Author Topic: Seeking Advice - Woods Handi for me and my son (Read 907 times)

Jon in TN · « **on:** December 18, 2009, 03:46:44 AM »

Before next deer season, I want to have a dedicated set up for me and my son to hunt the thicker stuff in our woods. Shots could be up to 75 yards, there's allot of thin underbrush, and because of his age (11 next year) we will be hunting from the ground. With this being said; the chances of the bullet striking small twigs before reaching it's target are great, but it's not so thick you can't see through it. I like using a scope, so I would rather have something other than iron sights..

I'm thinking the 45-70 or

for me and either a 30-30 or 44 mag or maybe 357 max/mag for him... Anyway, if you guys have a Handi & scope/sight set up that works well in these conditions. I'd love to hear about it or see it..

Thanks,

Jon

Datil · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2009, 03:57:37 AM »

I would say any you would be fine MHO. I have three of the four set up with scopes
I would stay with about 4 power. Datil

Spanky · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:09:26 AM »

I'd say 44mag would be ideal for either of you. At the ranges you're talking about ghost ring sights would be nice for getting on target fast.
There is certainly nothing wrong with the 45-70 but at close up ranges it won't kill 'em any deader than the 44 mag. If you handload you can load up some heavy loads for the 44 that will really penetrate.
Truth is you can't go wrong with any of them. ( I have them all) but for close in work the 44 really shines.

Spanky

Jon in TN · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:20:25 AM »

I was thinking a pistol cartridge for him and rifle for me since there could be a long shot going in or coming out of the thicker stuff... But I want a round that will cut through as well when we get in it..

Spanky · « **Reply #4 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:45:30 AM »

You... 45-70
Him... 44mag

No round will really cut through brush... they will all deflect to some point.

Spanky

geezer56 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:48:35 AM »

A 45-70 works great in the thickets I hunt here in NC and SC. I've bobbed the barrel to 18" and use a Redfield 4X scope on mine. You are on the right track with that combo, it is a hammer out to 150 yds or so. The 44 mag or 45 LC would be great for the kid, or a 30-30. My 13 yr old used a 7.62X39 to get 2 last year, it works well. The 30-30 with the 125 gr managed recoil loads is about the same animal as a 7.62. Even the 357 mag would do, with proper bullet selection. The great thing about these guns is that you really can't go too far wrong with any of them. Try one, if it doesn't work, you can always trade or sell the barrel and get something else to try til you hit the right combo. About all you can lose on the deal is shipping cost.

mannyrock · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2009, 05:06:55 AM »

The .44 mag is perfect for your son. A long shot going in? The .44 mag is good to 125 or 150 yards.

If you haven't already shot a .45-70, then I would not buy one for yourself until you have fired a box or two through a friends rifle at the range. You may find that you really don't like it.

At the short distances you are talking about, and out to 200 yards, the .30-30 is MORE than enough to kill any deer, and it has a flatter trajectory and much less recoil than the .45-70.

The concept that you are going to get a big bore cartridge to break through twigs or brush and continue in a straight line is simply false. Time and time again, tests have been set up and published in the big shooting magazines, showing that all bullets deflect when they hit brush. (Most of the articles are entitled something like, "Breaking the Brush-Buster Myth."

No ammunition makers advertise their cartridges as being able to "cut through brush." Even those that make the big bores. Why? Because it isn't true.

If you will be hunting from stands, then you will have lots of time pre-season to simply clear out pockets of brush around the stand, creating several shooting lanes or shooting pockets in the brush. That's the right way to do it.

It would be really terrible for your son to try to shoot through brush, and badly wound (and lose) his first deer. Tragic.

Also, at the distances you are talking about, I would keep the scope at 3 power.

Just my thoughts,

Mannyrock

Swampman · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2009, 05:10:37 AM »

I use my scope to fing holes in the brush. Personally I think I'd get the .30-30 and a .45-70.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 18, 2009, 06:06:25 AM »

My 45 Colt Carbine with the factory rear iron and an orange firesight in the front comes up nicely and is pretty accurate. I hunt very thick woods also. It's another good choice although it costs more because of the fancy stocks.

kng · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2009, 06:42:40 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on December 18, 2009, 05:06:55 AM

If you haven't already shot a .45-70, then I would not buy one for yourself until you have fired a box or two through a friends rifle at the range. You may find that you really don't like it.

Are you implying that the recoil is why he won't like it? I've never shot one, but it is next on my wish list...I think.

Spanky · « **Reply #10 on:** December 18, 2009, 06:51:26 AM »

Quote from: kng on December 18, 2009, 06:42:40 AM

Quote from: mannyrock on December 18, 2009, 05:06:55 AM

If you haven't already shot a .45-70, then I would not buy one for yourself until you have fired a box or two through a friends rifle at the range. You may find that you really don't like it.

Are you implying that the recoil is why he won't like it? I've never shot one, but it is next on my wish list...I think.

Recoil with trapdoor loads is very mild. Recoil with Ruger loads will hammer you. Choose what works best for you.

You don't really need to punish yourself though... trapdoor loads will kill just about anything that walks.

Spanky

rex6666 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:13:50 AM »

The Rem. 405s are not bad at all in the 45/70
the Hornady 325 plastic tip will get your attention.
I would go with the 45/70 and 44mag

Jon in TN · « **Reply #12 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:22:24 AM »

I'm not saying that I'll be shooting through brush intentionaly, but I would think these larger grain bullets would stay on course better than his 223 or my 243 & 7-08 would..... And the optics would be set up for short range/quicker pick up as well. This has got to signifacanty increase our killing abilities and we could use our other barrels/guns for farm hunting.

Jon

Spanky · « **Reply #13 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:28:32 AM »

I still say give some thought to a good set of ghost ring sites. Very quick on target.

Spanky

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:40:45 AM »

45-70 and the 30-30 have been doing it for a lot of years, and you can't go wrong with that combo, and I know what you are talking about with the brush.

What may look like a completely open lane at dawn or dusk may have all kinds of small thin stick ups and small bushes, that would deflect a tiny fast round where a big heavy bullet won't be effected at all.

That's where those slower heavy bullets shine, and why they call them brush guns.

JerryKo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:46:19 AM »

On bullet deflection:
My son missed his first Buck this year because of an unseen 1/3" green branch. The shot was between 40 and 50 yds and the branch was about midway. A 160gr FTX bullet at around 2250 fps deflected enough to miss the four point. Lesson learned here.

All bullets will deflect, but a heavy bullet will deflect less. Think bowling with a bowling vs with a golf ball.

Jerry

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2009, 07:46:43 AM »

If 75 yards is going to be the longest shot..pick up a holo sight for him..You won't have to worry about eye relief for 1 and it will teach him to shoot with both eyes open,and give him a lighted reticule to aim with..
Next..whatever rifle you get for him..get it fitted for him..Unless he is an extremely large 11 year old..he won't need an adult length of pull..

Cartridge selection based on brush deflection is not a wise idea. Even the very best and biggest caliber will be deflected..and teaching a child to try to shoot thru the brush at a animal..is not the proper thing to do..As what has been said..clear shooting lanes ahead of time..mark the yardage for him and yourself..and teach him to make 1 shot count..by picking the best shot when the animal is in the clearing..

That said..at 75yards ..you won't need a-lot of killing power..223...30-30..357...44mag...45LC..all will cleanly take whitetail when shot in the proper spot..Nothing wrong with the bigger calibers..but at spitting distances..it's over kill..If he already has a 223...get some loads with the Nosler Partitions..or pick up a box of the Federal Fusion ammo..and let him practice shooting from a seated ground position..If he can't be accurate with it..then relying on a cartridges brush bucking capability is just plain wrong..He needs to know what is in front of him..before he shoots..and pick his shot carefully when the animal is in the clear..

Tons of whitetail has been harvested here in Missouri with them on the Youth hunts..I'm not saying you shouldn't get one of the bigger calibers for yourself or him if you have a mind to...but..for him at your stated range..they just aren't needed..

Mac

springfling · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2009, 08:14:42 AM »

I am with spanky and the others on the 44mag. It will be all you ever need. Consider this, I shoot a sabot 44mag bullet in my muzzle loader, last year I shot a doe that turned and ran 30 yards down the hill and piled. Further examination revealed that it blowed the top of her heart up. There is no doubt on the bullets performance. Get a 3X9 scope and keep it on the lowest setting for heavy cover. When your walking in and out you can crank up the power for those longer shots. Just my 2 cents.

Jon in TN · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2009, 08:49:15 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on December 18, 2009, 07:46:43 AM

Cartridge selection based on brush deflection is not a wise idea. Even the very best and biggest caliber will be deflected..and teaching a child to try to shoot thru the brush at a animal..is not the proper thing to do..As what has been said..clear shooting lanes ahead of time..mark the yardage for him and yourself..and teach him to make 1 shot count..by picking the best shot when the animal is in the clearing..

I'm not teaching him to blow through the twigs and sticks, but he's going to be 11. It's hard enough for an experienced adult to keep it together and account for every little variable when a big buck walks out into that small opening.

He's being brought up using a compact Handi, so I don't think I could pound "making one shot count" into his head any harder. I'm just looking for the best tool for this situation.

OBXPilgrim · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2009, 08:58:32 AM »

You never say whether or not if you reload. If so, let me put my plug in for what I see as the best choice due to the ability to use common componenets.

44 Mag and 444 Marlin. 444 can be loaded to cover anything the trapdoor loads can do (and more), plus, with cast bullets in the 250-300gr range you may be able to use the same bullet. Most everyone has read about someone that's used a .44 jacketed bullet that was made for a 44 mag being used in a 444 and blowing up & maybe read about some of the heavy jacket 444 bullets loaded into 44 mag & getting do expansion. Use a 15-12BHN cast bullet in both and you'll not have the blowup issue.

Besides, if the full 44 loads are too much for your boy, you could tone them down some until he gets bigger.

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2009, 09:01:14 AM »

A 30-30 for each of you,with a fixed power shotgun scope such as the Simmons with the pro diamond reticle and you should be good to go.

mannyrock · « **Reply #21 on:** December 18, 2009, 09:09:48 AM »

Wow Jon! I'm betting that now, you wish you had never asked. :-)

OK, in summary,

.44 mag for your son.

.30-30 or a .45-70 for you, whichever you like best, it ain't gonna make much difference. :-) Sounds like you want a .45-70, so go for it.

Manny

Hunter6657 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 18, 2009, 09:40:21 AM »

Get a god scope on it for low light conditions very ealry in the morning or late in the evening. It will extend your last minute shooting time 30 minutes.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #23 on:** December 18, 2009, 11:10:15 AM »

I hunt in thick brush and shorter ranges all the time, 100 yards is a long shot most of the time. The .357mag/max and the .45-70 are my go to guns and they have never let me down. The .357 wears a BSA catseye 2.5x7 heavy reticle scope the .45-70 has peeps on it with a large twilight insert, if it hard to see I take out the insert and it's a ghost ring. I use 180gr WFPGC hardcast in the .357 @2000FPS and 405gr hardcast in the gov @ 1200 to 1500 FPS. Works for me here in Kentucky.

Jon in TN · « **Reply #24 on:** December 18, 2009, 02:12:10 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on December 18, 2009, 09:09:48 AM

Wow Jon! I'm betting that now, you wish you had never asked. :-)

No, I really appreciate EVERYONE who has taken the time to reply! There's many more years of experience spoken in this little thread than I could find anywhere else....

Plainsman · « **Reply #25 on:** December 18, 2009, 03:11:03 PM »

I like to keep things simple and that means keeping reloading components to a minimum a minimum as well! I have Marlin lever actions in .44magnum and .444Marlin and would recommend those two cartridges for your Handi's. The .44 can be dowloaded to light special loads and up to the maximum magnum loads for your son or yourself for that matter. Then the .444 can be used in a similar fashion! You can load it down for casual shooting and up for the biggest of game if you should ever decide to head out of state to hunt something bigger.

My Marlins both like Hornady 265gr bullets for accuracy and I recommend them. I also cast for inexpensive shooting which helps keep one familiar with the rifles!

Good luck with your choices!

watkibe · « **Reply #26 on:** December 18, 2009, 03:26:06 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on December 18, 2009, 05:06:55 AM

...The concept that you are going to get a big bore cartridge to break through twigs or brush and continue in a straight line is simply false. Time and time again, tests have been set up and published in the big shooting magazines, showing that all bullets deflect when they hit brush. (Most of the articles are entitled something like, "Breaking the Brush-Buster Myth." through brush."...It would be really terrible for your son to try to shoot through brush, and badly wound (and lose) his first deer. Tragic.

The best of the "Breaking the Brush-Buster Myth" articles that I ever read was by Mike Venturino, IIRC. He also found out that the closer to the muzzle the brush is, the greater the deflection. and the closer to the target the brush is, the less deflection you get. You might be able to successfully shoot through brush, if the deer was standing right behind a bush, but not if you are standing right behind one.
I lost my first deer after wounding it, and 25 years later it still bothers me when I think about it. It was one of only two that I have ever lost, and you are right, both times were tragic. I still feel guilty sometimes about it. Now, I only takes shots that I KNOW I can make; any doubt, I don't shoot.