Author Topic: New Handi Rifle owner in .357! Have a few questions (Read 5786 times)

Deavis · « **on:** January 14, 2010, 07:27:10 PM »

Greetings. New member, been troling a while here learning about the Handi.

From my local Bimart I got a .357 Handi New delivered for $210.16. Seemed like a great deal. The box was marked as an SB2 receiver but gun is an SB1. It is stamped Ilion, NY on the side (Remington). I was happy to see it had sling studs installed and came with a hammer offset spur! which was not referenced in the catalog.

My plan for this gun is to shoot it and make sure it has decent accuracy (Ill accept sub 3.5 MOA) and then cut the barrel at 16.1" and thread it to accept a 9mm suppressor, down load .357 200 grainers to 1050 FPS and have a very quiet Handi.

It will be similar to this rifle when done:

http://www.silencerresearch.com/free_silencer_reviews.htm

Before I go to that trouble thuogh I want to make sure it shoots by mounting up a 3 x 9 x 40, breaking in the barrel and shootign some groups.

Questions:

1) Does anyone know if the new guns from Remington have fixed the forcing cone issue I have read about?

2) What are the right rings for the Handi with a 40 mm? I am thinking low would work?

3) Any idea of new Handi twist rates in .357? I saw the FAQs but given the remington influence, I wonder if this changed?

Many thanks!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2010, 09:04:11 PM »

Welcome! SB2 barrel markings are irrelevent as to the frame they're on, your 357 frame is an SB1 as indicated by the model number on the box and the marking on the right side of the frame.

Chamber configuration of the 357mag doesn't make any difference, they shoot 38 special and up just as well, do a little more research, there are hundreds of discussions on the popularity of the 357mag/max, ignore the chamber and enjoy shooting it.

There are no "right" rings, scope choice makes the big difference for hammer clearance, objective diameter makes little difference since the hammer will hit the scope ocular bell or power ring long before the scopes gets close to the barrel, see the ring and scope info in the FAQs, that's the best place to start to glean info on H&Rs for newbies.

Twist rates are also listed in the FAQs, yours is likely 1:15½", but the only way to know is check it, how to is listed below the twist list.

Tim

wreckhog · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:03:34 AM »

Never shot a suppressed gun but I'd give .38 Special wadcutters a go in the full length barrel first, at least for future reference.

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2010, 04:53:25 AM »

Welcome Deavis,

IMHO, the Handi .357s are among the most inherently accurate Handis. I have two, a mag and a maxi, and they are both tack drivers with about anything I put through them. At fifty yards, you'll have trouble figuring out how many bullets went through the same Hole

At 100, they open up really wide......such as 3 holes touching

,.... if you do your part. If it shoots 3.5 MOA, send it back, that's a slingshot, not a Handi.

I would suggest, that since you're putting a bit of gunsmithing into it, have it reamed to Maximum at the same time. That gives you three rifles in one.

Good luck and good shooting,

Pete

Deavis · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2010, 05:56:06 AM »

I thought about the handi getting reamed to MAX but I had two concerns:

1) Lengthening the chamber will reduce additional "free bore" where the bullet is travelling unsupported and is not generally preferred for accuracy... correct? a .38 bouncing along until it hits lands and grooves I would not imagine will be as good as a performer as a .357 loaded long where the bullet near touches the rifling when chambered. I am actually thinking of making a chamber cast (It will be my first) of this rifle. So I can load appropriately.

2) 357 max brass is spendy! For my 1050 fps application I dont need it, and it would make all my 357 mags have that long free bore jump.

I hope my handi shoots well, will be a few weeks before I find out. Googling the .357 handi accuracy gives quite a few horror stories. I guess I am just thinking with my luck it will be a sling shot not a tack driver. Thus making me want to figure out the chamber cast/load long, prep those .357 cases like rifle brass, and do everything right.

Thoughts?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2010, 06:18:34 AM »

The chamber is already long, here's a previous discussion on it, it's still the most popular pistol chambering and the second most popular chambering H&R makes, I say shoot it and don't worry about it.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125780.msg1098446320.html#msg1098446320

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,194654.msg1098987543.html#msg1098987543

petemi · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2010, 06:38:01 AM »

When I got the first .357, I was scared to death to ream it for the same reasons you're thinking. It was a shooter. When I got the second and it shot well too, I said "what the heck, risk it". Well after reaming, I couldn't see any difference in performance with .38s, mags or maxis. I believe the freebore is a non-issue. The .38s don't "bounce around" at all. They shoot accurately and a little high due to muzzle jump....lower velocity and longer time in the barrel. That's all.

I think ya need to relax until you get the rifle. You're dreaming up problems that in reality, more than likely don't exist. It may, perhaps, need some tinkering to improve accuracy (unlikely), but if it does, the how tos and help are right here.

Yeah, max brass costs, but it's only pennys more to reload over .38s once you've got it.

There's a lot of mis/disinformation on the web about Handis......the facts reside here. The pros, the cons and the cures. Search .357s here, and you'll find 99% favorables.

I've been hanging around here for about 3 years. I found GBO when I had only one Handi, a .45-70. Now I have eleven of them, and I'm thrilled with all of them.

The general consensus here it that the .357 is one of the "must have" Handis along with the .30-30 and .45-70. Many of us have happily reamed them to Maxi and never looked back.

When you get the rifle, pour .38s and mags through it, and I think you're going to

without any problems.

Good luck,

Pete

Deavis · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2010, 06:52:03 AM »

Well this is all encouraging. I have the rifle just wont have time to shoot it and need to russle up some glass to do the accuracy testing. The gun will wear a red dot when done.

Usually I dont get overly excited until I shoot but given the .357 problems I had read I was a little overly cautious about the whole thing. The money in the rifle isnt much but the effort in threading and chopping and crowning, and my long term plan of a silent handi makes me want to make sure the host barrel is good to go. I will probably do a little break in/JB bore clean, and report back on my accuracy results!

Thanks for the help to a new guy. I could see them being addictive, that .30-30 to .30-40 conversion may also be calling me, which would entail another Handi Buy!

petemi · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:32:04 AM »

Yeah, and then there's the .44 mag to .454 or .460....... Of course, you'll have to get a .45-70 too. The S.O.Bs around here have got ya infected already.

I've got red dots on all my pistol caliber Handis and they work well with my old eyes. There's a new one arriving today. The .357 mag is going down State to be cut to 16.5 inches, recrowned and reamed to Max. When it comes back, it'll wear the red dot and a synthetic youth stock and live in my pick-up.

I put Allen #206 cartridge holders on all my Handis. They hold nine rounds. With the .357 Max, it's got 3 of each .38s, mags and maxis. The chamber holds what I think I'll need first....the mag covers most needs.

Pete

tobster · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:41:55 AM »

Quote from: petemi on January 15, 2010, 07:32:04 AM

Yeah, and then there's the .44 mag to .454 or .460....... Of course, you'll have to get a .45-70 too. The S.O.Bs around here have got ya infected already.

I've got red dots on all my pistol caliber Handis and they work well with my old eyes. There's a new one arriving today. The .357 mag is going down State to be cut to 16.5 inches, recrowned and reamed to Max. When it comes back, it'll wear the red dot and a synthetic youth stock and live in my pick-up.

I put Allen #206 cartridge holders on all my Handis. They hold nine rounds. With the .357 Max, it's got 3 of each .38s, mags and maxis. The chamber holds what I think I'll need first....the mag covers most needs.

Pete
44 Mag to 454 or 460?? Might you be thinking of the 45Colt?

petemi · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:50:54 AM »

Dahhh, Yeah..... .445. I've got it bad. Got a .45 carbine that's gonna grow soon too.

Too many 4s and 5s for my old brain

Thanks,

Pete

Deavis · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:59:08 AM »

For those who are interested this is cut and pasted from the e-mail I got back from the owner of the Handi used in the test on www.silencerreseach link referenced above. I know this forum is not a silencer afficiando type forum but the Handi does lend its self well to that use, for what is worth. And my interested in suppressed .357 mag led me to the Handi! Sometimes you never know where your road is going to take you!

Here was his experience that kind of freaked me out, and there was a similar posting on Calguns or the firing line...

The first HandiRifle in 357 we did was for a customer, and it interested me enough to buy one for myself a couple of years ago, which led to some disappointment that I have yet to rectify. Both guns had 16" twist barrels and I would be very surprised if that has changed in the current rifles. A 16" twist should be adequate to stabilize even 180 gr. bullets, but my experience with the first rifle was limited in this regard and the one I bought for myself has a problem in the chamber that simply won't allow accuracy testing of any kind. The chamber is so long that even the 180 gr. bullet is in free flight for 1/8" before it encounters the rifling, and groups at 100 yards were never better than 8", which is certainly not acceptable. I have no idea if this is common on this rifle, my inquiries to H&R went unanswered.

Truth is, while disappointed, I wasn't very worried about it because I wanted to try a faster twist to see if bullet performance could be improved at subsonic velocities. Live tissue tests with the Hornady 180 XTP in the 16" twist barrel showed little expansion, nothing more than the jacket petals starting to peel. Hornady says this bullet is capable of MOA accuracy or better, and expansion from 900 fps to 1400 fps

My plan is to bore out the barrel and create a monoblock into which I can screw a new barrel. I plan to use a 10" twist with a 38 spl chamber to start. I may make it 357 eventually, but subsonic is the goal and the smaller case may give the best results. The ammunition I loaded and tested in the original chamber was quite inconsistent, showing more than 200 fps ES if I recall correctly. That may well have been caused by the over length condition of the chamber, I'm looking forward to experimenting with that when I have the new barrel made.

The goal is for a reasonably accurate subsonic rifle firing a heavy bullet that will penetrate well and yet expand well also. Hawk bullets offers a 170 thin jacketed bullet that will be in consideration, but I am anxious to see if the faster twist will help the Hor XTP.

Lots to do and I simply haven't been able to make time for the project, but will soon 'cause I'm tired of waiting.

I hope I haven't bored you, and in the midst of the ramble answered your questions.

petemi · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:19:48 AM »

Help everyone!! I've never hear of a problem like that with a .357, have you? Greasy latch shelf, forend fit??Something there is definately wrong.

Pete

Deavis · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:50:48 AM »

More ammo that fueled my concerns on this accuracy issue!

Here is the cut and paste from http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-9422.html

plateshooterFebruary 17, 2003, 02:55 PM
I have one of the 357 Handi Rifles. It's accuracy depends on what you consider to be accurate. From talking to others, mine seems typical. Around 5-7" from a bench at 100 yds no matter what load I put through it. I have a Williams Reciever sight on it.
Trigger is excellent, and it is handy.

So you could see my concerns! But we will just shoot - n -see!

snapcrackpop · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:08:41 AM »

Most accuracy "bugs" can be worked out by looking in the FAQ's. I would not be surprised if people from other sources have issues. Just point them here.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:51:17 AM »

Deavis,
If what your reading carries so much weight, take some time and read the FAQ's. It's enlightening.

Like Peter said, the 357 is one of the MOST accurate calibers along with the 30-30 in the ENTIRE H&R lineup! It's definitely one of the most liked calibers along with the 45/70. It wouldn't have this following if it didn't shoot well.

My own is a factory chambered 357 Maximum. It shoots its favorite load well into an inch @100 yards. It shoots 357magnums just about as well. With 38 Sp's it dumps tin cans every time, if the shooter can shoot easily out to 30-40 yards.

Feedback just like that is re-typed hundreds of times over in the pages here on this website.

Now I'm not going to say that there isn't lemons or even flatly inaccurate firearms. name me a company that hasn't had them... there isn't one. But we here have found that there are a couple easy fixes that correct the vast majority of accuracy problems with them. We all know that we are a minority when it comes to our views on the H&R's. But our numbers are growing with every person. who gives them a try and or finds the excellent people and knowledge here on this site.

So grab a cup of coffee and start reading thru our FAQ's, I think you will see the light.

CW

Deavis · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:55:17 AM »

I was all through the faqs before posting, just trying to lay a foundation for my concern.

aflineman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:14:40 AM »

Play with it and see what it does. I will be trading for a .357 barrel here soon, and I am looking forward to it. Should be a nice barrel to load for and mess with. Should also be a good walk around rifle for the woods. Suppression may be in the future for me, but not that soon. I still need to save up for a .308 suppressor and the tax.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:30:29 AM »

Quote from: Deavis link=topic=195956.msg 1098998074#msg 1098998074 date=1263592517

I was all through the FAQ's before posting, just trying to lay a foundation for my concern.

That is what we are trying to tell/show you. Your "foundation" looks to be to be based on two threads form a couple people in two separate websites... Reading here you will find dozens of positive threads from people who own, shoot and love theirs.

SO, what did you come away with when you read the parts about easily fixing the accuracy problems? (Should they even surface.)

If you look at this from our perspective, our results for outweigh theirs... Also, this all couple and likely is for naught. Go shoot it and lets see what happens.

CW

av-doctor · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:15:23 PM »

LMAO thehighroad.org really?? your basing an opinion on a post from there? let me be the first to tell you you bought a bad gun you should not test it at all!! place it on the floor in front of you and back away slowly DO NOT MAKE EYE CONTACT ! vacate the premise ASAP we will send a containment team over promptly to relieve you at a bare minimum of expense to you! it will be parted i mean destroyed ASAP! we are sorry for the inconvenience.

Psst, i got dibs on the barrel you guys can split the rest

Honestly shoot it you will be surprised.I too left the information overload scare me after i put my first one on layaway and was kicking myself for weeks till it arrived. imagine my surprise when i shot it the first time and got about 1.25in groups with cheap bulk white box 45gr. handloads made it a whole different rifle easily an inch all day long.more i shoot it the better it gets.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:20:40 PM »

If you are really worried about the jump try and see if .360DW brass will chamber in it. It also alows you to bump them up some when not useing the can. I have three .357s one is reamed to max they will all shoot an inch or better at 100 yards. Use Trailboss in the max cases and you can prolly get subsonic with 180 or 200 grain bullets easy.

revbc · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:45:03 PM »

Here's a group with my sb1 357. Nothing has been touched except reaming it to max. These are short 158gr plated cheap bullets! The hole to the right is the paper punched hole in the target.

mechanic · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »

Welcome aboard friend. I will tell you this, if you are unsatisfied with your 357, you can probably part it out on this forum and get all your money back. Here is my used barrel I fitted to a SB1 frame. I shoot 360 DW or slightly shortened max. in my unreamed 357....

mike@nds · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2010, 04:53:17 PM »

Sometimes long bullets running subsonic won't stabilize unless they have a faster twist.

The other possibility is that they were having "baffle strike" from a can that is not mounted concentric to the bore.

My .357 shoots great, 1.5" at 100 yards with iron sights.

Maybe those boys just need some remedial marksmanship training.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2010, 05:46:07 PM »

i have a chopped and suppressed rossi

just like what your wanting to do

i never shoot it now i have my handi
180grain slug....bulls eye powder [light]

who needs a suppressor

Deavis · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:02:26 PM »

Wow.... ok... Hey - Not spitting on the Pope or anything....

AVDR - the high road post was just one of a few issues I had seen. Believe me from a few bad experiences.... if someone had a bad one I would too, despite 10K good ones. Apparently MURPHY lives in my back yard. Just my luck... believe me.

MIKE@NDS - Yeah a baffle strike on my $500 plus $200 tax can from my $210.16 Handi is NOT OK and exactly what I want to avoid.... but rest assured threads will be cut from the ID of barrel... NOT the OD... of course not that a handi would be off center......

cwlongshot - got a 3-9-50 Burris to test with.. just need to grab the right rings. I will do about 10 loads or so and post. I agree with the shoot - n - see ... but. The High Road post may be suspect but the silencer research forum and the accompanied targets shot (although not well) DO give cause for concern. Including me tracking down the owner of the test rifle .... its not exactly......"pulp internet BS" ...given my goals (silent/accurate/cost effectve) you can see why came to Mecca (GBO) for this system. if it is too much a Pain... believe me I will go another way... The one variable I can elimiate is cheap.... TC .357 or a Ruger #1/3 in .357 are not undoable. but the Handi is loveable....as you know.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #26 on:** January 16, 2010, 12:13:11 AM »

I never quite could understand the fascination for such large objectives with today's optics.... But to each his own. Lucky, Tim is correct and the objective diameters is not usually an issue with the mounting.
I have a Burris Signature 1x5x20 on my BP Sidekick. It's mounted in LO PRW Leupold rings. So I will venture that these will clear the ocular lens of yours as well, but med may be a safer bet with that bulbous objective....

Now just go shoot it and don't forget to have fun!! Like I said, all this could and likely will be for naught.

Post back up after and let us know what you discover.

CW

av-doctor · « **Reply #27 on:** January 16, 2010, 02:34:45 AM »

i'm sorry for jumpin on ya but anytime you ask a question there they just say throw more money at it. if your not shooting a $2500 rig its junk! BS

Why put a can on a single? already have it and want another use for it?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** January 16, 2010, 06:07:12 AM »

Here's a 50mm Simmons scope in medium Burris Signature Zee rings, sufficient clearance at the barrel, not a lot at an unmodified hammer, but it clears and would work fine with a hammer extension.

Tim

TheBanker · « **Reply #29 on:** January 16, 2010, 06:19:02 AM »

These are low leupold rings on the factory base. Scope objective is 40mm.