FINDING MY C.O.L FOR A 45-70

[hoosierdome]

I have a new SS Encore 45-70 barrel. I have never reloaded straight wall cartridges before and have a few questions. Having to expand for the bullet and then crimp, what the best way to figure out how to get my C.O.L. It’s easy for me with bottle necks, not sure how to go about this.

[Grumulkin]

1.  You don't need to crimp ANYTHING loaded in an Encore.

2.  I deliberately seat the bullets a little long and then gradually seat them deeper until the action just closes and marks from the lands aren't seen on the bullet.  This results in the bullet being just off the lands.  In any case, seat the bullets deep enough so at least caliber length of bullet is inside the case. even if that means the bullet isn't just off the lands (you might encounter this situation with lighter bullets).

[hoosierdome]

I tried just expanding the mouth and expanding more of the case. When I seat the bullet, if I try seating the bullet beyond where I have expanded the case the case buckles. And as I expand more, the lip of the case bells out. I’m using a Hornady 3 piece die set and speer 400 gn jacket bullets. And because the lip of the case bells out I can't place the case into the chamber.

[Grumulkin]

I'm thinking the problem may be with the expander die.  The expander is supposed to expand the body of the case in addition to putting a slight bell at the mouth.  I know 45-70 brass isn't as robust as say 458 Lott brass but if the expander operation is performed properly with the right die the brass shouldn't buckle when seating bullets.  If it were me, I would probably try different dies but I know that's an expensive way to go.  You could also call or e-mail Hornady about your problem and see if they have any suggestions.  Die manufactures have been known to make mistakes from time to time (it happened to me TWICE from the same company with dies for the same cartridge).

As far as the cartridges not chambering because of the bell on the case is concerned; that would be a reason to crimp.  My choice for that operation would be a Lee Factory Crimp Die since it applies circumferential pressure to crimp and won't buckle the case.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I'm not sure if you're having a problem with the die, or just the setup of the die. When I expand my 45-70 brass, there is definitely a bell at the case mouth. I'm using RCBS dies for what it's worth, but I don't think that's the issue. Your expanded brass needs to be able to have a bullet base "clear" the bell and sit down a bit into the brass. I use mostly soft cast bullets, and they won't take being seated that hard into the brass. Once my bullet is seated to the desired length, I use my crimp die to just knock the bell back straight to the case wall, and no deeper. In other words, the case mouth is now flat to the side of the bullet, but doesn't turn inwards at all. Sometimes, depending on the chamber, you can even leave the case mouth slightly belled outwards (very slightly).

If you're trying to seat the bullet without belling the case mouth, that would do it. Don't worry about the belled out mouth being a problem, you can go back in a separate step afterwards and flatten out the bell using your crimp die. It sounds to me like you don't have enough expansion and casemouth bell to start with.

Take a piece of brass that is ready for the expander die step, and do a trial expansion, then try to chamber the brass in your barrel. It's easier to do if the barrel is on the frame (for extraction), but it's not necessary. Then by slightly increasing the amount of expansion in increments, you will find the amount of expansion and casemouth belling that will still chamber in your barrel. You can then use this piece of brass to do the seat test to find the OAL for your chamber and this bullet. Start by seating this bullet long, and incrementally seating the bullet deeper while checking it in your barrel. Once you have this OAL, you don't need to do your brass that way for the batch of handloads. Just expand and bell the brass enough for good bullet seating, and use the crimp die to just take the bell out when your done.

I hope I didn't make that too confusing. If so, let me know, and I'll try to whip together some pictures with my 45-70 dies, brass, and my Contender barrel. It's much easier than it sounds all typed out like this.

[hoosierdome]

Thanks I'll give that a try

[Dezynco]

Here's a neat trick I learned when shooting Black Powder Cartridge Rifles.

Do a full length resize on one case.  Now take a Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel or a very fine toothed hacksaw blade to make a slit down the two sides of the case, about 1" deep.  Now you can take the bullet that you are interested in loading and just barely finger-seat it into the case.  Take your new  "freebore" gage and cram it into the chamber and close the barrel.  Carefully slide your new tool out and measure it with a micrometer.  When setting up your bullet seating die, you'll need to tighten it a bit further down than your "freebore" gague measured.  A few thousandths is fine it you want to seat just off the lands.

You can make a tool for every cartridge that you shoot to measure the actual overall length of the chamber.