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Offline Skunk

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Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« on: December 15, 2009, 08:37:40 AM »
I have a mixed bag of feelings pertaining to felons not being allowed to own firearms. I can see banning felons whose crimes involved using a firearm while committing the felony, however, I'm not so sure about felons who committed crimes that did not involve a gun. I mean really, how much safer do you folks feel knowing that Martha Stuart can not legally own a firearm?

Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law

by Declan McCullagh, CBS News

December 14, 2009

It's common to hear about Second Amendment lawsuits dealing with gun rights. But nearly all state constitutions include similar legal protections, sometimes with language that is more emphatic than the wording in the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights.

Take the recent case involving a Michigan man named Ricky Lee Baldwin, convicted by a jury of assault with intent to commit murder and unlawful possession of a firearm during a felony. He allegedly shot his wife in the neck and right ear after she admitted to an affair; a local news report said the 51-year old woman survived.

Federal law, and many state statutes, prohibit previously convicted felons (a category that includes Baldwin) from possessing firearms. In last year's D.C. v. Heller opinion, the U.S. Supreme Court indicated, without explicitly stating, that such a prohibition complies with the Second Amendment.

But what about state constitutions? Michigan's constitution appears unambiguous: It says that "every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state."

As you can imagine, Baldwin raised that point in his appeal after entering a conditional guilty plea to the offense of possessing a firearm after previously being convicted of a felony. He argued that the felony-possesion state law violated the Michigan constitution. If that argument succeeded, he'd still to go prison -- but would be able to shave as much as 7 years off of a sentence that would otherwise run from 30 to 59 years.

Although the state constitution includes no exceptions or fine print when saying that "every person" enjoys the right to keep and bear arms, judges have narrowed the scope of that right over time. A 1931 state supreme court case, People v. Brown, upheld the conviction of a man convicted of carrying a billy club in an automobile, concluding: "The statute does not infringe upon the legitimate right of personal or public defense, but is within the reasonable and constitutional exercise of the police power of the state to curb crime."

And a 1980 case, Bay County Concealed Weapons Licensing Board v. Gasta, said the state could revoke its citizens' right to bear concealed arms if the local sheriff filed a complaint: "The existence of the Concealed Weapons Licensing Board reflects the State's legitimate interest in limiting public access to weapons suitable for criminal purposes and confirms the notion that the constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms is subject to a reasonable exercise of the police power."

Finally, a 1998 case, People v. Green, led to this conclusion about felons, guns, and the Michigan constitution: "A person's right to bear arms under (the Michigan constitution) is not absolute and is subject to the reasonable limitations set forth in (state law) as part of the state's police power."

You can guess what happened in the December 1 ruling from Michigan's court of appeals. The panel cited the previous cases and concluded that the law in question in the case against Baldwin was perfectly constitutional.

The point of this article isn't to say that the Michigan case is rightly or wrongly decided. (Though for non-violent felons like Martha Stewart, the question of lifetime disarmament is more open than you might suspect. C. Kevin Marshall, a former Bush Justice Department attorney who's of counsel to Jones Day in Washington, D.C., raised that argument in a law review article earlier this year titled "Why Can't Martha Stewart Have a Gun?")

Instead, the point is to offer a glimpse of how the legal system works in practice. When faced with a state constitution that says "every person has a right to keep and bear arms," and a felon claiming that right to keep and bear arms, do judges stick to the text, or try to strike a balance between it and the state's power to regulate criminal behavior -- even if it means drawing lines on their own? Michigan's courts, like most others, have repeatedly chosen the latter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/14/taking_liberties/entry5979201.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody
Mike

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Offline Mikey

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 03:47:28 AM »
Skunk:  what you have to understand about felons is that they are a step up the 'violence' ladder from the misnomeaner people who are usually non-violent or a lot less violent than felons.  Felons commit hard crimes, that why they are called felons and they are described as evil, villianous or wild.  This is a major step up from shoplifting, pot possession and other low key, less violent crimes such as those of assault with intent.  Felonies include murder.

You really don't want felons to have guns, period.  I have interviewed and evaluated lots and lots of felons in both jail/prison and mental health facilities and I kin tellya from experience that the only gun around those people should be the one in your hand aimed at their heads.  Felons often show little remorse for their actions, unless prompted by their defense lawyer, and often state they would commit the same acts again.  You don't want felons to have guns. 

Felons are dangerous people.  They often revel in having or letting others know how dangerous they are.  Those I have evaluated for continued mental health treatment often made the mistake of getting into my face when I questioned them about their actions and far too often wound up threatening me if I thought to send them to prison and take them out of the comfort of a cushy mental health facility.  I would sit there and act somewhat 'taken aback' by their personal affront, then give the signal to the Security Guards or Jail Guards to take them into custody (that is, cuff'm up) and then inform the treatment team that was present that the 'patient' is more in need of a correctional facility than a mental health facility and never got any contention about my decisions from the treatment team.  The felon, on the other hand. usually threw a fit, got violent or tried to with the guards and was quickly sedated - but not too quickly to prevent me from letting them know directly why I had decided to put them in prison rather than to leave them in a comfortable non-violent setting (that would soon discharge them back to the street).  You don't want felons to have guns.

Oh yeah - almost forgot the number of messages left on my answering machine over a 33 year period by felon family members who would threaten to kill me, burn my house, murder my wife and children or turn them into coked up street hookers because I sent their 'loved one' to prison.  At least they were smart enough not to threaten my dogs.......... You don't want felons to have guns, period.  Nuff said............

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 03:56:23 AM »
With Mikey on this one.  Spent a lifetime in law enforcement, and for every felon like Martha Stuart that you know is not a threat,  there are another 99 that can / would be.  For the few felons that are good people inside, sorry, but it goes with commiting the crime...Honest peoples safety comes first......  You know, come to think of it, I don't think I would leave Martha alone with the family jewels for that matter...:)

Larry
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 04:02:26 AM »
If a non-dangerous fellon has done their time, like Martha Stewart, should they not be allowed to own.  What about embezzlement?  Non-violent, and did their time?  I can understand murderers, rapists, child molestors, armed robbers, etc. 

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 05:06:41 AM »
How about tax evasion?.  Pretty non violent.  Oh Yea, isn't that what Al Capone went to jail for?.... :o :o
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Offline Skunk

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 07:03:24 AM »
Excellent points about the violent crime felons. I'm not in favor of these types of felons owning firearms of any type and I'm with Mikey's assessment that the only gun around those people should be the one in your hand aimed at their heads.

Bigeasy makes a great point that for every felon like Martha Stuart, there are another 99 that can/would be. In this case, I guess its the guy/gal that falls through the cracks in our justice system that bothers me. In certain cases, I have to go with Dixie Dude.

For example, I know a guy that got into trouble with a 17-year-old girl. The guy was 19 at the time and he had sexual relationships with the girl, with her overwhelming consent. The girl was fine with it, but the girl's mother was not. The mother raised hell with the police and the courts and ultimately the guy ended up going to prison for 2 years, and for the rest of his life he'll be labeled a child molesting pervert whose residence can be looked up on a google map. Not to mention he'll never again be able to legally own a firearm. What he did with the girl was indeed wrong, but he paid his time for the error by spending 2 years in the Waupun State Penitentiary in Wisconsin. I've known this guy for his entire life and can say that he is not a person who fits the mold of a dangerous felon. He had always been a hunter and when he found out that he could no longer own a firearm for deer gun season and for duck hunting and partridge hunting, I think it was worse on him than knowing he was going to prison. He did wrong, he payed the price, he's never been in any trouble with the law since, now give the guy back his gun and let him hunt.
Mike

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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 07:27:03 AM »
Actually, each state is different in their application of restrictions on convicted felons.  On the federal level, for a federal conviction - no guns.  Some states allow for restoration of this right via a court hearing, when the charge is a state felony.  And yea, the system is not perfect.  But it is designed to protect innocent people, who's rights come first.  I wouldn't have a problem for a one time felon offender, in a non violent, non predatory type crime, being allowed a court hearing for the restoration of the right to own firearms after say, a 8 or 10 year waiting period, after release.  Sort of like a parole board - You go in with the cards stacked against you, and you prove your case that you have changed....

Larry
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Offline Skunk

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 08:02:39 AM »
Quote
Actually, each state is different in their application of restrictions on convicted felons.

True, and in the case of the guy in the above post, he is still allowed by Wisconsin law to bow hunt and fish. But a bows and fishing poles don't make for effective weapons to protect his family.

Quote
I wouldn't have a problem for a one time felon offender, in a non violent, non predatory type crime, being allowed a court hearing for the restoration of the right to own firearms after say, a 8 or 10 year waiting period, after release.  Sort of like a parole board - You go in with the cards stacked against you, and you prove your case that you have changed....

I think that would be a good compromise for some felons (maybe not all) who committed "non violent, non predatory type crimes." They'd at least have a chance to state their case.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 10:43:24 AM »
In Illinois if you are convicted of a non-violent felony you can go through an appeal process and get your foid card reinstated.

 I think this type of relief should be available and done on a case by case basis.
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 11:24:00 AM »
On the federal level, for a federal conviction - no guns. 
Be very careful on this point.  I don't do this type of work, and I'm not giving any type of researched opinion, but I think both you and GRIMJIM below are wrong.  My reading of the federal statute (922(g)(1)) would include any court, meaning that he may still be subject to the federal law regardless of whatever hearing has taken place...  It has always been my understanding that in most states there is concurrent jursidiction to pursue FIP cases, meaning that the Feds may take the case if they so choose.  I do NOT believe it requires a FEDERAL prior conviction.

Perhaps someone here knows more on the subject?  I would advise anyone with this type of issue to speak with an attorney who handles these types of issues.  You do not want to run afoul of federal law.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 12:00:12 PM »
Skunk, I know of two people with a similar situation.  Both hunt with blackpowder rifles and pistols and bows.  One has been reinstated in Missouri where it took place.  The other guy went to prison for making out with his girlfriend who was underage and he was 18.  Went to prison for it because her dad caught them.  Never been in trouble since.  Sad situation. 

Offline Black Eagle

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 05:34:42 AM »
I've been a criminal defense lawyer since before some of you were born [33 years]. On felon in possession issues, as a general rule, state law can be more restrictive than federal law but not less restrictive than section 922.  Under federal law, Martha Stuart CAN purchase and possess a firearm because crimes involving securities fraud, insider trading, etc are exempt from the prohibition. It is the only class of felonies that I know of that is exempt.  However, some state laws may still prohibit her from purchasing and possessing a firearm if the state law doesn't exempt securities law violations. dukkillr is right and the states and the feds have concurrent jurisdiction over FIP cases. [We usually, but not always, want our FIP clients pulled into the federal system because prison time is generally mandatory and federal time is a lot more comfortable than living in the squalor of some of these state pens.]

There is a process for getting the right to possess a firearm restored after a felony conviction and I've done it for a couple of clients including one very violent offender. [I won't do that work anymore but only because going through the process is a collosal pain in the butt and that one case can eat up all of your time.] I am of the opinion that once a person has "paid his/her debt to society," that is, he has completely served his time, that there should be no restrictions on the right to possess firearms. But, that is not the America we live in.  Our society holds a perpetual grudge and we want these people to pay for any felony for the rest of their lives even if they don't pose any continuing risk. So be it. I'm old and tired and I no longer care how Americans treat each other.

Offline Skunk

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2009, 06:40:01 AM »
Black Eagle,

Welcome to GBO and thank you for your input on this topic. We are very fortunate to have folks like you and Dukkillr that give us an actual professional opinion.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2009, 06:44:37 AM »
I'm not a lawyer, so I may be wrong about certian states haveing mechanisims for restoration of gun rights for prior felon convictions, but I was pretty sure I was correct....  By the way, state laws legalizing pot for medical use, for example, is an example of state law providing lesser penalty then Title 18, Fed law....
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Offline Black Eagle

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2009, 07:15:41 AM »
Thanks for the welcome.  

I know I am too verbose but I want to address what dukkillr said for a minute because he is dead right. A lot of people get their rights restored under state law and think everything is just fine -- until BATFE knocks at their door. Unless the feds have restored the right, FIP is still a violation of federal law. I'll tell you about a case going on right now that a friend of mine is handling. A guy has a restarining order pending against him from a domestic case. The restraining order was made "permanent" by the judge. The client was a long-time hunter who lived on the western slope of Colorado. When the RO was entered, he lost his right to possess guns under both state and federal law. He moved across the state and has lived for ten years without ever going near the woman who got the restraining order. The state agreed that, despite the RO, he would be allowed to possess firearms and he promptly bought a couple rifles. The woman learned that the state had absolved him of the restriction, and being the bitter woman that she was, she called BATFE who promptly showed up on his doorstep, arrested him, and seized [and destroyed] his rifles.  The US Attorney agreed to dismiss the criminal case, although he didn't have to and could have gotten a conviction, but the US Attorney thought it was unfair. [Good US Attorney]. However, he was told by the feds not to even think of going near a firearm again, no matter what the state says, because if he does, they will bust him again and imprison him as long as the RO was in place. [The problem has now been solved because his lawyer ran out to Aspen, Colorado, and after four days of trial and $60,000 in attorney's fees, she got the "permanent" restraining order set aside. Now the guy us dead broke but if ever gets some money again, he can buy guns under both state and federal law.]

Offline Black Eagle

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2009, 07:39:10 AM »
By the way, Bigeasy, you brought up an interesting subject. Several states have legalized "medical marijuana" but during the Bush Admin, the feds still enforced the federal laws against it. There was a lot of fuss and furor over this but the feds always won.  When Obama was elected, and Eric Holder was appointed USAG [I know Eric and I actually like him a lot even though he is no friend to gunowners] Holder announced that he was not going to enforce the federal laws against medical marijuana and he hasn't.  He has told federal law enforcement, and particularly the DEA, to leave the state licensed dispensaries alone. I told an acquaintance just the other day, who got a license to grow and sell medical marijuana from the state, to make all the money he can in the the next three years because if a Republican president is elected next time, he will be out of business.  ;D

On possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use, the feds usually defer to state law. Possession of small amounts is just too common and too big a nuisance to prosecute in federal courts. It would clog up the entire federal system. States like Colorado generally impose only a $15 fine for possession of less than an ounce and the federal judges are generally happy not to be overwhelmed with petty marijuana cases.  [Sorry for being too talkative and vering off the subject gun possession.  ;D ]

Offline mechanic

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2009, 04:49:22 PM »
In Ga. if the felony was NON VIOLENT and 7 yrs. have passed, then a judge can expunge the record so a person can own a firearm.  Violent felons can never regain that right to my knowledge.  This is what I was told by a friend who stole a car as a teen ager, and in his 50's got his rights restored.....
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Offline Bush Master

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 11:27:42 AM »
As far as no guns for felons, I agree with David Codrea. If a person can't be trusted after they have paid their "debt" to society, then they shouldn't be let out of prison.

Offline Casull

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 11:46:34 AM »
Quote
I am of the opinion that once a person has "paid his/her debt to society," that is, he has completely served his time, that there should be no restrictions on the right to possess firearms.

Quote
As far as no guns for felons, I agree with David Codrea. If a person can't be trusted after they have paid their "debt" to society, then they shouldn't be let out of prison.


This is where I disagree with a few others on here.  Losing the right to possess a firearm after conviction for a felony is part of the "debt" to society.  It is the law prior to committing the felony and therefore part of the punishment.  Just because someone has served the prison sentence portion of the punishment doesn't mean he or she has "paid their debt to society".  There can be, and often is, more than one punishment for a crime (think fines and imprisonment).  As long as it is the law at the time the felony is committed, I have no problem with it.  If enough people don't like the law, they can seek to change it.
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Offline Skunk

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 11:58:33 AM »
In Ga. if the felony was NON VIOLENT and 7 yrs. have passed, then a judge can expunge the record so a person can own a firearm.

Wisconsin seems to be very strict when it comes to having a record expunged. If I'm not mistaken, records can only be expunged in cases of juvenile misdemeanor convictions. In addition, the record can be expunged only if the crime carried a maximum sentence of imprisonment for one year or less in the county jail. In other words, if it was a felony, or you were sent to the big house, forget it, the record stays with you for life.
Mike

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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2009, 01:34:31 AM »
Minnesota is another state where state law drops the prohibition for fwlons owning firearms, I believe it is on completion of sentence on non violent felonies and after 10 years of compltion of sentence on violent felonies. Also voting rights are restored on completion of sentence. I have also wondered how federal law had worked on this, I always figured Federal; superceded state law. In reading the form you fill out when buying a firearm, on the back it goes into being convicted of a felonie and having rights restored. Interesting discussion here.
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2010, 02:24:45 AM »
Quote
This is where I disagree with a few others on here.  Losing the right to possess a firearm after conviction for a felony is part of the "debt" to society.  It is the law prior to committing the felony and therefore part of the punishment.  Just because someone has served the prison sentence portion of the punishment doesn't mean he or she has "paid their debt to society".  There can be, and often is, more than one punishment for a crime (think fines and imprisonment).  As long as it is the law at the time the felony is committed, I have no problem with it.  If enough people don't like the law, they can seek to change it.


+1

Excellent post.  The recidivism rate for felons is very high.  I do not want a felon, especially a violent felon, to ever be able to legally own a gun.

Offline markp

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 06:47:20 AM »
Fasinating post !  If there is a process for a  one time felon convicted of a non-violent crime to apply
to have his rights reinstated after a 10 yr or some length waiting peroid where he has to prove he is not
a threat then thats all a felon could resonable ask for or expect. 

Crimes do have legal consequences and this is as it should be.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Michigan Court Upholds No-Guns-For-Felons State Law
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 07:43:02 AM »
ON THIS TOPIC, there's room for lot of 'on the other hand...'

I don't like the idea that people who have served their time, do not get their rights restored. The right to bear arms is enshrined as a right in our constitution. Perhaps we should deny these former 'felons' all those other rights?

I think that a tactic of the gun-grabbers is to 1)marginalize gun owner, like the folks who frequent this forum; and 2) increase the number of things that will 'disqualify' on from owning a firearm, and so make it more and more a de facto privilege rather than a right. You might be surprised at the kind of thing that can be a felony.

Example: If you piss off a flight attendent these days, you can be charged with Interfering with a flight crew - a felony - and sent to prison for 20 years. Of course, you'll be able to go to trial, after learning that the law is structured so you're screwed soon as they charge you, and you'll be up against the state which has unlimited resources and no risk, while you'll risk everything to defend yourself.

Lots of statutes like that, we can expect more.

Nope - once a guy has paid his debt, he's paid it - it should be over and done with.

In some way, America really does suck these days.
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