 Antelope,bunches of Mule Deer & Whitetails & Varmits bite the dust (quickly) from a 25-06.

I have never found the 25-06 to be lacking out to 450 yds or so.
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Offline jimmyp50

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2010, 07:09:07 AM »
I like my Kimber select classic in .257 Roberts.  I shoot 100 grain TSX bullets over 47 grains of H4350 at 3000 fps. Tell me what deer, antelope, pig, ardvark, fiddler crab, or coyote needs more than this? I would not hesitate to shoot a black bear with the 25 cal TSX.
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Offline jimmyp50

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2010, 07:09:58 AM »
if your going to go 25-06 you may as well get a 270win. Got one of those as well.
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Offline mjbgalt

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2010, 10:14:07 AM »
nah, i love my .25-06 and do not enjoy the .270...

big difference to me in recoil and just general ease of shooting.

plus you can go down to the 75 grain bullets for varminting.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2010, 10:22:23 AM »
Based on everyones input  -  I spoke with my Buddy Jeff ,
I spoke with Jeff today and provided all input that was contributed ,
He has determined cartridge will be 25-06 , (he does not intend to reload)

Rifle will have a 24" Barrel

Those he is considering for an "all rounder" Varmint to Deer are:

Browning X-Bolt 6 3/4lbs
Tikka T3 stainless 23" barrel 6.5lbs
Remington XCR stainless 7.5lbs Lbs
Remington XHR Realtree Camo 7.5lbs

He also has a line on a local used Win Sporter 24" barrel (unknown weight)
seller wants 575.00 for it w/o scope, with scope 695.00 (Pentax 4.5x14x42)


Anyone want to throw another into the mix he should shoulder before he buys?
Jeff is about 5'8" tall


"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline mjbgalt

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2010, 10:27:50 AM »
maybe an encore?

would be nice to be able to shoot more than one cartridge?
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline john keyes

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Re: Inquiry - Combination deer, antelope, and varmint rifle ?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 12:34:06 PM »
 First, let’s eliminate a few:  6mm RM

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 :D
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.