How much does the US spend on war?

[yellowtail3]

doesn't look good for that link/report being an indicator of the cost of the current war in Iraq/Afghanistan

but it's still pretty high, and very, very bad

[ironglow]

How about just cause they started it?  In the case of al Qaeda, that is exactly what happened and it's ours to finish.  Where is General Lemay when you need him?

I must have slept through this war! I didn't know we invaded the nation of Al Qaeda!

   "I didn't know we invaded the nation of Al Queda"....  You just have to extricate yourself from that old "geographical lines' warfare mode.   That hasn't been effective strategic thinking for the last 40 years...
   Just ask yourself.."Where does Al Queda operate ?".. What ever logical answer you come up with may well be where we have to operate! Like the savvy rancher, We can either go clean out the wolves' lair..or let them come kill our "calves" every now and then ! 

[Cabin4]

How about just cause they started it?  In the case of al Qaeda, that is exactly what happened and it's ours to finish.  Where is General Lemay when you need him?

I must have slept through this war! I didn't know we invaded the nation of Al Qaeda!

   Like the savvy rancher, We can either go clean out the wolves' lair..or let them come kill our "calves" every now and then ! 

Or we can just cease being an ignorant international pariah with a self serving/ biased and hypocritical international foreign policy and watch the terror targeted against us slowly decline.

[Dee]

How about just cause they started it?  In the case of al Qaeda, that is exactly what happened and it's ours to finish.  Where is General Lemay when you need him?

I must have slept through this war! I didn't know we invaded the nation of Al Qaeda!

   Like the savvy rancher, We can either go clean out the wolves' lair..or let them come kill our "calves" every now and then !  

Or we can just cease being an ignorant international pariah with a self serving/ biased and hypocritical international foreign policy and watch the terror targeted against us slowly decline.

Plus 1  Cabin4. The sooner we start minding our own damn business, and cleaning up our own back yard the sooner we'll find out that the Muslims will go back to killing each other. I don't give a hoot whom we buy our oil from, and I think it would get a lot damn cheaper if we'd stay out of it.
We're trying to ram our beliefs down another religions throats, and it AIN'T WORKIN. We have wide open borders, a corupt government, a failing economy, and yet KNOWING OUR GOVERNMENT IS CORUPT, SOME STILL BELIEVE A LIE THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN ON NATIONAL TV TO BE A LIE. SADDAM WAS EVIL? OUR OWN GOVERNMENT THRU "PLANNED PARENTHOOD" HAS SLAUGHTERED 50,000,000 INNOCENT BABIES, TO THE TUNE OF 1,600,000 A YEAR AND STILL COUNTING. GOD BLESS AMERICA YOU SAY? I DON'T THINK SO!
 WE GRUMBLE ABOUT OUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WHILE ALL THE WHILE, THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS TOGETHER, AND IN CONJUNCTION, SEND OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO FIGHT AND DIE, FOR IRAQI FREEDOM WHILE THEY VOTE OUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS HERE IN AMERICA AWAY, A FEW AT A TIME.

                              BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[Casull]

Or we can just cease being an ignorant international pariah with a self serving/ biased and hypocritical international foreign policy and watch the terror targeted against us slowly decline.

Yep, that's good.  Let's just forget about 9-11 and all the other terrorist strikes against us and ours, and hope the bad guys decide to leave us alone.  Sounds like a plan.   

[Cabin4]

No one is saying we should forget. I am saying we better realize the errors of our ways. Our government is completly and totally corrupt Casull and until the American people finally realize this and take appropriate action, we will just have the same BS and or worse. Both our foreign & domestic policies are corrupt. That corruption is manifesting itself as terrorisam as it relates to the foriegn policy aspect. On the domestic front, I don't think I need to expand that. You should be well versed.

[ironglow]

 Cabin4;
   No doubt there is a great deal of corruption in our govt. I just read the book "Outrage" by Dick Morris; it gives a good account of some of the shennanigans that go on by many individuals in both major parties. However we cannot figure "many politicians are corrupt, so there is no sense in pro-actively defending the American people" ! Also, it is (IMO) counterproductive to refuse to vote...allowing the same old crooks to go on..and on ...and on...
   I'm presently reading the biography of Sarah Palin, written by Mr. Hiller. If you could read that book or any other profile in depth about  her, you would find that she is a great deal smarter than some here think,  or the alphabet networks (who really know better) care to admit !
     You don't want corruption..read her biography, the biography of a consummate corruption fighter. read what she accomplished in rooting out corruption in Alaska. most of the politicians she took down were Republicans..same label as hers..Ask Alaskans right here if that is not true !
  Frankly, if she runs for higher office, I will vote for her. I don't give a whit if she runs as an independent, a Conservative, Republican or Tea Party member. just DO YOUR HOMEWORK.. and forget labels.
     A statement made in this thread not long ago said she would make a fine first lady, but never a president..if her husband Todd were running they would vote for him.
  ..Curiously, Todd has no political aspirations and even avoids the spotlight...
  
  That statement was only a short sentence, but it said much.. It said;     "NO woman, ..but ANY man" !

  Yes, some women are quite emotional, but then so are some men..chiefly liberals...But let me hasten to remind you of a couple women who were remarkable leaders ...

   Golda Maier and Maggie Thatcher led their nations at a time when both were severely tried..and came up smiling. Thatcher being the most effective prime minister the UK has had ..from Winston Churchill until today. When the "Iron Lady" spoke..nations listened.
 Just think..just think perchance next presidential election pits Palin against Obama. Then there are numerous people who, rather than vote for a woman or a Republican..just won't vote, ...allowing the Socialist/Marxist to stay just where he is.



   Fellows; if you want to serve your country...Forget gender and party labels, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK..then vote !

[Dee]

ironglow, your are starting to sound like me. What happened?


                                  BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[Cabin4]

I’m not fixated on party labels. Both major parties stink in my opinion. As far as corruption, it goes deeper than any single or the collective bunch of politicians. Yes, I think there are non-corrupt politicians. Ron Paul would be my best example of a good one.

Our process of legislation development has become corrupt as well are the agencies that we support and are run by beurocrates. Many of these agencies have no business being in existence, based on our constitution and the powers afforded to the federal government. If we look at our laws and policies of this government and contrast that to our constitution, its proof our government is corrupt. The constitution is the ultimate  law of this land and the fact that our government has migrated so far from it, is what I will also refer to as corruption. Corrupt is an abstract term in this context

The government is suppose to follow the constitution not devise ways to usurp it or find loop hole in it. If you or I did this as a citizen with say IRS regs or a state law, we would go to jail. The fact that our government continues to violate our constitution and no one pays a price for this, is confirmation of wide spread abstract corruption.

Palin: I can take her or leave her. I do not like here stance on foreign policy. Refer back to earlier points. Is she qualified to be president? I don’t think so yet. But if she were up against Obama or likely any democrat, I would vote for her. But this is no ringing endorsement on my part. Its only the lesser of vote for me.

[ironglow]

Cabin4;
  As I said earlier, if all the folks on this thread were together at a picnic or something, I'm sure we would all agree on much, much more than what we disagree. i don't suppose you or I have either buded a great deal in our opinions..we are perhaps just understanding each other a bit better.
  I was listening to Fred Thompson on radio a while ago, and he put it like this: " Whether it is Democrat vs Republican or Democrat vs Republican vs Independent..I will vote for the most conservative, most Constitutional one on the ballot. That's how I see it..to refuse to vote at all is giving a free vote to the one I would least like to see in office..because the vote I withold, would normally be cast against that bird.

[Cabin4]

IG,

Your likely spot on. I'm absolutely certain we do all agree on likely 95%. We tend to focus on the 5% here. An internet forum is not always the best discussion vehicle. But it’s what we have and how else can so many guys from all other the country communicate so quickly and efficiently...I think a lot of us like to focus on the differences between us to make sure we "state our case". Just the way it is. Face to face discussion is always best in my opinion.

I agree with Fred Thomson also and I always vote 100% of the time as much as I hate pulling the lever most all of the time.

[rio grande]

How much do we spend on war?
Officially $708 billion dollars.

But actually closer to 1000 Billion dollars.  ($1 trillion). Yearly.

"By the way, if you were to add up the real “defense” budget, including funds for the Department of Homeland Security, the Energy Department (which handles the U.S. nuclear arsenal), veterans’ care, the State Department’s planned near-billion-dollar expansion of its embassy in Pakistan into a mega-command post for the region and the planned doubling of the number of personnel in its already monstrous embassy in Baghdad for a similar purpose, and many other relevant things, you would be closing in on $1 trillion per year. "

http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/2010/01/19/going-rogue-in-combat-boots/

[Dee]

Cabin4;
  As I said earlier, if all the folks on this thread were together at a picnic or something, I'm sure we would all agree on much, much more than what we disagree. i don't suppose you or I have either buded a great deal in our opinions..we are perhaps just understanding each other a bit better.
  I was listening to Fred Thompson on radio a while ago, and he put it like this: " Whether it is Democrat vs Republican or Democrat vs Republican vs Independent..I will vote for the most conservative, most Constitutional one on the ballot. That's how I see it..to refuse to vote at all is giving a free vote to the one I would least like to see in office..because the vote I withold, would normally be cast against that bird.

So if Fred Thompson says he votes for the most conservative candidate on the ballot, that means he would not have voted Republican, as there were two "more conservative" candidates on the ballot, than the Republican, or the Democrat. This last election the Republican was the lessor of two evils, but not the most conservative on the ballot, and you agree with him and would vote the same? Did I understand that right?


                                               BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[teamnelson]

Ahh, yes, the age old question. So now let's ask another question. How much of that $ spent is paid to U.S. persons or corporations? (Yes, l do know that there are international interests behind those as well, but let's just focus on the U.S.) How many American families are paying their bills, eating at restraunts, and shopping in stores with money they earned through the "war machine?" How many small businesses (and large) rely on those families to spend that money with them, which lets them pay their bills, eat at restraunts ... and pay their employees to do the same?

If/when you halt the war spending, how do you plan to employ the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who are directly or indirectly employed through war dollars? Which industry is not affected by the military? Medicine? Air? Space? Transportation? Agriculture? How many more thousand/millions would be affected at a secondary or tertiary scale? Do you plan to buy all the guns S&W was planning to sell to Africa? Or the 800,000 ACOGs Trijicon was going to sell to the Marines?

Let's say you waved your magic wand and redirected the $ to schools (its for the children we cry!) or to health care, would those hordes of unemployed folks have the skills to fill out all the new programs you want to implement? And now that we have the best HC and education money can buy, where do we get the $ from next year to pay the budget with millions laid off, and no war industry to bolster the economy. Is there an industry we're not in, we could be in, that would have the same economic effect as the war industry to where we could phase into it over time with only a slight dip?

And exactly what is a reasonable cost to defend the 3rd largest economy in the world, an economy whose size is significantly comprised of "war" industries? Do you intentionally buy the rossi .38 and white box ball for self defense? Or is your life worth say a J frame smith with cst grips and some hydrashok? How do you determine that cost?

[Dee]

So your saying that having a war where thousands of young Americans die for lies and money, and the jobs a war produces is worth it? Have you had a son or daughter in either of these two wars? Or did you tell other peoples sons and daughters where to go while you sat in you office. I have, and I don't give a damn whether you get to eat in a restaurant or not.
No one in Iraq attacked the U.S. They attacked the oil stealin, ANGLE DRILLIN, Kuwaitis.
War is misery, and suffering, and death and dying, and life time injuries, and family losses, not J frame Smith and Wesson revolvers. You should know that.
Defending the third largest economy in the world? BS! We're the largest CONSUMER in the world. China took over our PRODUCTION, and the same government that INVENTED THE IRAQ WAR gave our jobs away. You talk like we need to be a MERCENARY NATION, which is about what we're becoming. Sixty percent of ALL GOVERNMENT DEFENSE CONTRACTS, are right here in my home state of Texas.
When you equate blood for money, use your own blood. You go fight the war your so glad to have, and I'll go buy another J frame Smith and think about you when I shoot it. It's a sad day when American blood is worth less than money. Yours is one of the sicker synopsises of these two wars.

                                     BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[Cabin4]

If/when you halt the war spending, how do you plan to employ the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who are directly or indirectly employed through war dollars?

The government won't need to borrow that money from China anymore and therefore our interest payment on the national debt will be reduced, thus allowing less in tax collection. People will have more money to spend in the private sectors that will spawn job creation. Corporate business taxes will be reduced that will allow business/corporation to have more working capital to reinvent in their business thus creating more jobs in the private sector. Today we have the highest corporate/business tax rates in the industrialized world and we wonder why so many jobs are being off-shored??? Our federal government is literally incentivizing companies to completely leave the USA all together.

No need to worry about this. It will take care of itself. But I will say that I really dislike this comparison. War should never be a tactic to gain employment or make people rich. I think Dee elaborated on this well enough.

[teamnelson]

So your saying that having a war where thousands of young Americans die for lies and money, and the jobs a war produces is worth it? Have you had a son or daughter in either of these two wars? I have, and I don't give a damn whether you get to eat in a restaurant or not.
No one in Iraq attacked the U.S. They attacked the oil stealin, ANGLE DRILLIN, Kuwaitis.
War is misery, and suffering, and death and dying, and life time injuries, and family losses, not J frame Smith and Wesson revolvers.
Defending the third largest economy in the world? BS! We're the largest CONSUMER in the world. China took over our PRODUCTION, and the same government that INVENTED THE IRAQ WAR gave our jobs away. You talk like we need to be a MERCENARY NATION, which is about what we're becoming. Sixty percent of ALL GOVERNMENT DEFENSE CONTRACTS, are right here in my home state of Texas.
When you equate blood for money, use your own blood. You go fight the war your so glad to have, and I'll go buy another J frame Smith and think about you when I shoot it. Yours is one of the sicker synopsises of these two wars.

                                     BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

I never made a value comparison. I never said it was worth it. I've been to this war twice, lost over 40 of my own, personally held each of their bodies, looked their families in the eye, was wounded myself and permanently disabled. Not because I believe in this war, but because I believe in the young people who choose to serve like your kids. Don't twist what I posted as an affirmation of this war. You got an axe to grind on this war, don't shake it at me. Unlike you, I have a personal investment, and a front line perspective.

You got a problem with economics or with the war, which is it? Economically our nation is so wrapped around the war industry, these fairytale notions of turning it all off and all will be right is just plain ignorant. 60% of defense spending in Texas? which category? If you took all the $ associated with DOD out of the state of Hawaii, it'd be like Haiti in a decade. California, Texas, Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona ... all of them have entire cities whose businesses rely on military presence.

Agreed, this war ain't worth it. Now what. So what's your big plan? What does it look like? What's a reasonable number of unemployed Americans you're willing to shoulder? Do you have a government solution for their employment or do we foist them over on the already saturated private sector with over 10% unemployment? Or is that their own problem because they must've been pro-war or they wouldn't have taken that clerical job in the Finance dept, and we don't like those war machine mongers.

Or are you just great in the locker room but nothing with your cleats on.

[Cabin4]

TN,
Why do you believe that our government needs a solution for post war employment? We operate in a capitalist economy. It’s not the governments job to play a role in this directly. The private sector will solve this issue organically based on the needs of consumers and industry. Implying that the government needs to have a plan means that it ultimately becomes the tax payers problem and yet more government intervention in what is designed to be solved through capitalism. If there is a legitimate need, the jobs will be there. If not and the government steps in, it simply will manifest itself in more fake government spending.

[Dee]

So your saying that having a war where thousands of young Americans die for lies and money, and the jobs a war produces is worth it? Have you had a son or daughter in either of these two wars? I have, and I don't give a damn whether you get to eat in a restaurant or not.
No one in Iraq attacked the U.S. They attacked the oil stealin, ANGLE DRILLIN, Kuwaitis.
War is misery, and suffering, and death and dying, and life time injuries, and family losses, not J frame Smith and Wesson revolvers.
Defending the third largest economy in the world? BS! We're the largest CONSUMER in the world. China took over our PRODUCTION, and the same government that INVENTED THE IRAQ WAR gave our jobs away. You talk like we need to be a MERCENARY NATION, which is about what we're becoming. Sixty percent of ALL GOVERNMENT DEFENSE CONTRACTS, are right here in my home state of Texas.
When you equate blood for money, use your own blood. You go fight the war your so glad to have, and I'll go buy another J frame Smith and think about you when I shoot it. Yours is one of the sicker synopsises of these two wars.

                                     BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

I never made a value comparison. I never said it was worth it. I've been to this war twice, lost over 40 of my own, personally held each of their bodies, looked their families in the eye, was wounded myself and permanently disabled. Not because I believe in this war, but because I believe in the young people who choose to serve like your kids. Don't twist what I posted as an affirmation of this war. You got an axe to grind on this war, don't shake it at me. Unlike you, I have a personal investment, and a front line perspective.

You got a problem with economics or with the war, which is it? Economically our nation is so wrapped around the war industry, these fairytale notions of turning it all off and all will be right is just plain ignorant. 60% of defense spending in Texas? which category? If you took all the $ associated with DOD out of the state of Hawaii, it'd be like Haiti in a decade. California, Texas, Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona ... all of them have entire cities whose businesses rely on military presence.

Agreed, this war ain't worth it. Now what. So what's your big plan? What does it look like? What's a reasonable number of unemployed Americans you're willing to shoulder? Do you have a government solution for their employment or do we foist them over on the already saturated private sector with over 10% unemployment? Or is that their own problem because they must've been pro-war or they wouldn't have taken that clerical job in the Finance dept, and we don't like those war machine mongers.

Or are you just great in the locker room but nothing with your cleats on.

I spent 20 years in uniform defending other people's rights, fightin their fights, and going to comrades' funerals. Your post sounded an awful lot like a WAR IS GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY speech to me, with challenges to solutions you can't give yourself. To have done what you said you have done, you certainly speak lightly of war, and now your telling me what YOU have done. You haven't seen or done any more than my 25 year old Sgt. son with not two tours but, three under his belt. He doesn't play if off like you did. He hates it, and remembers his dead brothers in arms, just like his dad does. At the end of the day, killing is just killing and we both, have seen enough of it, and want us out of this nonsensical war. No excuses, no lies, no speeches just out. We should have never went over there. Young men and women volunteered to serve their country, and ended up serving a government gone rouge's agenda instead.
I wasn't in the locker room my friend I was on the field, and I've been tried before. But I don't make light of it, and it wasn't a joke either. A set of rail road tracks on ones collar shows college but, not necessarily wisdom or experience.
You don't have any more, or better, information than the rest of us, and you get yours the same way everyone else does. AND YOU MOST CERTAINLY DID TALK ABOUT THE "WAR PROVIDING JOBS" FOR FAMILIES AT HOME ALLOWING PEOPLE TO EAT IN RESTURANTS FROM THE MONEY MADE, AND OTHER "LUXURIES. YOU SPOKE OF THE "WAR INDUSTRY" BOLSTERING THE ECONOMY. YOU SAID WHAT YOU SAID.


                                       BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[Dee]

Ahh, yes, the age old question. So now let's ask another question. How much of that $ spent is paid to U.S. persons or corporations? (Yes, l do know that there are international interests behind those as well, but let's just focus on the U.S.) How many American families are paying their bills, eating at restraunts, and shopping in stores with money they earned through the "war machine?" How many small businesses (and large) rely on those families to spend that money with them, which lets them pay their bills, eat at restraunts ... and pay their employees to do the same?

If/when you halt the war spending, how do you plan to employ the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who are directly or indirectly employed through war dollars? Which industry is not affected by the military? Medicine? Air? Space? Transportation? Agriculture? How many more thousand/millions would be affected at a secondary or tertiary scale? Do you plan to buy all the guns S&W was planning to sell to Africa? Or the 800,000 ACOGs Trijicon was going to sell to the Marines?

Let's say you waved your magic wand and redirected the $ to schools (its for the children we cry!) or to health care, would those hordes of unemployed folks have the skills to fill out all the new programs you want to implement? And now that we have the best HC and education money can buy, where do we get the $ from next year to pay the budget with millions laid off, and no war industry to bolster the economy. Is there an industry we're not in, we could be in, that would have the same economic effect as the war industry to where we could phase into it over time with only a slight dip?

And exactly what is a reasonable cost to defend the 3rd largest economy in the world, an economy whose size is significantly comprised of "war" industries? Do you intentionally buy the rossi .38 and white box ball for self defense? Or is your life worth say a J frame smith with cst grips and some hydrashok? How do you determine that cost?

Your words my friend.

If you were as wise as you believe you are, then you would know that WAR IS AN EXPENSE, and an economy, ANY ECONOMY, can only "support it" for so long before that economy collapses. It is like a Police Dept. It is not SELF SUFFICIENT. If it were, it would be corrupt, and the people would suffer, just as they are suffering from this CORRUPT WAR. This economy is in dire straits and two WARS are the reason combined with a corrupt government medling in the private sector also. These wars are economically unstainable.
Russia is once again Russia, because WAR BROKE THE ECONOMIC BACK of the Soviet Union.


                                        BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[teamnelson]

You see what you want. I was enlisted for 12 years, got out came back in for more as a Chaplain. I make light of nothing. You have no idea of how I feel; your son probably does.

Again, statement of fact not value, millions of Americans are feeding their families tonight with money cycled through the war industry. Never said it was a reason for war; just said it was the way things are. Do you know what total percentage of our economy relies on the war industry?

You want a solution? Sure, phased withdrawal to a noninterventionist policy. Over years while the economy absorbs. But as Ben pointed out, America won't stand for less security and leave the self enslavement of consumerism so they'll want it all moved to Homeland Defense. That'll make it easy and keep all the industries cranking out defensive material. But an idle army on your homeland is a threat. The real solution is another industry that can absorb the existing labor pool. Any ideas? Heck we might wind up with half of America guarding the other half, in which case who pays the taxes?

It's not as simple as stop war now. Millions of lives will be affected.

[teamnelson]

TN,
Why do you believe that our government needs a solution for post war employment?

I don't.

[Cabin4]

TN,

I think you are confusing the total defense budget spending with spending to support the war. If the war ended, it would safe the tax payers about $140 billion a year. The total annual defense budget is around $700 billion. The industries and business that support the balance ($530 billion) would continue to exsisit in peace time.

[Dee]

You see what you want. I was enlisted for 12 years, got out came back in for more as a Chaplain. I make light of nothing. You have no idea of how I feel; your son probably does.

Again, statement of fact not value, millions of Americans are feeding their families tonight with money cycled through the war industry. Never said it was a reason for war; just said it was the way things are. Do you know what total percentage of our economy relies on the war industry?

You want a solution? Sure, phased withdrawal to a noninterventionist policy. Over years while the economy absorbs. But as Ben pointed out, America won't stand for less security and leave the self enslavement of consumerism so they'll want it all moved to Homeland Defense. That'll make it easy and keep all the industries cranking out defensive material. But an idle army on your homeland is a threat. The real solution is another industry that can absorb the existing labor pool. Any ideas? Heck we might wind up with half of America guarding the other half, in which case who pays the taxes?

It's not as simple as stop war now. Millions of lives will be affected.

Their being affected now, and in an all negative way. We sacrifice lives daily because Americans believe that our government can change an entire country that is run on religious theology. There was a time when this country was a producer country and sold to the world, goods. Now we have sold them our businesses, and have entered into building an Empire much like Rome, that is both unsustainable, and self-righteous.
We have wide open borders while we die to protect others borders whom hate us. The "war machine" jobs you speak of are unsustainable also. Our tax dollars are paying these jobs thru purchase of the product, but the product is being taken to another country and distributed FREE OF CHARGE, are expended in use by the military. There is no real profit except by the Industries. It is ALWAYS THE TAX PAYER THAT SUPPORTS THE WAR. IT'S NOT DOING WHAT YOU SAY AND THINK IT IS DOING. WE'RE BROKE AND GOING DEEPER AND DEEPER IN DEBT WITH THIS "WAR MACHINE"!
CEASE AND DESIST IS OUR ONLY OPTION. IT WON'T HAPPEN, BUT IT SHOULD. CHINA NOW OWNS US BECAUSE OF IT. WE ARE "WAR MACHINING" OUR WAY INTO THIRD WORLD STATUS.


                                 BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

[teamnelson]

Your words my friend.

If you were as wise as you believe you are, then you would know that WAR IS AN EXPENSE, and an economy, ANY ECONOMY, can only "support it" for so long before that economy collapses. It is like a Police Dept. It is not SELF SUFFICIENT. If it were, it would be corrupt, and the people would suffer, just as they are suffering from this CORRUPT WAR. This economy is in dire straits and two WARS are the reason combined with a corrupt government medling in the private sector also. These wars are economically unstainable.
Russia is once again Russia, because WAR BROKE THE ECONOMIC BACK of the Soviet Union.


                                        BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS RIGHT!

Friends don't mock another's service or sacrifice.

Never claimed to be wise, just perhaps better informed about war as I've been around it since 87. Never been a cop, wouldn't claim to know a thing about that.

And yes the war industry is not just an expense; it was alive and well on September 10, spending billions of dollars developing resources, plans, collecting intelligence, and what not, for the contingencies of war. All those trained troops and equipment existed before we went to war. In fact in 2001 the NDB was about 400 Billion; at the peak of the war (2008) total spending was 700+ billion, with only 200 billion of that specifically for OIF, OEF. Right now apart from OIF and OEF we're spending billions on another kind of war that goes on all day every day. And when we withdraw from OIF and OEF, the war industry will churn away merrily, employing millions of Americans. Everyone gets spun up about how much we spend now; look at how much we were spending before, if you can. Its layered. And it does not include 2nd or 3rd order industries (like taco bell) that would lose a lot of business. The 1 trillion dollars is just OIF/OEF, and does not include NDB, or any of the other costs necessary to support the NDB by other agencies.

" Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes … known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.… No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." - James Madison

As long as we have standing armies, we are in the war business, and its been that way for over a hundred years. Ben was right, and so was James. Instead of abandoning our war industry, we've so thoroughly embraced it that it affects every fiber of our economy.

[teamnelson]

TN,

I think you are confusing the total defense budget spending with spending to support the war. If the war ended, it would safe the tax payers about $140 billion a year. The total annual defense budget is around $700 billion. The industries and business that support the balance ($530 billion) would continue to exsisit in peace time.

C4, the NDB only exists for the contingencies of war, training & equipping warriors, developing material to support it. I understood you and Dee to be in favor of abolishing even those activities ran on the NDB.

[Dee]

The Romans said if you want peace prepare for war. While I agree with that theology, I would point out that Rome got their army together and couldn't resist using it. The rest is the history of Rome.
When the terrorist attacked us on 911, there is no doubt that they trained in Afghanistan, BUT! Were financed by Saudi Arabians, and were Saudi Arabians themselves. Iraq, in no way was in the mix, other than as cheerleaders. Not financially, and certainly not militarily. But they were FURTHER INVADED, justifying the move thru smoke and mirrors, and plain deceit. This caused the "war machine" to further grow, expending MORE AMERICAN LIVES, and further BANKRUPTING OUR ECONOMY.
Unless attacked, there is no justification for war EVER.
Kuwait started the war with Iraq, by stealing oil. Iraq invaded Kuwait, just like we invaded Iraq. Iraq had a reason to invade Kuwait. We did not have a good reason to jump in. Kuwait does not even pay for this protection, nor does Saudi Arabia. We The People are paying for it in American blood.
You blatantly pointed the ADVANTAGES OF THESE WARS making them appear a good thing by giving examples of the rewards of the "war machine", allow corporations and families to prosper and enjoy luxuries while our service men CONTINUE to die for a cause that wasn't and isn't, OURS.
No one mocked your service, but you certainly made light of my son's and other's son's sacrifices by saying what you did about the GOOD DONE BY THE "WAR MACHINE" in allowing families to eat in restaurants and enjoy other luxuries provided by the "war machine" TAX DOLLAR.
I respect EVERYONES military service, but it doesn't necessarily make them any wiser. McCain is a perfect example.
I REPEAT! The only people benefiting from the "war machine" are government contractors and their employees. The foot soldier on the front lines is not profiting, they are PAYING. The tax payer is not profiting they are PAYING. The economy is not profiting it is PAYING. All this will come to a screeching screaming halt when it finally reaches it's limit. Then EVERYONE WILL PAY, and we as a nation will be dropped like a bad habit when the money runs out. WAIT! The money has already ran out.
This "war machine" you speak of is running on credit. And for what? A religion of people that want nothing less than our own complete destruction.

[teamnelson]

You blatantly pointed the ADVANTAGES OF THESE WARS making them appear a good thing by giving examples of the rewards of the "war machine", allow corporations and families to prosper and enjoy luxuries while our service men CONTINUE to die for a cause that wasn't and isn't, OURS.
No one mocked your service, but you certainly made light of my son's and other's son's sacrifices by saying what you did about the GOOD DONE BY THE "WAR MACHINE" in allowing families to eat in restaurants and enjoy other luxuries provided by the "war machine" TAX DOLLAR.
I respect EVERYONES military service, but it doesn't necessarily make them any wiser. McCain is a perfect example.
I REPEAT! The only people benefiting from the "war machine" are government contractors and their employees. The foot soldier on the front lines is not profiting, they are PAYING. The tax payer is not profiting they are PAYING. The economy is not profiting it is PAYING. All this will come to a screeching screaming halt when it finally reaches it's limit. Then EVERYONE WILL PAY, and we as a nation will be dropped like a bad habit when the money runs out. WAIT! The money has already ran out.
This "war machine" you speak of is running on credit. And for what? A religion of people that want nothing less than our own complete destruction.

You are correct, your son and I, our dead and wounded friends, are not profiting from this war. You continue to assume that my statements are prescriptive, when in fact they are descriptive. That millions of Americans enjoy the luxury of employment because of the industry of war is a fact. We don't have to like it, and its a shame that its reached that point. However, it has. Accept it, so you can move from where we are to where we need to be. We can't go back, and we can't just throw the on/off switch today.

I didn't support a bailout, but there are a few thousand GM employees working that might not have without it. Again, that's descriptive. I would never say that bailouts are the way to go because they have jobs - that's prescriptive. We should've let them fail, but that would have meant a few more thousand out of work, foreclosures and bankruptcies. And that's just one rather large company in an industry that is still going on. There are other car companies, and people are still buying cars.

What I think your proposing, not specifically but passionately, is to remove an entire industry, which means that there is no "free market" as C4 suggests to absorb the unemployed. Without a war industry, no one wants tanks, planes, rifles, MREs, uniforms, etc. So its not a simple matter of capitalism absorbing a failed company. And given the size of the industry ($700 Billion a year), assuming you kept a national guard or militia model, you're still putting a lot of people on the streets unemployed.

So what's your alternative industry? I threw up Homeland Security, but as you noted, Rome couldn't have an army and not use it.

Somewhere there is a guy getting paid to make hearing aids for me because I was hit by a catastrophic IED while travelling from patrol base to patrol base on the front lines (I was with Infantry). I wish to God he didn't have a job, and he might wish he didn't have to do that job, but I won't begrudge him his paycheck.

[Cabin4]

TN,

I think you are confusing the total defense budget spending with spending to support the war. If the war ended, it would safe the tax payers about $140 billion a year. The total annual defense budget is around $700 billion. The industries and business that support the balance ($530 billion) would continue to exsisit in peace time.

C4, the NDB only exists for the contingencies of war, training & equipping warriors, developing material to support it. I understood you and Dee to be in favor of abolishing even those activities ran on the NDB.

I do to some degree, but I'm also realistic that things need to happen one step at a time.

First: Get us out of Iraq & Afgan. $140 billion annual savings.
Second: Pull our troops out of all other foriegn deployments: $$ savings TBD

I don't beleive our military should be abolished. But it should be reshaped to a peace time force.

[teamnelson]

So let's work on that $140 Billion dollar number. How much of that translates to work for Americans, either directly or indirectly? Directly is a GS or Contractor. Indirectly is the guy who owns the Subway across the street from the deployment center in Texas. Even the ones who were in business prior to 2001 have expanded business to accomodate the need. So we're going to ramp them down, and basically let go others. Maybe a good model for thinking is imagine a $140 Billion niche company going out of business.