Author Topic: Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 or 444?  (Read 2110 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RIFLE MAN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 or 444?
« on: October 24, 2003, 07:29:52 PM »
Friends,
Which of the following Winchester model 94 "Big Bores" is the better game getter, or just better all around, whether you reload or use factory ammunition: .375 or .444? Please expound on your answer.

Much appreciation,
Rifle Man
"Smile, Shake a hand, and be a friend."

Offline 340wby

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2003, 05:37:44 AM »
444 no question
the 444 marlin has greater bullet weight, cross sectional area, energy and better choices as to bullets available, IVE used both, theres no contest, the 444 hits harder!!!

read these
http://www.chuckhawks.com/375winchester.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/444Marlin.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/444Outfitter.htm


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/44

notice is easy to exceed 3000ft lbs of energy and 265 grains of bullet in a 444 but you cant do close to that power in a 375 win, remember the 375 win is basically a 30-30 case necked up to 375 cal. the 444 is the 44 mag case lengthened 1" the 375 win is designed for 100yard- 200 yard deer hunting, the 444 marlin easily handles ELK and MOOSE at similar distances, yes both work well, but the marlin 444 has a very noticable increase in power!!

Offline RIFLE MAN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2003, 05:59:28 AM »
Thanks 340 Wby, that is VERY interesting reading! Seems the .444 Marlin cartridge has a lot of potential if loaded correctly.

Regards,
Rifle man
"Smile, Shake a hand, and be a friend."

Offline 340wby

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2003, 08:30:06 AM »
RIFLE MAN

I own an shoot several lever action rifles , and I am forced to point out a few things,
(1)the winchester 94 big bore  is not the best choice in powerful lever acction rifles
 there are a few other choices Ive found that make much better and more powerful hunting rifles
(the BROWNING BLR and MARLIN 45/70 or 450 marlin ) come to mind instantly
look the 375 winchester has a 250 grain bullet at about 1900fps
the 444 marlins best factory load is a 265 grain bullet at about 2250fps
the BLR can be purchased in 358 winchester (wich shoots flatter and has more power at 200 yards than the 444 marlin, and with which Ive seen many ELK killed)
the BLR is also avaiable in
30/06
300 win mag
450 marlin

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=006
load that 300 win mag with 200 grain bullets and it shoots flatter and hits harder than almost any other choice over 200 yards
that BLR in 450 marlin throws a 350 grain bullet at 2000fps

things to read carefully

 http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/300Win_Mag.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/358Win.htm

my late ELK HUNTING partner killed over a dozen ELK in 30 years with a 358 win, and at ranges from 20 feet to 250 yards , I KNOW from watching him consitantly KILL ELK that its a good choice! I used to own a 444 marlin, the 45/70 marlin I replaced it with was a much more powerful rifle , safe handloads allow a 400 grain cast bullet to be pushed to 1750 fps making it by far the harder hitting of the two rifles

Offline Graycg

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (74)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2003, 08:21:52 AM »
I like and have both, but my 375 is on a Ruger number 3 not a lever gun.  My choice would also be 444 hands down, but not so much for perfomance on game, but because of bullet selection, there are so many more moulds and commercial bullets available for the 444 and very few suitable for the 375.   Both will hammer Bambi and black bears and pigs to any range that you can hit them too.

regards,
 Graycg
"Secretly you want me on that wall; you need me on that wall"  
 Colonel Nathan Jessup

Offline Blackhawk44

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 981
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2003, 12:10:54 PM »
Go back and re-read 340wby again.  If that is not enough and you absolutely have to have a straight case, the Browning BLR comes in .450 Marlin also.  He is right though, the .358 BLR has it all over both rounds, and I own and use the .444 and 45-70's.  It has the range, the bullets (even pistol bullets to plink and chase rabbits), cheap, easy to find, or make, brass and a rifle that is just as easy to carry and far easier to operate from the shoulder.  With the box magazine, you are not limited to flat point bullets either.  Borrow a Speer or Hornady manual and just look at the difference in trajectories out to 200yds.  I have 8 tube fed levers, 3 BLR's and a Win '95 and the '94 action (have had several) is the only one that is truly a b...bummer  to try and operate from the shoulder.

Offline 340wby

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2003, 02:24:53 PM »
I just have to say this, after watching and taking notes,over 33 years of ELK hunting, and watching my late hunting partner drop well over a dozen ELK, with his 358 win ,browning BLR, I doubt youll find a better matched combo of power range and easy handling that the BLR in the 358 win
his load of 45 grains of IMR 4064 and a 250 grain speer bullet makes an excellent timber ELK rifle,If you feel you need more range... the BLR comes in 30/06 and 300 win mag, want more close range power, buy a BLR in 450 marlin, but think carefully, the 358 BLR easily kills ELK out to 250 yards, uses a short handy action, can ure re-formed 308 winchester brass thats dirt cheap, and when sighted  in 3.5" high at 100 yards is about dead on at 200 yards and 11" low at 300 yards
 now for hunting the timber where 200 yard shots are very rare, youll find it almost ideal. recoil is about like a comon 30/06 and on paper the power is also similar but the real world results with those 250 grain bullets, are noticably better than the 150-165 grain bullets I see some 30/06 and 308 win  users getting

Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
Which one is better
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2003, 04:13:09 AM »
Rifle Man:  I would opt for the Triple 4.  One of the gun writers penned, when the 450 Marlin first came out, that if you had a 444 or a 45/70 you shouldn't consider getting rid of either in favor of the 450 because nothing that would get hit by either of the 3 calibers would know the difference.  The ballistics that 340wby provided for the 450 are matched or bettered in handloads in the the 444.  

The main problem with the factory 444 loads today is that they are a bit on the mild side in terms of bullet weight offerings.  There are some awesome bullets available for the Triple 4 that will take anything on the face of the earth.  There are also commercial loads available for the 444 that far exceed the Remington 240 gn load.  Cor-Bon, for example,  advertises its 265-270 grain offering as capable of taking the African Big Five, from a Contender, so it shouldn't have any problem with North American game.  And, there are others..  One interesting notion about ballistic profiles is this - a 300 grain 444 bullet (.430 dia) has much greater penetrability and drive than a 300 grain 45-70/450 Marlin bullet (.458 dia)  when driven at the same velocities.   Beartooth Bullets produces 410 grain cast gas check bullets that are absolute monsters.  Some of the other folks on these forums cast out their own Triple 4 bullets that are incredibly awesome.  It seems the 444 really starts performing as a big game cartridge when you start loading in the heavies at over 300 grains.  That's when the fun starts, but to each his own..  

Now, if my Black Shadow in 444 would just smooth out.............. Mikey.

Offline Swany

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2003, 10:04:10 AM »
Here I thought they were all good, .375 the 38-55 on steroids, the 444 the 44mag on steroids, the .450  the factory ammo shooters 45-70. Don't think I would favor any of the above over any listed including the browning cartridges mentioned. The .450 marlin, just a factory loaded 45-70 that is loaded up to it's potential, that way the factory can produce something that non-reloaders can have that they don't have to say don't use this in a 73 trapdoor. None of the rounds mentioned would I hesitate to take game up to and including moose, and large bear with the proper bullet.
Take care and have fun. Swany

Offline txpete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Gender: Male
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2003, 01:50:15 PM »
paco kelly did a write up on the "bone crusher" 375 win. good reading and for a handloader can give the trip 4 a run for its money.
pete

Offline Triple4

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2003, 06:44:15 PM »
Sorry but the 375 falls several feet short even if you handload vs a 444 One of my pet loads in a Marlin Cowboy 38-55 is a 280gr LFNGC .380 that will almost make 2000fps, Now my pet load for one of my 444's is a 290grLFNGC.432 at over 2300fps, that big bullet just hits a lot harder even at the same velocity.

Offline carolcann

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2003, 05:18:43 AM »
I have a .375 94BB, and it is MUCH less punishing to shoot than my .444! And I have never had to track any deer I shot with it!

One big MI swamp buck was absolutely knocked off his feet sideways at 160 paces. All four hoofs left the ground and he hit ribs-down! I swear the smack was louder than the shot!

The 444 Marlin is no slouch, but recoil is up there, and as arthritis runs in my family, I don't use it much anymore.

I am currently searching for a Contender barrel in .375Win!

Offline Enforcer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 121
375-444
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2003, 04:09:40 PM »
Wow Triple 4 gives some smoking ballistics for both the 375Win and 444 Marlin.Now I don't mess with the 444 Marlin.I choose the 405Win or 416/284 McPherson over it handsdown.We have been getting 2150fps with a 260gr Nosler out of the 22in Savage M99A and Ruger #3 in 375Win.And all the handloading we have done for the 444 Marlin has yielded  around 2150fps with 300gr bullet out of 22in Marlin.

So you are giving up diameter to the 444 Marlin(.429) verus the 375Win(.375-.379).But you are getting a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient with the 375Win,plus less recoil.Is the 444 Marlin stronger than the 375Win,surely.Is it better for all around hunting probably not.

375Win 260gr Nosler  2150fps-2668fpe,momentum:79,KO:30
444Mar 300gr Buffalo 2150fps-3078fpe,momentum:92,KO:39

Heres why i choose the 416/284Mc and 405win over the 444 Marlin.

416/284 300gr 2500fps-4162fpe,mom:107,KO:44
405Win   300gr 2450fps-4000fpe,mom:105,KO:43(my handload)
To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best!

Offline Triple4

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2003, 08:04:26 PM »
Smoking not really heres smoking:

Cartridge: 444 Marlin
Bullet Weight: 280 grains
Date: 2001-03-08
Username: Marshall Stanton
Bullet Type: Cast
Bullet Manufacturer: Beartooth
Nose Profile: WFN
Base: GC
Bullet Dia. .432 grains
BHN: 21
Powder: RL-7
Charge Weight: 54.0 grains
Primer: WLPP
Brass: Remington
Trim Length: 2.215"
C.O.L.: 2.510"
Velocity: 2434 fps
Extreme Spread: 11 fps
Accuracy: 1.22"/100 yds
Temperature: 22 degrees F
Pressure: Top
Comments:
This tested in Marlin .444P Outfitter for accuracy and velocity. A very efficient lighter weight bullet for the .444


Cartridge: 444 Marlin
Bullet Weight: 290 grains
Date: 2001-03-08
Username: Marshall Stanton
Bullet Type: Cast
Bullet Manufacturer: Beartooth
Nose Profile: LFN
Base: GC
Bullet Dia. .432 grains
BHN: 21
Powder: RL-7
Charge Weight: 53.0 grains
Primer: WLRP
Brass: Remington
Trim Length: 2.215"
C.O.L.: 2.555""
Velocity: 2364 fps
Extreme Spread: 7.92 fps
Accuracy: 1.266"/100 yds
Temperature: 34 degrees F
Pressure: Top
Comments:
This velocity out of a Marlin .444P Outfitter with the ported barrel and tested with Ashley sights, very accurate and very effective
 
and thats with a 18.5 barrel.
So Mr Enforcer what can you do with a Marlin in 375? without the spitzers
and rotary mags? as for the 405 it can't do nothing a 444 can't do and a 444 can do it in a Marlin.

Offline Enforcer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 121
375Win
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2003, 01:32:45 PM »
Thats a fair question.With a Marlin or Winchester M94 in 375Win.

200gr Sierra 38.0grs H4198 for 2390fps-2536fpe
220gr Hornady 39.0grs RL-7 for 2325fps-2640fpe

200gr Hornady 39.0grs AA2015 for 2396fps-2549fpe(compressed)
220gr Hornady 41.0grs AA2015 for 2335fps-2662fpe(compressed)
255gr BarnesO 34.0grs AA2015 for 2050fps-2380fpe(compressed)

I don't fault the 375Win for coming in superior rifles to the 444 Marlin.The Ruger #3 and Savage M99A have longer barrels(22in versus most 20in),handle higher pressures(65,000psi+ versus 52,000cup),and use spitzer bullets for better down range ballistics and accuracy.Also the Savage and Ruger #3 allow use of COL of up to 2.90 versus the 2.56 of the Winchester and Marlin.

As far as the 444 Marlin versus the 405Win.The 444 Marlin has a big advantage with so many bullet weights and styles available for it.But make no mistake about one thing.The 405Win holds more powder than even the 450 Marlin or  the 45/70,no matter the little 444 Marlin.I load 58.5grs of IMR3031 in my Win M1895 in 405Win.That is way out of the 444 Marlins league.When more bullet weights become available for the 405Win it will again shine.It will ALWAYS out do the 444 Marlin with same weight bullets.The reason is simple it holds more powder and thats a fact!!!
To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best!

Offline Enforcer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 121
358-348-444
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2003, 08:14:52 AM »
As far as the comparing the 358Win(as many made mention of)or even the 348win to the 444 Marlin.You have closed the gap even further.As both of them are superior to the 375win and in many respects also the 444 Marlin.

358Win 200gr 2700fps-3236fpe,Momentum:77,KO:27
348Win 200gr 2560fps-2909fpe,Mom:73,KO:25

358Win 250gr 2425fps-3255fpe,Mom:86,KO:30
348Win 250gr 2350fps-3060fpe,Mom:83,KO:29

358Win 300gr 2250fps-3371fpe,Mom:96,KO:34

Loads chronoed at 15ft,out of Win M88 and Savage M99F  in 358Win with 22in and Win M71 in 348Win with 24in.Loads taken and or based from Barnes and Conley.Those are numbers that should be tough for the 444 Marlin to beat.Only the most brave or foolish could,as they both hold more powder than the 444 Marlin.

For all but the largest game at close distances the 348Win or 358Win will go step for step with the 444 Marlin up to and including elk,red deer and moose.For deer sized game and such at longer distances say 150yds or more the 348Win and 358win have an advantage over the 444 Marlin.They are flatter shooting,and have less recoil for better accuracy(for most people).They also cut the air better(smaller diameter) than the 444 Marlin and in the case of the 358Win with spitzers,alot better.That allows for much better down range ballistics and accuracy.They do however give up greater diameter to the 444 Marlin.On large and dangerous game that could make a difference.Since not only does the 444 Marlin have greater diameter for larger entry and exit wounds.But it also will carry more energy and hence a better Taylor KO because of its larger diameter(even with same weight bullets,driven at same velocities).
To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best!

Offline Triple4

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2003, 11:06:36 AM »
You seem to think so little of the 444 after all it's just a 44Mag thats streched..........well if thats all it is then all your paper BS about the 405  don't mean nothing, that is if you look at  this:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5&Year=all

 and look what the 44Mag and the 340gr LFN did compared to the 405 and thats just a little old pistol round out of maybe a 20" barrel, I can see why the 405 needs a 28" barrel and more powder.

Offline Enforcer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 121
444-405
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2003, 06:43:56 PM »
That is also a form of paper BS also.That test which I have already seen many,many times simply shows that slower bullets(usally 1500fps or less)actually penetrates further than ones going much faster.

The bottom line is just this.The 405Win holds more powder than the 444 Marlin,450Marlin and 45/70.Does that mean it will out penetrate those others?Tests say no.So their you go,faster doesn't mean deeper.

The comment that it needs more powder and a longer barrel to equal the lowly 44Rem Mag or 444 Marlin is half true.It surely does hold more powder than them,but that is not a fault.The longer barrel helps mine to get into another zone(as far as velocity goes).With equal length barrels and same weight bullets it will still out do the 444 Marlin(when properly handloaded) in velocity.

Maybe it lacks their penetration abilities.Maybe its lacks their bullet variety.Maybe it lacks their bullet diameter.

What it doesn't lack is a CL of 2.58.What it doesn't lack is a COL of 3.18.What it doesn't lack is the ability to hold almost 60.0grs of IMR 3031 behind a 300gr SP.What it did have was the backing of one of the greatest hunters of all time,Teddy himself.

I'm not trying to bust on the 444Marlin.I had one at one time.It is a fine round and certainly has many fine qualities.For up close stopping of large and or dangerous game it out shines either the 375Win,348Win,356Win,358Win and 405Win.

In Feb.I head to Africa(Burkina Faso)and my 405Win will make the trip with me.So it will have a chance to back up all my bragging about it.Thats how much faith I have in it and its abilities.No paper BS over there.Just you,your rifle and the beast.
To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best!

Offline 340wby

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Which One Is The Better Game Getter...375 o
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2003, 03:21:17 AM »
(personal opinion RANT!)
I own several rifles of reasonably heavy caliber,Ive killed a large number of game from deer, hogs, to elk , even a few wild steers weighing over 1500 lbs during 35 plus years of hunting, while theres guys with more  and less experiance , I always take a great deal of time to look over the results of shots, Ive come to the conclusion that bullet weight,sectional density,jacket construction and SHOT PLACEMENT are more important the pushing the velocity for an extra few fps. every cartridge listed above will kill game if the shots placed correctly, that does not make any of them "ideal" the "ideal " cartridge must be able to drive a bullet completely thru the game in a strait line from any angle and from any reasonable range that its likely to be used at even if major bones are hit and still exit without vering from the intended path. only then can the hunter be sure that the rifle will always be capable of delivering a fatal blow on the first shot if the hunter does his part (shot placement, and getting in reasonably close for accurate target aquirement)
since the bullet does 100% of the damage to the target, it seems foolish to me that we spend so much time argueing about rifles, and spend so little time by comparison on bullet construction, and precise bullet placement. personally Ive found that bullets that weight at least 200-300 grains and have at least a .260-.280+ sectional density (the higher the better) with thick jacket construction that are used within ranges that allow  precise bullet placement, and that are pushed to velocities resulting in at least 1800fps ON IMPACT will get the job done correctly on most game.
you can pick the rifle or cartridge of your choice if those guide lines are used and youll seldom have any problems.
put another way,if your bullets don,t expand and exit from any angle and range your hunting from on the game you hunt the combo in use is not "ideal" even if 99% of the game shot dies,because almost any game can be killed with almost any centerfire rifle, that alone does not make the choice appropriate.
 if youve read my screen name youll see my choice for 80% of my hunting, does that make my choice the only correct one, of course not! but I think youll find that similar cartriges like the  300mags,338 win, 375 H&H will cover a very wide range of game if the correct bullets are used in a rifle firing those cartridges in the hands of a careful hunter, and when you don,t follow those guide lines your limiting the usefulness of your choice due to range,or more limited target angles to achive a fatal first shot

Offline Enforcer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 121
OK
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2003, 08:23:36 AM »
Good post,point taken.Just for the record I have hunted and taken game all over the U.S.,India,South America,Mexico,Canada,Italy and go to Africa in 3 months.I was born in Colorado,grew up mostly in Md.,and Va.But I also lived in Italy for 2yrs(my fathers family still lives there), India for 2yrs and Canada for 2yrs.I just moved to Mexico,but have been staying in Brazil.I just returned to Pa. for the closing on our home we sold.So as far as hunting goes(diffferent animals,different countries),I'm as worldly as they come.The stories my Win M88 in 284Win and Win M1895 in 303 British could tell,if they could speak.Enforcer
To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best!